Is Lenin in the house?

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taxirank
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Feb 10 2013 03:44
Is Lenin in the house?

I have tried to begin this debate in other threads, but there has been no real response to it, so I am trying to get discussion going by beginning a thread. The purpose of this is to get some reasoned contributions to thought which address a controversial idea. I find this idea confronting and provocative, and I have not worked to the end of it yet. Treat my assertions as the bones of my hypothesis. (By hypothesis here, I mean a reasonable or apparently logical idea needing investigation.)

Gramsci, before Adorno, Horkheimer and Marcuse, developed the concept of cultural hegemony. Following Lenin, who argued that the working class needed to develop its own emergent alternative hegemonic practices to combat the hegemony of the ruling class, Gramsci developed the concept of cultural hegemony to formulate a strategy by which a revolutionary working class movement could be built (but it was never as coherent as Trotsky’s theory). Gramsci’s formulations, aided by Lukacs, preceded those of Adorno, Horkheimer and Marcuse, and found fertile soil in the radical student movements of the 1960’s and 1970’s as well as profoundly influencing a large portion of the academic establishment, in the UK at least (‘history from below,’ etc). This influence, I would argue, is now apparent across libertarian communist, anarchist and ultra-left circles. It has been assisted by the work of such people as Adorno and Marcuse, and other modern pioneers of the social sciences.

In Gramscian terms, the cultural hegemony of the bourgeoisie forms the accepted precepts by which society under capitalism lives – but these precepts and ways of doing things are not necessarily correct or infallible. Therefore, it is valid, in Leninist terms, to propose a counter-hegemony. It is valid to try to create a movement amongst people which challenges the dominant social ideas and structures.

This, then, is more than simply a call for eruptions of class warfare - it is the conscious building of a real movement. It is a theoretical formation which came out of the split in the Comintern (the Communist International) in 1921 when the ‘Theory of the Offensive’ (an insurrectionist stance supported by Bukharin and Zinoviev in Russia) was put into disrepute by Communist leaders, such as Trotsky, who then properly began working out the concept of ‘the United Front’ (which is basically a more coherent version of Gramsci’s war of manoeuvre and war of position). The formulation of concepts such as The United Front, and the War of Position and Manoeuvre, by both Gramsci and Trotsky, were part of the Comintern’s, and Lenin’s, attack on the Left Communists and Vulgar Marxists (the Economic Determinists).

Was it Lenin who really kicked off the whole arena of cultural theory? If so, then he did this in his rejection of economic determinism and in his attacks on those elements in the left who tried to preserve some faith in the creative potential of untutored workers. (Unfortunately, those leftists who had faith in workers never got far enough from Lenin theoretically to be able to develop their ideas into a truly negative critique of existing conditions. Their faith in workers was always as misplaced as the lie that they would never act on the behalf of others.)

Gramsci argues that in order for any social class to achieve dominance in society it must go beyond its economic interests. Therefore, the bourgeoisie have attained dominance not only through their control of economic factors, but also through control of cultural and intellectual factors. Gramsci suggests that through wars of manoeuvre and position (Trotsky’s United Front), and through the building of working class influence in all sectors, the revolution, aided by military conquest, can be won. How do Libertarian Communists escape this Gramscian logic in theory and in practice? Do they escape it, or is their distance from Leninism a delusion?

Is it the case that Libertarian Communists, Anarchists, Anarcho-Syndicalists and Ultra-Leftists adhere to the same principles: building a nascent working class hegemonic, or historical, bloc? Or do they adhere more to the incoherent praxis of the Left Communists and Vulgar Marxists, who were unable, in the final analysis, to oppose Leninism? Why were the oppositions to Leninism so weak? Why have these oppositions continued to be weak – even in the era in which Leninism in the West has been marginalised? Why do all the solutions of the Libertarian Communists, Anarchists and Ultra-Leftists seem to turn out to be Leninist? Is the problem something to do with continuing to offer solutions?

