Is Patriarchy bigger than capital and the state?

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Raz Chaoten's picture
Raz Chaoten
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Jul 19 2012 02:01
Is Patriarchy bigger than capital and the state?

Patriarchy and Capitalism: If Patriarchy is a word to describe a hierarchical power structure dominated by men, then the bulk of the anti-capitalist project can be described as a fight against patriarchy.

Land and Freedom: The control of material objects is one of the defining characteristics of power. Privatising the commons means depriving others of material autonomy, forcing them into a state of dependency. In order to safeguard personal liberty, equal rights to the commons must be defended against any coercive minority that would declare it their private property.

When an individual, or group of individuals, seizes control of the commons and arranges social dynamics to perpetuate this control, they create a hierarchy – with themselves at the top, their functionaries below, and the dispossessed below them. Hierarchy is the germ of class society, which communists, socialists and anarchists wish to destroy, or so they say.

But looking at the hierarchical structures that have existed historically and which continue to perpetuate social relations based on private property, hierarchy, dispossession and all the oppression and exploitation they entail, it is impossible to deny that the huge majority have been dominated by men and that the small minority dominated by women, or relatively egalitarian, have tended to become annihilated by patriarchal structures.

Take a look at the institutions that comprise the current global order:

At the top, the global financial institutions: the IMF, World Bank, the various national private central banks such as the Bank of England, and the thousands of other international financial corporations. Though the present head of the IMF is a woman she sits in rooms everyday in which she is the only female there not serving drinks. It may be a generalisation to claim that the culture of the global capitalist class is inherently macho, sexist and patriarchal, but I have never seen evidence to the contrary. The stereotype most people have of the rich businessman – keeping a trophy wife at home amongst an army of low paid, mostly female domestic servants while clandestinely soliciting the services of sex workers and sexually harassing female underlings at the office – is evidently not far from the truth.

But more than this, and even more than the fact that they are institutions overwhelmingly owned by men, controlled by men and with all the astronomical profits going to men, they uphold patriarchy by enforcing the current neoliberal imperialist order. The financial class has all the world’s nation states in its grips, dictating policy to them, all for the benefit of banks and other private corporations, for the more capitalist businesses in general there are around, the more there is for the banks to invest in and profit from.
But what policy, and which corporations?

A policy of permanent war and economic restructuring under the cover of a spectacle of unceasing crisis. Corporations such as arms manufacturers, private militias, drug lords (whether officially legal or not), the builders of needless (and ugly) buildings, the purveyors toxic food, the demolishers of mountains, poisoners of water and mass murderers of trees. But not only these institutions, other are also kept up by the state, which are sometimes less directly profitable, though inventive ways of putting them directly into the hands of private capital are constantly being sought.

I am talking of the disciplinary institutions which the dispossessed are condemned to whenever they are not currently being exploited by a capitalist, and which train in them from birth the habits of docility, obedience and submission necessary for their intended waste of a life as wage-workers.

The schools, the “hospitals”, the army barracks, “charities” or state run “welfare” services, and of course, the form they are all modelled on, the Prison, itself modelled on the monastery. This is no surprise since organised religion itself has always played the vital role of keeping the oppressed meek.

All of these institutions which together make up the State-capitalist world order (the banks, governments, corporations, charities, schools, hospitals, prisons and organised religions) are hierarchical structures of control protecting the power and private property of a minority of men. They are all deliberately set up by these men, whether they admit it or not, to keep women, transsexuals and ‘effeminate’ men in submissive positions and promote amongst other men the values of machismo: competitiveness, aggressiveness, self-assertion, misogyny and homophobia.

These macho values are the glue that holds these hierarchies together, keeping the powerful men at the top and the men below them in a position of relative power over women as a compensation for a lack of power at the larger level. As master of the house, the man may forget that he is the slave of the factory.
And in the factory, or the school, or the army, he is indeed a slave, but even there not as much as the women who work the hardest jobs in the factory for the least pay and who the male union leaders and socialist politicians ignore, the girls at school who must not only be disciplined to the rigours of the household but also to those of the household and bedroom in which she is to be considered a mere plaything, or the millions of women raped by invading armies or left destitute and unprotected after the bombs have been dropped.

