Material conditions necessary for socialism, communism

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Spikymike
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Apr 17 2011 13:04

I think that Marx, and then more so Engels and the mainstream workers movement theorists that followed, mudded the waters a good deal between 'the transition to communism', 'the lower phase of communism' and 'communism'.

In Marx's time, in what I referred to earlier in shorthand as a 'non-revolutionary' period, a period in which capital ruled for the most part only 'formally' and also far from 'globally', it was indeed difficult to imagine how there could be such a rapid and revolutionary shift from one mode of production and social organisation to another. Various schemas were put forward which, in retrospect, we can see enabled the continuation of quite basic features of an exchange economy and which also envisaged retention of much the same forms of labour and technology into the first stages of a new society. There is also, as seen in one of Graco's quotes from Marx above, the, perhaps understandable, assumption that there is need for a whole further period of industrial expansion in a form only partially disimilar from capitalism (continued work on creating the pre-conditions for communism not fulfilled by capitalism??). We can see here the origins, in theory at least, of subsequent state capitalist and workers self management proposals being sold as socialism or communism - some honestly and some not so honestly. But capitalism (and our understanding of technology and ecology) has moved on since those days and we can now abandon those notions of what amounted in practice to 'transitional societies' and look forward to a far more rapid process of change where any hangovers from capitalism are precisely in the superstructural and ideological sphere and not in the base sphere of the mode of production.

As to capitalism creating the material 'pre-conditions' for communism and the conundrum of how change is to happen 'consciously' without there being a change on the economic mode of production beforehand to be reflected in a changed consciousness, the point goes back to the dynamic and contradictory nature of capitalism which distinguishes it from previous class societies. A society which has to expand and change through the combined and interelated process of competition between conglomerations of capital and the class struggle between workers and capitalists. A contradictory process which creates fissures within it's social and economic fabric that allow through the practical experience of struggle, particularly in periods of severe crisis, both an awareness of the impossibillity of capitalism fulfilling human needs and also the potential for revolutionary change ( though inevitably starting with minorities who need to be active in the course of those struggles).There may be more than one set of ruling ideas, but not all ideas are the ruling ideas - though distinguishing which is which is not always easy it's true.

There is however nothing predetermined or guaranteed that this process will result in communism. The problem being that working class struggle is periodic, so that short of revolution, it will also play a part in modernising capitalism rather than undermining it and thus allowing it further leases of life. On top of that minority organisations of pro-revolutionaries are not immune to the 'ruling ideas' in any period and even more so in prolonged periods of low levels of working class struggle. The risk here is that even when struggle increases such organisations ( in their ideas, and in their organisational structure and practice) may be ill equiped to play a genuinely revolutionary role and may even play (as they have in the past) a reactionary one. In todays tiny and dispersed pro-revolutionary movement this is a particuar problem which I have addressed on other threads previously.

I've struggled to express myself well here but hopefully some points are a bit clearer than they were?

Zeronowhere
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Apr 17 2011 13:44
Quote:
I think that Marx, and then more so Engels and the mainstream workers movement theorists that followed, mudded the waters a good deal between 'the transition to communism', 'the lower phase of communism' and 'communism'.

I think that Marx was fairly clear here. He didn't even mention the 'lower-higher' distinction much, and when he did he was clear that it was a phase of communism in which commodity production had ceased to exist, as well as bringing up similar ideas in first illustrating socialist society in volume 1 of Capital, as well as the 'no more money than a theatre ticket' comment and such. In speaking of proletarian political rule, he brought up things such as the ten planks, and on the same lines the 'transitory measures' mentioned in the IWA report on inheritance and the demands of the French Workers' Party, which presupposed commodity production and capitalism. As he stated in the well-known letter on what he had discovered, the dictatorship of the proletariat constitutes the transition to socialism. He certainly never distinguished between 'communism' and 'the lower phase of communism', the latter being of course a phase of communism, and indeed he used the latter in illustrating socialism.