Libertarian Communists et al persist in promising the imminent end of capitalism, revealing its fatal flaws and cracks - ‘Its coming comrades, hold fast’ - and they persist in talking about winning, about building a movement, that will ‘win’. This is always just about to happen, or just around the corner. And yet, when one asks: so what is the plan? There is nothing really substantial, and those asked are quick to point out that they don’t actually have any blueprints. But didn’t they just say that capitalism was about to crash down and we were going to win? Is this still the essence of the weak theory which led so many good people to help set up the Leninist State?

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Feb 10 2013 04:17

Did I just enter the libcom time machine?

batswill
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Feb 10 2013 05:07

A good rave. A fusion of desires constitutes an association, no matter the chronological time piece, the essential quality of an idea emerges, no?
Capitalism is a continuously crashing event and until a barrier is erected to stop its exponential rape of this world, well, these are issues which come down to over-population, sorry, I'm throwing ethics out the door, and also Zerzan, I want technology but I don't like crowds hah!
If I was a benevolent dictator I would have it working very well.

taxirank
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Feb 10 2013 06:53

What I presume, if I may be so presumptious, that Batswill is saying, is: 'our project', just like Lenin's, is one of creating a benevolent dictatorship. I like this metaphor.

One way to begin to defy the route to advocating a benevolent dictatorship through soviets and councils of self-management, etc, is to try to be more anarchist than Marxist... but even this, sadly, is not, and has never been, enough.

carver
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Feb 10 2013 08:52

Down with Gramsi-Adorno-Horkheimer-Marcuse-Trotsky-Lenin-libertarian-communist-anarchist-anarcho-syndicalism!

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Feb 10 2013 11:23

purity standards violated wink

taxirank
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Feb 10 2013 20:22

I did not cite Adorno, I critcised him - specifically his part in the creation of modern social and cultural theory.

I see from the posts below (and just above) that this thread has been 'derailed' so that it could be put in Libcommunity. Interesting that the Libcom Administrators would allow this to happen.

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Feb 11 2013 16:18

p.s.:everyone knows, since a groundbreaking verdict by the International Ochlarchist Anarchist Tribunal, that LibCom is an Anarchist Ochlarchist front (for whomever)

p.p.s.: after reading Gramsci, Gorz, Marcuse, etc., simply wash your hands with soap, wipe screen or book with a sterilized piece of cloth and pray to Saint Max for forgiveness and you will stay purified and go to heaven

p.p.p.s.: libcommunity!

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Feb 10 2013 16:38
Quote:
How do Libertarian Communists escape this Gramscian logic in theory and in practice? Do they escape it, or is their distance from Leninism a delusion?

Gramscian cultural hegemony theory doesn't have much with Leninism, nor does LibCom have much with Leninism, but anarchist do share Gramscian values.

Gramscian idea was that the working people must firsly do a cultural revolution (war of position) which was basically understood as the ideas of atheism, sex revolution, cosmopolitanism, anti-work and recreational intoxication spreading among the people, and after that succeeded, the exploited people would not be bound by values of essential (/personal) ethics to the bourgeoisie, and they would then be free to also make the break with the bourgeois existential (/inter-personal) ethics by waging war of manouvre, that is- the politico-economical revolution.

The values it propagates had after the WW2 become accepted by the entire anarchist movement, without much appealing to the name of Grasci, and were propagated in the universities by the Frakfurt school, spreading enough to be make a radical cultural shift of the western world an essential part of the civil movements of the 60's and 70's, and after that firstly accepted by Eurocommunism, and after the decisive success of the cultural revolution, it was accepted also by the entirety of the marxists.

The question then arose, if the workers are no longer bound by their previous social norms, why do they don't also revolt against the social organisation.

My view is that the idea itself is flawed, being that decadent values were always the lifestyle of the ruling class and thus accepting them is no act of defiance, and I also think that spreading of that lifestyle among the working people would only weaken us. There is also the theory that the system managed to controll the cultural shift and framed it so that it would result in such a form of 'alternative' values that would support, and not challenge the system, and this theory was espoused by Marcouse, Mandel and similar, as the idea of "repressive desublimation".

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Feb 10 2013 15:37
greenjuice wrote:
...nor does LibCom have much with Leninism,...

Thanks.

You may re-enter the commune again.

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Feb 10 2013 17:39

I don't know what "recreational intoxication spreading" is but it sounds like my kind of party.