Make no mistake, this hyperexploitation, this shouldering of the burden for social reproduction onto women and this rape and collateral damage, translate directly into Euros, Pounds and Dollars. To speak of fighting capitalism, or the state, or even militarism, without explicitly recognising that they are all constituent parts of a broader and deeper system of oppression called patriarchy, is either wilfully deceptive or hopelessly ignorant and blind.

Without this recognition, when we liberate territory from the patriarchs, we will simply replace them with patriarchs from our own ranks, as so often happens. When male proletarians seek to organise against their oppression they will idly complain of their failure without recognising that the most numerous force of workers with the most to gain from class struggle and revolution are not part of their movement because they have no desire to add anarchist or socialist patriarchs to their list of oppressors.

Male proletarians desiring freedom from their boss or state would do well to reflect on who might desire freedom from them. In looking for allies in their struggle against the bourgeoisie they would do well to open their eyes and hearts to the militant struggles already long underway being waged not only against the bourgeoisie, but many other oppressors as well by women, queer and trans people the world over.
When they find themselves in a discussion on the nature of their oppression in any formal or informal setting where women, queer or trans people are present, they would do well to take care not to talk more than their fair share but to listen, in the hope that they might gain a richer understanding of what they are fighting from the perspective of one much more oppressed than they could ever be.

And of course, when male proletarians realise they are contributing to upholding patriarchy through their behaviour, the most important thing for them to do is to STOP IT. Changing yourself is a difficult process, but so is changing the world. We cannot expect freedom if we are not prepared to give it, especially not if we oppress our comrades that we should be fighting for freedom alongside.

For the destruction of Patriarchy, Male Privilege, Private Property and Machismo.

For an insurrectionary Anarcha Feminism and the liberation of the Commons.

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Jul 19 2012 07:54
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The schools, the “hospitals”, the army barracks, “charities” or state run “welfare” services, and of course, the form they are all modelled on, the Prison, itself modelled on the monastery.

Could you elaborate on this claim? I've studied a bit about the evolution of the prison, but I've never encountered the comparison with the monastery.

Raz Chaoten's picture
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Jul 21 2012 10:30

this comes from 'Discipline and Punish' by Michel Foucault, one of his most important works, tracing the history of the prison and showing the links between it's history and that of other "disciplinary" organisations such as all the ones i list. Before centralised state apparatus's were development many of their functions were carried out by church-run organisations: poor houses, hospitals, schools, etc, and monastic disciplinary methods naturally were applied by the workers who were themselves monks and nuns

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Jul 21 2012 11:50

Interesting post- couldn't absorb all of it. I'm going to state the obvious (not to be taken as criticism of the OP's position, as I agree with hir broad arguments).

People here agree we should fight patriarchy as a key front in the struggle against oppression and exploitation (and try and rid ourselves of our own patriarchal attitudes and behaviours).

When emphasising the fact that men tend to dominate most hierarchies we need to be clear that 'affirmative action' (quotas etc) to get more female/ trans bosses and capitalists is not a workable solution to combat patriarchy and the we need to struggle against all bosses and capital regardless of gender.

To my mind we don't need to label ourselves "anarcha-feminists" as anarchism should aim to put a stop to gender-based oppression and all other forms of oppression by default.

You mention Lagarde from the IMF. Of course if more hierarchies had women like her (or Thatcher) at the top patriarchy (or something very like it) and oppression would still exist.

I know you weren't arguing in favour of 'we need more non-male leaders' but I think sometimes if you say 'men dominate hierarchies' some people immediately assume that therefore all we need to do is make the top of the hierarchy more demographically diverse. I've had several female bosses and they treated me no better or worse than the male ones I've had (though of course if I wasn't male this may have been different).

We should recognise and critique patriarchy in a way which we doesn't advocate liberal identity politics... not that I think you're advocating identity politics.