Quote:
We can see here the origins, in theory at least, of subsequent state capitalist and workers self management proposals being sold as socialism or communism - some honestly and some not so honestly.

I don't think that Proudhon's ideas may be put down entirely to the influence of Marx.

LBird
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Apr 17 2011 14:24
Zeronowhere wrote:
He certainly never distinguished between 'communism' and 'the lower phase of communism'...

But...

Marx wrote:
But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

I'm not sure that Marx was correct here, and I'm sympathetic to the views expressed on this board in support of an immediate transition from capitalism to (full) Communism, but I think we have to accept that there is some support from Marx for the argument in favour of a 'transition' phase, in which there will still be the need for some aspects of non-Communism (pay by work done, etc.)

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Alf
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Apr 17 2011 15:11

Technologically, perhaps, it will be easier to create communism on a global scale than in Marx's day. We have much smarter machines, and lots more of them. Plus we have had a crucial negative example showing why the notion of steering capitalism towards communism via state control will turn against us. On the other hand, we live in a world which has been deeply screwed up by the fact that capitalism has been around for far too long, leaving deep scars on consciousness and on nature itself. Even if the working class succeeds in making a world wide revolution which is not buried in a destructive civil war or desperate last ditch reactions by the bourgeoisie, you still have a huge task of reconstruction and reorganisation ahead of you, you still have the non-proletarian but non-exploiting classes to deal with, you still have all the problems both material and ideological inherited from the old system, and this is the soil on which 'all the old shit', above all the law of value and the development of alienated state forms, can rise again. I would say that this points to the inevitability of a transitional phase with absolutely no guarantee that we will reach the higher stages of communism. Otherwise, it looks like we are falling into a new version of the 'communism is inevitable' argument.

Graco
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Apr 24 2011 13:07

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Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 18 2011 04:56

Material
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conditions
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necessary for
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socialism,
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communism*

yoda's walking stick wrote:
Could anyone point me to some reading material on this subject, either by Marx/Engels, others, or both? smile

Thanks!

I wonder if yoda's walking stick is satisfied with how we have "answered" his question?
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*I would like to make this font larger than the regular size but not this big - it doesn't
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***seem that this site allows that - or do I just not know how to do it?

Zeronowhere
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Apr 18 2011 09:03
Quote:
But...

Yes, and he doesn't contrast the initial phase with communism, or 'full' communism, he rather discusses two phases which are both phases of communism. Communism is a mode of production, not of distribution.

LBird
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Apr 18 2011 10:27
Zeronowhere wrote:
Yes, and he doesn't contrast the initial phase with communism, or 'full' communism, he rather discusses two phases which are both phases of communism.

Well, Marx writes of a 'first' phase and a 'higher' phase of Communism, so I would think that he does distinguish "between 'communism' and 'the lower phase of communism'...".

I'm not sure that this issue can be avoided by playing with words or phrases. If you want to maintain your argument, I think it's better to say that you disagree with Marx on this point (or that he contradicted himself with other of his writings), rather than pretend he didn't make a distinction of some sort. Of course, this will have political implications...

FWIW, I think Marx was wrong on some issues, but it doesn't mean I throw out the baby with the bathwater. Disagreeing with him doesn't mean you can't be a Communist, or can't use his ideas to understand our society today.

Marx is a guide, not a god.

Zeronowhere
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Apr 18 2011 13:21
Quote:
Well, Marx writes of a 'first' phase and a 'higher' phase of Communism, so I would think that he does distinguish "between 'communism' and 'the lower phase of communism'...".

It is hardly playing with words to point out that the 'lower phase of communist society' is a 'phase of communist society' (Engels also associated this with different 'methods of distribution' in "socialist society"), and hence a 'communist society', and therefore that there is no distinction between 'communism' and the 'lower phase of communism'.

Edit: In any case, this is diverging from the point of the thread somewhat.

Spikymike
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Apr 18 2011 15:00

Yes 'Zeronowhere' but in reality you cannot have a capitalist mode of distribution co-existing with a communist mode of production.