~J.

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Feb 10 2013 18:05

How are you with guns, explosives, discipline, willingness to die and kill in a fight for a just cause? Medical attention? Know any arts/crafts to producte goods catering to people's basic need? Or your only revolutionary usefullness is geting drunk / stoned?

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Feb 10 2013 19:29

It's amazing how much of a boring fuck you manage to sound like.

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Feb 10 2013 19:55

SMOKING THAT BUTT IT MAKES YOU MATURE;
A SLAVE TO SEX AND YOU TELL ME YOU'RE PURE
YOU SLAM THAT BEER IT MAKES YOU A MAN
ILL TRY TO KEEP MY COOL BUT YOU BETTER.....
UNDERSTAND!!!!

Edited to Add: Shoulda actually quoted Earth Crisises 'the Discipline' to be more relevant to the subject matter.

XtruetilldeathX

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Feb 10 2013 20:54
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It's amazing how much of a boring fuck you manage to sound like.

And revolutionary war is all about fun.

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Feb 10 2013 21:10

if the anarchist FAQ had that quote from emma goldman about dancing would you change your view?

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Feb 10 2013 21:14

About what, that warfare is about fun?

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Feb 10 2013 22:49

Did I completely misunderstand your post or are you saying that

greenjuice wrote:
the ideas of atheism, sex revolution, cosmopolitanism, anti-work and recreational intoxication spreading among the people

are

greenjuice wrote:
decadent values

which

greenjuice wrote:
weaken us.

?

Not that I mean to take your words out of context, but I'd like to know if that's part of what you're saying.

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Feb 10 2013 22:32

IMO sexual revolution, intoxication culture and lazyness are bad, and people should practice at least epicurean ascetism if we are to have a successful revolution, or one at all.

radicalgraffiti
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Feb 10 2013 22:36

greenjuice this may interest you http://www.marxists.org/subject/anarchism/nechayev/catechism.htm

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Feb 10 2013 22:42

Nechayev went a little too far. If he was into stoicism, I could understand, but he really exaggerated.

I actually opened a thread asking if someone has some more recourses on that topic: http://libcom.org/forums/general/anarchism-ascetism-09012013

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Feb 10 2013 23:31
greenjuice wrote:
How are you with guns, explosives, discipline, willingness to die and kill in a fight for a just cause? Medical attention? Know any arts/crafts to producte goods catering to people's basic need? Or your only revolutionary usefullness is geting drunk / stoned?

Aye, my lack of skills in guerrilla warfare, medical care and handicrafts are clearly down to my use of recreational drugs.

~J.

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Feb 10 2013 23:34

Also this:

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Feb 11 2013 14:11

Some of my leftist friends binge drink and do "soft drugs", I drink a beer and smoke a joint here and there, but recreation is not the purpouse of our lives, as is for some other leftists in our city that we know, which are, as a rule, all revolutionary useless, both in spreading the ideology and practically- concerning the stuff I mentioned.

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Feb 11 2013 15:32

Fuck me you must really be annoying to be around Mr. preacher.

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Feb 11 2013 16:18
greenjuice wrote:
IMO sexual revolution, intoxication culture and lazyness are bad, and people should practice at least epicurean ascetism if we are to have a successful revolution, or one at all.

Well I'm a little shocked but more curious than anything. Are you saying that revolutionaries should never do things they enjoy because they distract from the revolution? In which case there should be a lot more things on your list. I don't know why you would think that getiing drunk or having sex was going to take up all jolasmo's time that he had no energy left to develop his skills in weaponry or first aid, unless you would make the same accusation if he said he enjoyed bowling and visiting museums. If you are equally critical of every other frivilous enjoyment that doesn't directly relate to revolutionary activity, then I think I understand although I wouldn't agree.

However you're use of the term decadent values implies something else. I'd like to know what this means. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you imply some hobbies will "weaken us" and others won't. So I'm interested in why, and why specifically these things.

The first thing you mention is atheism. I've heard many reasons why theism will weaken our revolutionary resolve and distract us, for example by giving us hope that God will sort our problems out for us so we don't need to take action ourselves. What are the reasons for opposing a lack of belief in Him?