As to whether patriarchy is 'bigger' than capital or the state- I dunno- but I think it probably preceded them and it permeates society (and our individual attitudes and behaviours) at every level as you say.

I think insurrectionist anarchism has to some extent internalised patriarchical attitudes like glorification of violence and macho attitudes. I also think that self-selecting informal insurrectionist groups lack 'accountability' and could more easily succumb to gender bias or domiation by macho elements (but having said that I do agree with some insurrectionist ideas where the circumstances of the struggle make their tactics useful..). I think this tendency towards macho bias is less of an issue (but still a problem) when anarchists which come together to focus on more formal workplace or community organising.... . An anarchist group with formal policies and organisational processes will generally try and do things in a way to specifically eliminate any gender bias in it's own organising structure and efforts (at least SolFed which I've had some involvement with have made efforts to understand why women and trans people are underrepresented and want to take meaningful steps to address this).

(I have never been involved in any informally organised insurrectionist group- except getting caught up in a blac block once before I considered myself an anarchist (does that count?) so I might not be giving a balanced view here...)

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Jul 21 2012 20:37
stateless_crow wrote:
I
I think insurrectionist anarchism has to some extent internalised patriarchical attitudes like glorification of violence and macho attitudes.

Most leftist insurrectionist groups have a much higher proportion of women-identified folk than your standard military, the EZLN being an example with close to a 50/50 split. Now if you're just talking about black bloc kids, then sure, but if you mean revolutionaries then I'm not sure that argument pans out.

I think attributing violence exclusively to masculinity, and continuing to do so even within radical circles, is probably going to yield more patriarchal results than violence in and of itself.

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Jul 21 2012 22:18
Birthday Pony wrote:
stateless_crow wrote:
I
I think insurrectionist anarchism has to some extent internalised patriarchical attitudes like glorification of violence and macho attitudes.

Most leftist insurrectionist groups have a much higher proportion of women-identified folk than your standard military, the EZLN being an example with close to a 50/50 split. Now if you're just talking about black bloc kids, then sure, but if you mean revolutionaries then I'm not sure that argument pans out.

I think attributing violence exclusively to masculinity, and continuing to do so even within radical circles, is probably going to yield more patriarchal results than violence in and of itself.

I've encountered this line of argument before and really not sure I agree. It seems quite clear to me that a lot of the imagery and language around insurrectionism - and, for that matter the image of revolutionaries elsewhere (at least as used by Western activists) - fairly directly plays up to "macho" ideals and what it means to be masculine. Whether or not it's actually men carrying out the acts (or being inspired by them) isn't really the point IMO; more about how things are conveyed and the way that tends to play into traditionally masculine, rather than feminine or other, ideas, roles, language, imagery and such.

(it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between 325 and stills from Die Hard tongue )

I mean, anarchism can be just as well presented in terms of caring, compassion, mutual support, tolerance and other seemingly "soft" or "feminine" traits. IME these often take a back seat to themes of confrontation, resistance, pictures of burning buildings and smashed up police cars - with far more interest in talk/images of anarchos fighting cops than of, say, providing free food or opening up squats for folks to live in (unless those squats get raided by the po-po of course).

This isn't directly tied to physical sex - there's plenty of blokes who feel alienated by the emphasis on confrontation and violence, and plenty of lasses who love it - but that isn't really the point, to be honest.

(It's also, fwiw, not something universal within anarchism of course.)

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Jul 21 2012 23:58

Given the overwhelming pacifist consensus in our society during the rare occasions when social change is meaningfully discussed at all, i don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for people to be out there highlighting successful "violent" tactics, when they are actually successful. This in itself is not a glorification of violence, though certainly there have been many texts written and graphics used by insurrectionalists which do glorify violence, and they probably shouldn't for reasons including those given by people so far.

As to the question of women and violence: i would personally like to see a culture shift in which women using violent means against sexists, rapists etc became more of a dominant and accepted image. The flipside of machismo telling men to be violent, is that it also tells women not to be, which just leaves them vulnerable to attack by men, thus preserving the patriarchy. This is a serious thing in our culture, i am always seeing female friends put up with stuff that i and most men would just not put up with, even when they could. In these situations i often feel like stepping in, as someone who at least has the confidence to verbally fight with people, even if i am not actually good at physical fighting at all, but this would just further reinforce the idea that women can not fight their own battles, so i usually try and stay out of it unless its something really bad.