The transition 'to communism' may be a lengthy troubled period, but it will still be a world dominated by value production and with the class struggle still raging. Any inroads would likely be limited to the kind of things we might experience now in terms of limitations on the ecesses of that rule but on a larger scale, (including limited changes to the mode of distribution perhaps?).

I think it is more helpful to think only in terms of a 'transition to communism' and 'communism'.

Once the communist mode of production and distribution are firmly rooted on a world scale then humanity can evolve on that basis but not before.

Graco is, as he seems to admit, more of a determinist than Marx, whilst leaning on a particular interpretation of a materialist conception of history originating with Marx.

This view of human thinking as a simple reflection of the economic mode of production - a one way process - assumes a level of totalitarian dominance which I do not myself recognise as reality. To the extent that it recognises class struggle as playing any role, this is viewed only as a closed loop enabling the continued modernisation and continuance of capitalism. It is true that this loop (though perhaps spriral might describe it better) exists, but there are potential tipping points at moments of crisis inherant in capitalism - short of the total collapse of the whole system., (though working class action might then engender such a collapse).

Spikymike
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Apr 21 2011 13:11

Whilst I carry on my private discussion with 'Graco' I thought I would mention two articles on 'communisation and crisis' and a critique of ' Dissident' by Peter Astrom in the current issue of 'Riff-Raff' mentioned elswhere, that interconnect with some of the issues raised by 'graco' here.

See: http://riff-raff.se in english.

Noa Rodman
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Apr 22 2011 16:31

READ THIS YODA AND ALEXANDER

Ripeness for Socialism is not a condition which lends itself to statistical calculation before the proof can be put to the test. In any case, it is wrong, as so often happens in discussing this question, to put the material pre-requisites of Socialism too much in the foreground. No doubt, without a certain development of the large industry no Socialism is possible, but when it is asserted that Socialism would only become practicable when capitalism is no more in a position to expand, all proof of this is lacking. It is correct to say that Socialism would be the more easily realisable the more developed the large industry is, and therefore the more compact the productive forces are which must be socially organised.

Yet this is only relevant to the problem, when it is considered from the standpoint of a particular State. The simplification of the problem in this form is, however, counteracted by the fact that the growth of the large industry is accompanied by an expansion of its markets, the progress of the division of labour and of international communications, and therewith the constant widening and increasing complication of the problem of the social organisation of production. There is, indeed, no reason for believing that the organisation of the largest part of production for social ends, by the State, Municipalities, and Co-operative Societies, is not already possible in modern industrial States, with their banking facilities and their machinery for the conduct of businesses.

The decisive factor is no longer the material, but the personal one. Is the proletariat strong and intelligent enough to take in hand the regulation of society, that is, does it possess the power and the capacity to transfer democracy from politics to economics?

Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 23 2011 05:27
Noa Rodman wrote:
Ripeness for Socialism is not a condition which lends itself to statistical calculation before the proof can be put to the test.

What in the world does that mean?

Noa Rodman wrote:
In any case, it is wrong, as so often happens in discussing this question, to put the material pre-requisites of Socialism too much in the foreground.

Just exactly why is that?

Noa Rodman wrote:
.... when it is asserted that Socialism would only become practicable when capitalism is no more in a position to expand

Did I say it was? Did Yoda?

Noa Rodman wrote:
The simplification of the problem in this form is, however, counteracted by the fact that the growth of the large industry is accompanied by an expansion of its markets, the progress of the division of labour and of international communications, and therewith the constant widening and increasing complication of the problem of the social organisation of production. There is, indeed, no reason for believing that the organisation of the largest part of production for social ends, by the State, Municipalities, and Co-operative Societies, is not already possible in modern industrial States, with their banking facilities and their machinery for the conduct of businesses.

Gobble Gobble Gobble. What in the world does this mean? What is it related to?

Noa Rodman wrote:
The decisive factor is no longer the material, but the personal one. Is the proletariat strong and intelligent enough to take in hand the regulation of society, that is, does it possess the power and the capacity to transfer democracy from politics to economics?