Next the "sexual revolution". I'm not sure what you mean with this term but I'm assuming you don't think we should stop having sex. Should we only have sex every time we want to create another revolutionary? You mention monogamy on the other thread*, do you see any particular advantage in the sex we have always being with the same person? You haven't mentioned romance but I can see how relationships could be a lot more distracting than sex. Our love for another person might weaken our love for the cause, but whether or not we get off on our own or with other people seems neither here not there.

Cosmopolitanism just seems to be a way of thinking of things globally as opposed to getting stuck in a national identity. I can't think how this is a problem if we want an international revolution.

You say anti-work, and then later you say lazyness. As we would want the abolition of work as it currently exists I would expect anti-work to be an important part of a revolutionary perpective. Quite different to lazyness though. If I'm too lazy to get out of bed to visit a comrades picket line that's a problem, if I'm too lazy to put much effort into creating a profit for my boss then I don't see what the issue is. If I've worked so hard at making a profit for my boss that I can't find the energy to visit a comrades picket line then I think a certain amount of selective lazyness might have been beneficial.

Recreational intoxication is also different to an intoxication culture. I can see an argument for why a culture centered around working all week so we can afford to drink away the resulting stress every weekend isn't a recipe for a dynamic revolutionary movement, but I would blame the work more than the drink for this.

Apologies if these are a lot of questions. I've not come across these ideas before and I'd like to look at them more closely.

*I didn't find the thread you linked to particularly useful but am happy to continue the discussion there if people want to get back to the question of whether Lenin is or isn't in the house. Although I see we're in libcommunity now so maybe there's no need to be so particular.

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Feb 11 2013 17:31

Are you saying that revolutionaries should never do things they enjoy because they distract from the revolution?

We should do those things sparingly.

I don't know why you would think that getiing drunk or having sex was going to take up all jolasmo's time that he had no energy left to develop his skills in weaponry or first aid, unless you would make the same accusation if he said he enjoyed bowling and visiting museums.

I would think it because of what I saw, e.g. in the anarcho-syndicalist organisation in my city. They are utterly promiscuous, lazy and most important things in their lives are partying and getting intoxicated. And I'm pretty sure they don't do any sports and that they have never been in a museum or a theatre. Basically, they don't know shit about anything theoritecal or practical that would make them usefull for the revolutionary purpose.

The first thing you mention is atheism. I've heard many reasons why theism will weaken our revolutionary resolve and distract us, for example by giving us hope that God will sort our problems out for us so we don't need to take action ourselves. What are the reasons for opposing a lack of belief in Him?

IMO, both atheism and theism are negative, because they're fideistic. Agnosticism (/scepticism) and deism are rationalistic, and they should be accepted by people striving to what is true and good (like LibSoc e.g.).

You mention monogamy on the other thread*, do you see any particular advantage in the sex we have always being with the same person?

I see an advantage in sexual (toghether with general emotional) moderation, in helping development of will-power and intellectual values, whereas promiscuity IMO does the opposite.

As we would want the abolition of work as it currently exists I would expect anti-work to be an important part of a revolutionary perpective. Quite different to lazyness though.

I disagree. Firstly, if we want abolition of work "as it currectly exists" it doesn't follow from that that we need to abolish work in it's all forms. I want to abolish exploitation, not work.

And a lot of people today in general, and most people in the lefist movements in particular, are just plain lazy, e.g. other then a couple of my friends, I haven't met any leftist (in any organization that calls itself leftist, and I've hanged out with a few of such) that could do any construction or warehouse work.

To mention it, when I work such jobs and talk to colleages about LibSoc principles, most of them support the basic ideas, but when organizations are talked about, they are very oppossed to leftist movements, exactly because of the mentioned decadent lifestyles of their members, and lean toward rightist movements because of that, I've seen it on all blue-collar and gray-collar jobs I worked at.

Recreational intoxication is also different to an intoxication culture. I can see an argument for why a culture centered around working all week so we can afford to drink away the resulting stress every weekend isn't a recipe for a dynamic revolutionary movement, but I would blame the work more than the drink for this.