My experiance of what people may term "insurectionalist organisation", i.e. networks of clandestine affinity groups, is not that they are dominated by men, but then that might be because i personally don't tend to like really macho men, or being in male-only groups, so probably wouldnt form an affinity group with a bunch of them, given that affinity groups are supposed to be based on, well, affinity.

the point is that some of the activists i know who are most militant, in terms of being prepared to throw stuff at cops, set fire to things etc, are women, and not particularly "masculine" women either. If the way insurrectionism is represented in both mainstream and anarchist media doesnt reflect this, then it is a problem of representation.

It is true that groups actually using the term Anarchist to describe themselves tend to be much less than 50% female, but in my experiance this is the case regardless of the level of formality that groups use

I do not think you can fetishise formal organisation to the extent that you can assume such problems as patriarchy will automatically sort themselves out. This has quite patently not happened in either solfed, afed, or anywhere else.

in anycase, one of the points i was trying to make people think about by giving this post the title it has, and especially with the first paragraph, is the fact that groups like solfed for example,but also many insurrectionalist groups, describe themselves as fighting capitalism primarily, and sexism and racism are kind of tacked on the end of that. No matter how it is phrased, the inevitable "oh yes and of course we are also against sexism" part of any manifesto or set of principles or whatever, always comes across as a bit forced.

i think this is one of the reasons why anarchist groups are numerically dominated by men, and white men especially, because many non-white people and non-male people see these groups as being a bunch of white men who are privileged in fuck loads of ways they don't even realize, going on and on about "class" all the time, because class oppression is the only kind of oppression that is relevant to them.

If you are economically, racially AND sexually oppressed, why would you want to only focus on one of those oppressions and work with people who didnt seem to really recognise the importance of the others, despite giving lipservice to them?

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Jul 22 2012 13:17
Birthday Pony wrote:
stateless_crow wrote:
I
I think insurrectionist anarchism has to some extent internalised patriarchical attitudes like glorification of violence and macho attitudes.

Most leftist insurrectionist groups have a much higher proportion of women-identified folk than your standard military, the EZLN being an example with close to a 50/50 split. Now if you're just talking about black bloc kids, then sure, but if you mean revolutionaries then I'm not sure that argument pans out.

I think attributing violence exclusively to masculinity, and continuing to do so even within radical circles, is probably going to yield more patriarchal results than violence in and of itself.

I don't want to come across like I dismiss all angry violent insurrectionist action as bad or a male thing. I meant to specify that I was talking about informal insurrectionist groups which don't really engage with the wider community and just organise little symbolic attacks and write angry propaganda- I perceive this to be male dominated or at least macho.

EZLN are a good example of a formally organised revolutionaries and insurrectionists. I don't think the EZLN broadly glorify violence or macho attitudes. I picked up a copy of Zapatista! Reinventing Revolution in Mexico it has a chapter all about the women's law, how women were integrated in the movement performing the same social functions as the male comrades and how there were other female-led initiatives etc. Great stuff. It just goes to show how stupid patriarchal gender sterotypes are.

I wouldn't necessarily equate 'macho' and 'masculine' but I guess it's a blurred distinction. Not all masculine qualities are macho. The way human behaviours are socially assigned as predominantly 'male' behaviours or 'female' behaviours is of course far from rational- gender roles and ideas of femininity, masculinity or machoness are fluid and individually and socially changeable. I don't want to come across as saying I think gender stereotypes are a good thing in guiding the behaviour of revolutionaries.

I do think they need to be understood because there is a widespread perception that anarchists are juvenile confrontational violent angry men (and a few women) who have no interest in being nurturing and socially productive. People don't like people who resort to violence as a first resort, particularly when authoritarianism and capitalism hide their own violent nature- insurrectionist action gets portrayed and perceived as the delinquent anti-social (predominantly male) force.