The material is only no longer decisive when it is universal. I still believe that New Guinea has not reached the material level where it is ready for socialism. The "personal" people, or the "working class" of New Guinea will not be "ready" before the material conditions are, your cornfuzzed idealism notwithstanding.

Noa Rodman
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Apr 23 2011 11:27

It's obvious that Socialism isn't possible without the maturity of the proletariat. This can't be statistically calculated, but it is not therefor idealism. The proof must be put to the test. Without the maturity of the proletariat, even the most exact statistical figures about the material conditions won't bring socialism, hence the latter shouldn't be given to great a weight in discussing the prospects of socialism. By the way, those necessary material conditions are:

1) The break-up of simple commodity production. Under the system of small production those without property fall into two sections. For one of them, viz., apprentices and peasants’ sons, their lack of property is only a temporary condition. The members of this class expect one day to become possessors and have an interest in private property. The other section of the class without property are the vagabonds, who are unnecessary and even harmful parasites on society, without education, without self-consciousness, without cohesion. When a chance offers itself, they are quite ready to expropriate the possessors, but they neither want nor are able to construct a new social order.

2) The expansion of large scale industry. The latter entails a centralization of capital, relations between producers becoming more dependent/close/uniform, and an increasing growth of their number (as compared to capitalists). Sufficient strength to accomplish Socialism can only be expected from those whose interests lie that way, that is the proletarians.

Simple enough.

It was indeed not you Alex, but Garco who expressed the belief that "Socialism would only become practicable when capitalism is no more in a position to expand". Kautsky is opposed to such a position which holds that capitalism must enter a period of decline for socialism to be possible. He's right in my opinion to say that all proof for this is lacking.

Quote:
Gobble etc.

This is an important point. Kautsky says that it is a simplification to consider the problem of material conditions from the standpoint of a particular State as capitalism is international.

The modern industrial states at the time (1918) were "materially" ready for socialism. This fact makes the discussion on the pre-maturity of individual nations/regions of academic interest.

Harrison
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Apr 23 2011 11:52

i would argue that the most important aspect to the material conditions is technological conditions.

capitalism usually solves its long term problems through the application of some new technology. and its relentless drive for growth aims to sustain this constant search for new technology, because new problems always seem to emerge.

every day that goes by, our means of production grow more technologically advanced and more easily able to facilitate that material abundance necessary for socialism.

Marx's greatest contribution to the proletarian project was that capitalism (in the 19th century even) either had already, or was set very soon to develop the means of production to the point of being able to provide that material abundance.

in the 21st century i wouldn't worry about the material abundance any more!
its a question that capitalism has already solved for us.

GM crops especially demonstrate how ridiculously far we have passed the watershed of technological development necessary to facilitate the abundance.

Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 23 2011 23:59
Noa Rodman wrote:
The modern industrial states at the time (1918) were "materially" ready for socialism. This fact makes the discussion on the pre-maturity of individual nations/regions of academic interest.

So. The fact that Germany was materially ready for a proletarian socialist revolution in 1918 means that New Guinea is ready for one today?

You can't mean that.

I have to guess again just what it is you are saying -- but my guess is that what you mean is if Germany and if France and if Great Britian and if the United States and if Austrailia and if Canada and if Belgium and if Italy had proletarian socialist revolutions that New Guinea would be able to get socialism without being materially ready.

I'll buy that.

But what if they don't?

What should the people of New Guinea do in the meantime? Twiddle their thumbs?

That is the point. What do those parts of the earth that are "not ready" do "in the meantime" while waiting for those parts of the earth that are ready to get their act together?

Is that "academic"?

Noa Rodman
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Apr 24 2011 10:54

Even if there were revolutions in the core capitalist states, New Guinean people would have to be in favor of socialism. That's not the case.
Let's suppose they are in favor, now, in the absence of world revoltuion. The best they could do, considering the material conditions, is “bourgeois” economic progress and prepare the minds for socialism. I would say the New Guineans should, as good internationalists, send some of their best socialists organizers to the West and help the proletarians here, because they understand that's where the real work should be.

Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 24 2011 20:05
Noa Rodman wrote:
Let's suppose they [the workers of New Guinea] are in favor, now, in the absence of world revoltuion. The best they could do, considering the material conditions, is “bourgeois” economic progress and prepare the minds for socialism.

Wow !

Is this limited to New Guinea or are there other places on the earth besides New Guinea where this might be so?

How about China in 1949? How about India? How about Vietnam? How about Cuba in 1959? How about Nicaragua in 1979? How about other Third World countries?

Would you also have had them

Noa Rodman wrote:
"send some of their best socialists organizers to the West and help the proletarians here, because they understand that's where the real work should be" ?

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Apr 24 2011 20:28

Do we have proof that New Guinea would collapse over-night if global capitalism stopped functioning or is that just some straw man argument your making at the expense of New Guinea? I'm no expert on the place, are you?

I know there have been ecological issues in the place due to excessive logging (which also has entailed massive exploitation of Guinean labour) and a similar situation due to excessive mining of the mountains (mountains which are quite often considered sacred by some local tribes). I believe in situations like this, it is quite often foreign capitalists (from the over-industrialized centres) which are the ones doing the exploitation (Chevron, BP etc).

What does industrialism, capitalism and indeed socialism mean for the people in New Guinea at the moment?

Noa Rodman
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Apr 24 2011 22:19
Alex Roxwell wrote:
Wow !

Is this limited to New Guinea or are there other places on the earth besides New Guinea where this might be so?

How about China in 1949? How about India? How about Vietnam? How about Cuba in 1959? How about Nicaragua in 1979? How about other Third World countries?

No Marxist would dispute that those states lack(ed) material conditions. The socialist inspired third-world states are another matter (maybe also another thread). But as you raised it, I like to quote again from Kautsky as a comment on the desirability of certain of such kinds of third-world pathways.

Kautsky wrote:
capitalism is superior not only to the small industry of the guild craftsman, but also to large industry with compulsory labor, as well as every form of state economy based upon conscript labor. Every economy of this sort must be rejected in spite of the fact that it is not capitalist. I do not agree with Max Adler who, arguing against me, once said that “for a Marxist the duty to participate in and sympathize with every movement against capitalism is a moral axiom.”

Our duty is not merely to abolish the capitalist order but to set up a higher order in its place. But we must oppose those forces aiming to destroy capitalism only in order to replace it with another barbarous mode of production.

It is for this reason that the democratically minded portion of the working class must oppose all tendencies toward a dictatorship threatening the freedom of the workers, tendencies manifested not only by the capitalists but also such as originate with anti-capitalist groups.

Obviously he's talking about stalinist Russia, but it applies as well to China et al.

Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 25 2011 05:34

The point here, Noa, is that only some areas of the globe have the prerequisites for a proletarian socialist revolution, not every area.

When you go back in time - say to 1917 - only a very few areas of the globe have the prerequisites for a proletarian socialist revolution.

So what did people in those "unready" areas of the globe do when the workers in those areas of the globe did not make a proletarian socialist revolution?

Some of them made a peasant war which overthrew the remnants of the "feudal" or "Asiatic" or "tributary" pre-capitalist systems where they were and instituted a bastardized form of "half capitalism" which we know of under the personal names of their leaders since there is rampant disagreement on what their system actually was - e.g. Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Tito, Enver Hoxha, Kim il Sung and so on.

With all due respect to Karl Kautsky - but no undue respect - these were in fact advances for the popular classes in those countries just the same as was the French Revolution, the English Revolution, and so on.

It was the second wave of bourgeois national revolutions.

The first wave was rightly supported by Karl Marx.

The second wave must also be supported by all communists for exactly the same reasons.

The "flag" under which we support these "second wave" bourgeois national revolutions was in all cases stated above the "right of nations to self determination."

The stated "Stalinist" revolutions were only the most successful ones. Others were less successful. We should have supported them as well in their struggles with the "first wave" Empires.