All the workering that I know that drink- they don't do drugs, and they drink far less (they don't get drunk) then the students that constitute the leftist (Marxist and LibSoc) movement where I live. What are they frustruted about, parents not buying them the new iPhone? They're frustrated because they're decatedent idiots.

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Feb 11 2013 18:03

"Why do all the solutions of the Libertarian Communists, Anarchists and Ultra-Leftists seem to turn out to be Leninist? Is the problem something to do with continuing to offer solutions?

Libertarian Communists et al persist in promising the imminent end of capitalism, revealing its fatal flaws and cracks - ‘Its coming comrades, hold fast’ - and they persist in talking about winning, about building a movement, that will ‘win’. This is always just about to happen, or just around the corner. And yet, when one asks: so what is the plan? There is nothing really substantial, and those asked are quick to point out that they don’t actually have any blueprints. But didn’t they just say that capitalism was about to crash down and we were going to win? Is this still the essence of the weak theory which led so many good people to help set up the Leninist State?"

Some good questions here. I can't speak for any of these groups, but I can say that what made me an anarchist is largely the idea that means cannot be divorced from ends. So it seems vital to me to ask awkward questions, try to avoid prejudice and to organise with other people in non-heirarchical ways, both for work (which I love) and agitation (which I can't help getting involved in somehow.) I get tempted to shortcuts myself when there is a tempting morsel on offer from working with bigger forces. I've never found I gained anything much from it unless I was prepared to shut my mouth and join the parade.

Not sorry if this seems too personal. I usually avoid quoting political philosphers in political discussions, partly because even if I've read them I can't remember the references, and partly because most of my political eduaction came from debating the whys and wherefores of religion, that brought me to the conclusion that no belief system is much good if it relies on following a creed and doesn't bring you down to first principles.

I'm a great believer in education without barriers. As for cultural hegemony, I'm against it, even in its most intellectually plausible flavours. I'm deeply interested in pop culture though, and tend to notice when it becomes more or less subversive. I have studied a little economics, and can't help noticing that capitalism has used up its credit along with too much of the earth's resources. If we can build awareness of local democracy, federalism and better workers' and community based economics we at least are improving our chances.

petey
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Feb 11 2013 20:23
Ernestine wrote:
Libertarian Communists et al persist in promising the imminent end of capitalism, revealing its fatal flaws and cracks - ‘Its coming comrades, hold fast’ - and they persist in talking about winning, about building a movement, that will ‘win’. This is always just about to happen, or just around the corner.

no they don't. the work and effort required and the possible failure are constant themes.

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Feb 11 2013 20:41

Careful petey, I didn't write that, I quoted from taxirank's original post, which was itself part of a question (you pillock!)

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Feb 12 2013 15:31
greenjuice wrote:
Are you saying that revolutionaries should never do things they enjoy because they distract from the revolution?

We should do those things sparingly.

I get you. So we should do things we enjoy sparingly but then that would include watching films, dancing, going bowling, playing board games, riding rollercoasters, etc. as well as the examples you gave of having sex and getting intoxicated.

greenjuice wrote:
I don't know why you would think that getiing drunk or having sex was going to take up all jolasmo's time that he had no energy left to develop his skills in weaponry or first aid, unless you would make the same accusation if he said he enjoyed bowling and visiting museums.

I would think it because of what I saw, e.g. in the anarcho-syndicalist organisation in my city. They are utterly promiscuous, lazy and most important things in their lives are partying and getting intoxicated. And I'm pretty sure they don't do any sports and that they have never been in a museum or a theatre. Basically, they don't know shit about anything theoritecal or practical that would make them usefull for the revolutionary purpose.

Here you've lost me again. I can see how sports might be good for a revolution, but not museums or theaters. I go to the gym because I want to be healthy because it's no fun being ill, I've gone to museums and theaters because I find them enjoyable. Likewise my motives for going to a party (or having sex, or drinking) were because I thought I'd have a good time. Maybe I should put more thought into what activities would make me "useful for the revolutionary purpose" but that's a seperate issue to the question of what I do for fun.

greenjuice wrote:
IMO, both atheism and theism are negative, because they're fideistic. Agnosticism (/scepticism) and deism are rationalistic, and they should be accepted by people striving to what is true and good (like LibSoc e.g.).