The thing that put me off anarchism for a long time was the largely false idea that anarchists relished conflict and violence for their own sake and/or use violence to achieve a goal as a first resort. I know this is not a fair representation of what insurrectionists really are, but I do think they have a tendency to adopt certain anti-social (or self-defeatist) tendencies because their attitudes and actions alienate others (not just women, but people in general who don't like conflict-seeking behaviours).

Helping others out, being caring and socially nurturing and cooperative can be perceived as masculine or feminine behaviours, I would group all those behaviours into pro-social. I think 'macho' can be in a separate 'anti-social' category. Anarchists should associate ourselves with pro-social behaviours and engage in the class-based social conflicts in an open and inclusive way and in a way which other people can experience and relate to- not clandestinely organise our own little acts of insurrection which are removed from the fronts of class struggle that proles experience every day. (not that I'm saying anyone on this thread is guilty of arguing for alienated symbolic struggle- I haven't got the gist of all the posts yet).

'Leadership' of the authoritarian violence-based variety or the ruling class variety is part of the patriarchal construct. Consensus-driven horizontal-organising-based decision making is not (where someone with good ideas and a trustworthy nature could take on a leading role). Its hard for most insurrectionist groups in most circumstances to remain consensus driven because they must keep their attacks a secret and therefore they close themselves off to the influence of the wider community and take it upon themselves to be the fighters of the good fight, which can slip into becoming dominant and somehow reflecting the patriarchal dominance they want to overthrow.

Self-assertion and self-determination are good things- taking that further and trying to assert yourself over others can sometimes become authoritarian (a feature which is sometimes equated masculinity- a social construct). Small groups of people acting in informal (exclusive and hidden) alliances can become or be seen as anti-socially coercive. Being confrontational or violent to further your own ends or get one over on a foe is seen as 'macho'. Masculine behaviour is not necessarily bad behaviour even if the idea of masculinity is a silly one. Not all insurrectionist activity is bad nor is it male. Talking about perception and reality at the same time is hard.

I am not saying that pacifism is the solution, but I think that if you focus too much on violence as the main approach to building anarchist communist social relations and destroying authoritarian/ capitalist social relations under the present conditions I can't see much potential for progress. However, community and workplace organising would be a good front to engage in a struggle against patriarchy, capital, and the state.

Although a perception might exist that violence fits with stereotypical ideas of what 'macho' (competative, conflict-seeking, violent, authoritarian) behaviour is, and that this is predominantly seen as a male trait. The caring 'feminine' or the caring 'masculine' (caring, sharing, cooperative, nurturing) side is seen as male or female depending on the specific task being undertaken and the gender of that person doing the task (cooking meat for a communal meal on burning charcoal outside is masculine, baking fairy cakes for a tea party is feminine- all nonsense of course). Most people recongnise the sterotypes are to a large extent socially constructed but that won't change them seeing violence, armed conflict or property damage as anti-social and largely undertaken by males.

My arguments never pan out but I think I've made at least one valid point somewhere in there.

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Jul 22 2012 13:41

I agree Raz that more needs to be done to engage in struggles against gender-based, race-based, sexuality-based etc social conflicts which oppress groups and individuals and I assume most in SolFed and AF would agree.

The vast majority of the white men in formal anarchist organisations would like to understand how they can struggle alongside, support, and be supported by more non-white, non-male comrades (more comrades in general).

All hierarchies need confronting but I can't see how insurrectionist anarcha-feminism as a separate activity from the wider remit of the organisations engaged in the consciously-anarchist class struggles would gain much ground, but I can see what SolFed AF etc. or other large class-based anarhcist orgs could do if they had a more diverse and expanded membership and therefore scope of activity... I think what to be done about increasing and diversifying the membership is a regular point of discussion and action. SolFed and AFed comrades and most organised class struggle anarchists recognise the tyranny of patriarchy and bigotry of all types and do already struggle against it where they encounter it. This has been covered on a number of threads, it's more than lip service, but there are limits to what small organisations can practically do. Comrades who are conscious that a person can be oppressed or exploited because of their gender, sexuality or race as well as class and who want to take action to struggle against this oppression would be very welcome and would find support within SolFed AF etc..