Communists do not abstain from struggle just because they cannot force the revolution forward all the way to a proletarian socialist revolution.

LBird
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Apr 25 2011 08:20
Alexander Roxwell wrote:
Communists do not abstain from struggle just because they cannot force the revolution forward all the way to a proletarian socialist revolution.

Yes they do, Alexander, if the "struggle" is detrimental to workers' interests.

We first of all have to identify what a group of workers are struggling for, and then decide if we think it is in their class interests, rather than another class's interests, and that the workers involved are mistaken (by nationalism, for example). It is not enough to 'cheer on' all 'workers in struggle'.

Or is 'struggle' simply enough for you?

Mein Kampf? Some German workers were taken in by that - would you 'support' them, too?

Ever heard of critical thinking? And engaging with a discussion? Changing you mind?

Dave B
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Apr 25 2011 20:27

I think I will give a quote from Karl on the material conditions for communism with the indulgence of an interpretation.

Although he is talking to himself in Grundrisse and is projecting or extrapolating as to where this capitalism is going to take us.

However I think much of what he says here is implicit in his analysis of capital but it is harder to distil a snappy soundbite quote out of that, but not impossible.

I think what he saying in the Grundisse quote is that surplus value is being used to accumulate capital (machines etc) that progressively reduce the amount of labour time it takes to make stuff. Operating in tandem with technological developments or knowledge were understanding and controlling nature on its own can facilitate making stuff with less effort.

So he says as prescient as ever that;

Quote:
As soon as labour in the direct form has ceased to be the great well-spring of wealth, labour time ceases and must cease to be its measure, and hence exchange value [must cease to be the measure] of use value.

Well the proof is in the reading and the source; as much as the book Grundrisse is a use-value and my reading of it requires no exchange value of any real pecuniary consideration.

So what does happen when watches and unimaginable things like calculators and mobile phones can be obtained by or from productive workers for the hours that can be counted in a day?

No doubt the advertising industry steps in and convinces us of the desirability of things we would otherwise not recognise. In fact advertising is a gauge and measure of irrational want when it steps beyond advertising the novel existence and functionality of a commodity to stimulating a fetish requirement for it.

Socialism requires the potential for Material abundance and a socialist Consciousness or voluntary labour and the two operate together in tandem and the poverty of one can make up for the lack of the other.

So if;

S = Socialism

M= Material abundance

C = Consciousness

Then;

S = M x C

If M is at its maximum, as with replicators, in star trek then a money-less society is a bit of a no brainer and hopefully consciousness will come along on its own tagging along behind the more material ‘Material abundance’.

Anyway;

Contradiction between the foundation of bourgeois production (value as measure) and its development. Machines etc.

Quote:
The exchange of living labour for objectified labour – i.e. the positing of social labour in the form of the contradiction of capital and wage labour – is the ultimate development of the value-relation and of production resting on value. Its presupposition is – and remains – the mass of direct labour time, the quantity of labour employed, as the determinant factor in the production of wealth. But to the degree that large industry develops, the creation of real wealth comes to depend less on labour time and on the amount of labour employed than on the power of the agencies set in motion during labour time, whose ‘powerful effectiveness’ is itself in turn out of all proportion to the direct labour time spent on their production, but depends rather on the general state of science and on the progress of technology, or the application of this science to production. (The development of this science, especially natural science, and all others with the latter, is itself in turn related to the development of material production.) Agriculture, e.g., becomes merely the application of the science of material metabolism, its regulation for the greatest advantage of the entire body of society. Real wealth manifests itself, rather – and large industry reveals this – in the monstrous disproportion between the labour time applied, and its product, as well as in the qualitative imbalance between labour, reduced to a pure abstraction, and the power of the production process it superintends.