Ok but then I don't know why you mentioned atheism and not theism. I don't mean to be nitpicking but if your issue is with fideism then it's misleading to just criticise atheism. The dominant ideology seems to be a sort of watered down, secular theism so it would require quite a "cultural revolution" as such to get people on to something as rational as agnosticism. And deism isn't rational just because it claims to be, although I'd rather avoid going off on a tangent about the existence of God.

greenjuice wrote:
I see an advantage in sexual (toghether with general emotional) moderation, in helping development of will-power and intellectual values, whereas promiscuity IMO does the opposite.

Sexual and emotional moderation, I guess that would mean less sex and less feelings. I still don't see how monogamy is advantageous here. I get the impression that people in a relationship have more sex than people who are single and promiscuous. If you sleep next to someone every night you're likely to end up having sex a couple times a week at least, whereas if you have to go on the pull every time you want to have sex you'll be doing well to get some every second weekend (obviously people in numerous relationships are likely to do better, they would have to ration themselves a bit). If a revolutionary decides to limit the sex they have to once a month, so they can focus on developing their skills for the revolution, then I don't know why it matters if it's with the same or with a different person every month. In fact if they aim for emotional moderation then they are possibly better off not sleeping with the same person every month lest they get too attached and spend the month pining over them rather than developing their will-power and intellectual values. The sex revolution can only be advantageous in either case, as currently getting the same person to put out month after month requires putting in a lot of time and emotional effort to maintain the relationship, and pulling someone different every month requires hours spent chatting people up just to be rejected. All time that would be better spent on learning skills in weaponry, first aid, handicraft and political theory if only everyone was a bit easier.

greenjuice wrote:
I disagree. Firstly, if we want abolition of work "as it currectly exists" it doesn't follow from that that we need to abolish work in it's all forms. I want to abolish exploitation, not work.

And a lot of people today in general, and most people in the lefist movements in particular, are just plain lazy, e.g. other then a couple of my friends, I haven't met any leftist (in any organization that calls itself leftist, and I've hanged out with a few of such) that could do any construction or warehouse work.

On the left the term work often just means work as it currently exists and I don't think there's any reason to be at all proud (or ashamed) of the number of hours we spend a day being exploited. Also most of the anarchists in my hometown are in construction, and I've met a number who do warehouse work but I really don't think that having a job not in construction or warehouse work makes a person lazy. Not only that but when the only one benefitting from your hard work is your boss then I think it's fair enough to spend as much of your time at work hiding in the toilet, chatting or on cigarette breaks.

greenjuice wrote:
To mention it, when I work such jobs and talk to colleages about LibSoc principles, most of them support the basic ideas, but when organizations are talked about, they are very oppossed to leftist movements, exactly because of the mentioned decadent lifestyles of their members, and lean toward rightist movements because of that, I've seen it on all blue-collar and gray-collar jobs I worked at.

All the workering that I know that drink- they don't do drugs, and they drink far less (they don't get drunk) then the students that constitute the leftist (Marxist and LibSoc) movement where I live. What are they frustruted about, parents not buying them the new iPhone? They're frustrated because they're decatedent idiots.

The fact that some of the people you talk to judge people for what they do for fun isn't something to pander to and just divides the class more than anything. I've been in jobs with people who spent their whole weekend off their face on coke. The fact that ordinary people believe a lot of things about the left is neither here nor there. The other day my friend who works in a hospital told me he went to a protest on saturday afternoon and the shoppers walking past shouted "Get a job". Clearly the protesters and the shoppers were all not at work right then. Also sometimes the serious leftists who don't know how to have fun can be just as alienating if not more.

I really don't think we should be encouraging a judgemental attitude to what people do with their leisure time. I'm still confused about what makes one recreational activity decadent and one not. Maybe rather than promoting a set of ideas that labels some of these activities decadent and others not, you could encourage revolutionaries to dedicate six days of the week to doing only activities which make them useful for the revolutionary purpose, whether they enjoy it or not, like developing their intellect, their fighting skills etc etc, and on the seventh day everyone can spend the day doing what they like, and it's no one business whether they have a drug-fuelled orgy or a day at the funfair.

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