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Jul 22 2012 15:25

I don't disagree that sometimes it feels like certain groups "tack on" fighting other forms of oppression, and only a reductionist idiot would argue that women's, queer etc. issues can wait until "after the revolution." However, I'm not convinced by your argument that capital and class do not still overdetermine everything else. Forgive me if I've missed something, but the argument seems to be stating legitimate forms of violence, oppression, exploitation, etc., and then saying that

1. Most of these hierarchies are dominated by men
2. These hierarchies are sustained by "machismo values"

And that therefore patriarchy is more fundamental than class. I don't buy this at all, and here is where things get problematic for me:

Quote:
All of these institutions which together make up the State-capitalist world order (the banks, governments, corporations, charities, schools, hospitals, prisons and organised religions) are hierarchical structures of control protecting the power and private property of a minority of men.

As a positive statement, this is obviously true,

Quote:
They are all deliberately set up by these men, whether they admit it or not, to keep women, transsexuals and ‘effeminate’ men in submissive positions and promote amongst other men the values of machismo: competitiveness, aggressiveness, self-assertion, misogyny and homophobia.

This is where, in my opinion, things go horribly wrong. The idea that these structures are set up deliberately, consciously by "these men" in some sort of conspiracy I see no reason to accept, and I frankly thing stretches the bounds of credulity a bit. This isn't to argue for some "forgive them for they know not what they do" or to be some Althusserian structuralist and treat subjects simply as containers for ideology and structures as the motive force of history, forgetting that these structures are only produced and reproduced by agency, but I think it's just as ridiculous to swing to the opposite pole and say that these structures are deliberate conspiracies.

I also take issue with the idea that they do this "to keep...in submissive positions." Well obviously one of the things that these constructions of masculinity do, with their associated marginalization of the "feminine" is marginalize certain people and groups. But how and why does it do this? It fractures and stratifies the proletariat, it is the production of new hierarchies and power relations as the old ones are dissolved by capitalism.

Quote:
These macho values are the glue that holds these hierarchies together, keeping the powerful men at the top and the men below them in a position of relative power over women as a compensation for a lack of power at the larger level. As master of the house, the man may forget that he is the slave of the factory.

I wouldn't say these "values" are what "hold these hierarchies together," it is the whole mess of social relations. These values are as much a response to these relations and practices as they are a cause of them.

Quote:
And in the factory, or the school, or the army, he is indeed a slave, but even there not as much as the women who work the hardest jobs in the factory for the least pay and who the male union leaders and socialist politicians ignore, the girls at school who must not only be disciplined to the rigours of the household but also to those of the household and bedroom in which she is to be considered a mere plaything, or the millions of women raped by invading armies or left destitute and unprotected after the bombs have been dropped.

Again, I don't disagree that there is stratification and hierarchy within the class, what I am saying is that this is one of the ways the class is maintained and not vice-versa. If patriarchy overdetermines everything (including class) then it seems to me we fall into the essentialist trap of "every man oppresses every woman" which in turn seems to be to assume some essential womanhood or manhood rather than a mess of contradictory tendencies, ideas, and practices that create a family resemblance we call "masculinity" or "femininity." I mean do you really think the worker who goes home at night and abuses and dominates his wife or girlfriend, a phenomenon which no doubt is an oppressive one which maintains the existing society, oppresses Hillary Clinton?

I noticed you cited Foucault in this argument, and I think part of the problem is that in your argument Foucault's notion of power, which is of course omnipresent, collapses into "oppression" i.e. hierarchical domination, and that this omnipresence flattens oppression so it becomes totalizing, not leaving room for the real stratifications, fissures, and contradictory tendencies within our social practices and structures. When one couples this with what I see as a lurking essentialism (in this case with regard to "woman") I think the central lessons of poststructuralism are missed and that what results is that, in conjunction with the "flattening" of power relations, whichever identity one picks (whether it be "woman," "queer" as in my case, etc.) overdetermines everything else. For example, if I essentialize identity and flatten power relations I can just as easily reach the conclusion that patriarchy, heterosexism, racism, or whatever is "fundamental" with no real way to choose between them.