Labour no longer appears so much to be included within the production process; rather, the human being comes to relate more as watchman and regulator to the production process itself. (What holds for machinery holds likewise for the combination of human activities and the development of human intercourse.) No longer does the worker insert a modified natural thing [Naturgegenstand] as middle link between the object [Objekt] and himself; rather, he inserts the process of nature, transformed into an industrial process, as a means between himself and inorganic nature, mastering it. He steps to the side of the production process instead of being its chief actor. In this transformation, it is neither the direct human labour he himself performs, nor the time during which he works, but rather the appropriation of his own general productive power, his understanding of nature and his mastery over it by virtue of his presence as a social body – it is, in a word, the development of the social individual which appears as the great foundation-stone of production and of wealth.

The theft of alien labour time, on which the present wealth is based, appears a miserable foundation in face of this new one, created by large-scale industry itself. As soon as labour in the direct form has ceased to be the great well-spring of wealth, labour time ceases and must cease to be its measure, and hence exchange value [must cease to be the measure] of use value. The surplus labour of the mass has ceased to be the condition for the development of general wealth, just as the non-labour of the few, for the development of the general powers of the human head. With that, production based on exchange value breaks down, and the direct, material production process is stripped of the form of penury and antithesis. The free development of individualities, and hence not the reduction of necessary labour time so as to posit surplus labour, but rather the general reduction of the necessary labour of society to a minimum, which then corresponds to the artistic, scientific etc. development of the individuals in the time set free, and with the means created, for all of them.

Capital itself is the moving contradiction, [in] that it presses to reduce labour time to a minimum, while it posits labour time, on the other side, as sole measure and source of wealth. Hence it diminishes labour time in the necessary form so as to increase it in the superfluous form; hence posits the superfluous in growing measure as a condition – question of life or death – for the necessary. On the one side, then, it calls to life all the powers of science and of nature, as of social combination and of social intercourse, in order to make the creation of wealth independent (relatively) of the labour time employed on it. On the other side, it wants to use labour time as the measuring rod for the giant social forces thereby created, and to confine them within the limits required to maintain the already created value as value. Forces of production and social relations – two different sides of the development of the social individual – appear to capital as mere means, and are merely means for it to produce on its limited foundation. In fact, however, they are the material conditions to blow this foundation sky-high. ‘Truly wealthy a nation, when the working day is 6 rather than 12 hours. Wealth is not command over surplus labour time’ (real wealth), ‘but rather, disposable time outside that needed in direct production, for every individual and the whole society.’ (The Source and Remedy etc. 1821, p. 6.)

Nature builds no machines, no locomotives, railways, electric telegraphs, self-acting mules etc. These are products of human industry; natural material transformed into organs of the human will over nature, or of human participation in nature. They are organs of the human brain, created by the human hand; the power of knowledge, objectified. The development of fixed capital indicates to what degree general social knowledge has become a direct force of production, and to what degree, hence, the conditions of the process of social life itself have come under the control of the general intellect and been transformed in accordance with it. To what degree the powers of social production have been produced, not only in the form of knowledge, but also as immediate organs of social practice, of the real life process.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch14.htm

And from the scumbag Kautksy;

Karl Kautsky The Labour Revolution
III. The Economic Revolution X. MONEY

Quote:
Besides this rigid allocation of an equal measure of the necessaries and enjoyments of life to each individual, another form of Socialism without money is conceivable, the Leninite interpretation of what Marx described as the second phase of communism: each to produce of his own accord as much as he can, the productivity of labour being so high and the quantity and variety of products so immense that everyone may be trusted to take what he needs. For this purpose money would not be needed.

We have not yet progressed so far as this. At present we are unable to divine whether we shall ever reach this state. But that Socialism with which we are alone concerned to-day, whose features we can discern with some precision from the indications that already exist, will unfortunately not have this enviable freedom and abundance at its disposal, and will therefore not be able to do without money.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1924/labour/ch03_j.htm#sb

Is this CAPTCHA system designed to keep dyslexics like myself from posting on libcom?

Noa Rodman
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Apr 25 2011 22:03
Quote:
the Leninite interpretation

grin

Noa Rodman
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Apr 25 2011 22:07

To return to the topic, I have Georgia on My Mind. It was a majority peasant country, but yet the socialists were in power, so what did they do?