To summarize, I agree with many of your concrete conclusions (such as trying to overcome pacifism, better integrate and develop revolutionary gender and sexual politics, etc.) but I am going to need a lot more convincing that patriarchy is the "root of all oppression" so to speak.

the croydonian anarchist's picture
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Jul 22 2012 21:04
Valdyr wrote:
but I am going to need a lot more convincing that patriarchy is the "root of all oppression" so to speak.

What is "the root of all oppression" in your opinion? If we accept that ATR there could still be the possibility for oppression, then that would mean its not capitalism or patriarchy, so what the fuck is it ? I think the concept of a "root of all oppression" is really useful because of this conundrum we are left with (if we accept the possibility of oppression ATR, bare in mind if we get rid of it that's irrelevant, it still had some where to come from if we accept this idea of "the root of all oppression").

Valdyr
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Jul 23 2012 03:48
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
Valdyr wrote:
but I am going to need a lot more convincing that patriarchy is the "root of all oppression" so to speak.

What is "the root of all oppression" in your opinion? If we accept that ATR there could still be the possibility for oppression, then that would mean its not capitalism or patriarchy, so what the fuck is it ? I think the concept of a "root of all oppression" is really useful because of this conundrum we are left with (if we accept the possibility of oppression ATR, bare in mind if we get rid of it that's irrelevant, it still had some where to come from if we accept this idea of "the root of all oppression").

Alienation from the means of production. As I understand it the emergence of primitive material surpluses is what allowed hierarchical forms of social organization to develop, which includes patriarchy. That class in this fundamental sense overdetermines the "social matrix" of various oppressions doesn't mean all these other things are reducible to class.

There is not a clean break of BTR and ATR, where suddenly one day everything is fine, all old social relations are a distant memory, etc. I mean through much of the 20th century there were still vestiges of feudal relations in many parts of the world, so I think it perfectly reasonable to accept that there will be traces and bubbles of old social relations for a long time. However, in a situation without class I can't see patriarchal vestiges lasting for long as the material surplus which allowed for the creation and maintenance of hierarchical structures and thereby the associated patriarchal discourse wouldn't be there. How exactly would patriarchy be reproduced otherwise, would it spring fully formed and spontaneously from the heads of "men" (a notion confined to a gender binary I'd think would be increasingly meaningless) just because?

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Jul 23 2012 07:18

valdyr wrote:

Quote:
Alienation from the means of production. As I understand it the emergence of primitive material surpluses is what allowed hierarchical forms of social organization to develop, which includes patriarchy. That class in this fundamental sense overdetermines the "social matrix" of various oppressions doesn't mean all these other things are reducible to class

dead right! this is where embracing Foucault fucks things up - if reality is shaped by the play of contending "wills-to-power" and this explains social inequality then revolutionary politics is pointless. new forms of oppression will inevitably emerge as the struggle for domination is constitutive and can't be transcended. the specifics of the argument vary (patriarchy as a product of maleness etc) but the conclusion tends to be the same

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Jul 23 2012 13:46

So once we are not alienated from the means of production, is it your sincere belief that there will be no possibility of oppression ? If there is still the possibility that there might be, then that oppression has to be coming from somewhere.

andy g
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Jul 23 2012 14:33

what reason do you have to believe that oppression would re-emerge/continue after a successful workers' revolution? who would exercise the oppression over whom? and how? and in whose interests?