Kautsky wrote:
The Agrarian Reform was introduced by a decree of the 16th December 1917 of the first provisional government in Transcaucasia (Georgia, Aserbaijan and Armenia) which was formed after it’s separation from Russia. The Social-Democratic Party of the Transcaucasian Parliament, which met in February, 1918, introduced an Agrarian law which was passed on the 7th March. This was valid for the whole of Transcaucasia. But it was only carried out in Georgia, which soon separated from Aserbaijan and Armenia. The law expropriated every large landowner. No compensation was paid to him, but he was allowed to retain as much land as he could till, with his family, that is a medium-sized peasant holding.

This alone differs already from China 1949, where if I understand, millions of landowners were killed.

Dave B
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Apr 25 2011 22:27

Yeah that Georgia pamphlet was ‘interesting’ wasn’t it.

I think I dragged it up first.

Noa Rodman
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Apr 28 2011 11:13

From a bonehead Marxist who supported the right of nations to self-determination:

Kautsky wrote:
At this point it is only possible to spin an infinite web of speculation which would have no practical purpose because it can have no influence upon our present activity. For this we only need to know that spreading capitalism to backward countries is definitely not a requirement for the spread and victory of socialism.

But it would also be absolutely monstrous if the proletariat, which fights capitalism most sharply at home, were to set itself the task of giving it a clear passage in other countries. What would this mean? ... It is productive capital which is meant. But capitalist production is impossible without a proletariat. Bringing capitalism to the colonies means first that a proletariat has to be artificially created where there is none to hand, means the colonial labouring classes have to be expropriated and brought under the whip of capitalism. On the other hand, where a big enough proletariat already exists, it means that it has to be kept under the whip of capitalism, and the state power has to be asked to suppress every rebellion of the proletariat against capital. Capitalism cannot exist without a state power to protect capitalist exploitation. If we consider that capitalism is unavoidable in the colonies, it would be the task of the struggling, as well as the victorious, proletariat to place state power in the colonies at the disposal of capital!

Of course there are also people who assert that the proletariat must advance capitalism even in Europe, as this is a precondition of its own freedom. There is nothing more erroneous than this position. The building up of capitalism is the historical task of the capitalist class, and we can quite happily leave it this task. It will do justice to it under all circumstances as long as it controls the necessary power. And if it no longer controls this power – then it has become redundant with the loss of its power.

The historical task of the proletariat is from the start determined by its economic opposition to the capitalist class. It consists of the fight against capitalist exploitation and thus also against capitalism.

Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 28 2011 21:48

Thank you Noa Rodman for yet another quote from a totally discredited old ex-Marxist in his senile years. I do treasure the wit and wisdom of Karl Kautsky above and beyond the wit and wisdom of Spiro Agnew but I dare say his senile writings are not what they used to be.

Your statement made awhile back that you believe that any "Marxist revolutionaries" that might be found in New Guinea ought to abandon their homeland and come to one of the Western lands pretty much should have discredited your ideas for the immediate future but if you wish to buttress this with quotes from senile old Social Democrats be my guest.

The question remains just what you would have people in those Third World nations do while waiting for the proletarian socialist revolution in the industrialized nations.

You have already fully discredited yourself with your answer.

I wonder who else would agree with your proposal that they all move West or whether they have something else to say. I await the coming smoke and mirrors.

Noa Rodman
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Apr 29 2011 00:25
Quote:
The question remains just what you would have people in those Third World nations do while waiting for the proletarian socialist revolution in the industrialized nations.

If there's no proletarian socialist revolution then capitalism is unavoidable for them. What little they have of it must be fought by their workers, as for their peasants, they must struggle following the proletariat's guidance.

Alexander Roxwell
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Apr 29 2011 01:04

In other words the class struggle stops dead in its tracks.

The bad guys have an unchallenged field day while the "communists" advise that workers and peasants (and bedouins) "turn the other cheek" and quietly submit to their oppressors.

That is bankrupt.

Is it any wonder that your advice was not followed?