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Jul 29 2012 15:51

because something undermines your faith in revolution, it must be wrong?
Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. I don't believe that there will be a revolution that will forever end class society or alienation from the means of production. if you believe that you're no better than a christian

Say there's a collectivized farm, and people of all genders are working on the farm producing food. couldn't a man, or group of men end up dominating this farm, taking the majority of food, forcing the women to do more work than they have to, etc?

what the fuck is going to stop this happening, except women and other non-males constantly being conscious of this possibility and organizing in advance what tactics they would use to combat any men who would do this.

thats why anarcha-feminism has to be separate from things like Afed and Solfed. If anarcha-feminists are just subsumed under other organisations structures, they are that much less powerful.

as for the point about whether people deliberately and consciously maintain gendered hierarchies, i think they really do. Men in powerful positions are usually sexist in my experiance, usually behave in ways that perpetuate these inequalities and are not particularly bothered about the fact that they are doing it. sometimes they are pretty proud of themselves about it even

An example could be a male manager who hangs out with male workers at the pub later, but not female ones, unless he's trying to shag them. is this an uncommon scenario? In that workplace the male workers are going to be in a more powerful position, they have more respect from the boss on a day to day basis.

or what about when there are skills involved, or strength? in general women can do the same things as men if they are given a chance to learn, and can be as physically strong as men if they exercise their muscles a lot. But if the men in charge of the situation always choose men to do things involving certain skills, or physical strength, throughout a woman's entire life, how is she going to be able to do these things, unless she deliberately asserts herself to challenge all this? And not being able to do something makes you less powerful, makes you dependent on men who can do it.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jul 29 2012 15:59
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dead right! this is where embracing Foucault fucks things up

But the bit that is also misunderstood about Foucault is that power is neither good or bad which seems to be lost on alot of people.

andy g
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Jul 29 2012 20:38

wasn't suggesting Foucault suggested power good or bad but rather all pervasive and constitutive. aside from being problematic itself this effaces important distinctions between forms and sources of power IMHO

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because something undermines your faith in revolution, it must be wrong?
Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. I don't believe that there will be a revolution that will forever end class society or alienation from the means of production. if you believe that you're no better than a christian

this is an example of name calling as a substitute for logic. you have misrepresented my argument in order to avoid subjecting your own to criticism - if that's not a theological mindset I don't know what is. BTW if communism is impossible why are you here?

Quote:
Say there's a collectivized farm, and people of all genders are working on the farm producing food. couldn't a man, or group of men end up dominating this farm, taking the majority of food, forcing the women to do more work than they have to, etc?

what the fuck is going to stop this happening, except women and other non-males constantly being conscious of this possibility and organizing in advance what tactics they would use to combat any men who would do this.

once again, if we have a situation in which genuine economic democracy exists why would we expect "men" to seek to dominate others? incidentally, why men dominating women? why not the reverse? why not blue eyed dominating brown? the only reasoning i can see at work here is the belief in some biologically programmed desire to dominate. i believe this to be (a) inimical to the socialist project and more importantly (b) completely false. "patriarchy" is not a historical universal.

your example about sexist bosses is undoubtedly true in many cases. bosses promote reactionary ideas. shock. not really an argument for separatist organisation in my book.

don't follow your last point - are you arguing that sexism is a result of, or perpetuated by, superior male physical strength? really?

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qbbmvrjsssdd
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Jul 30 2012 00:24

Capitalism strips people of their sexuality. Patriarchy isn't as acute as it has been often in the past. Nowadays people are more like castrated beings, all working for the same two-headed monster. I have a really mean sister, and I feel oppressed by her. I've been underemployed for months and months now and she really gets to me. She's like a nazi! I don't call that patriarchy, no siree! Some women can be real bitches, whatever kind of connotation that word confers. What I mean is I think that latter-day capitalism is such a novel phenomenon that the whole gender dynamic has become completely tangled up, and men are not the absolute dominant power; you don't need a dick to hit people over the head with anymore, exactly, because now vaginas can gobble you up all the same in the cut-throat money-crazed jungle some naive-minded people call civilization. I guess I just don't like my sister. Not to underestimate patriarchy, because it certainly does exist. There's just something very strange about capitalism that supersedes the gender struggle in some ways. Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about? I don't know.

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lzbl
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Jul 30 2012 09:36
qbbmvrjsssdd wrote:
Capitalism strips people of their sexuality.

Sexuality isn't sex which isn't gender. Capitalism actively uses gender to divide us. You are wrong.

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Patriarchy isn't as acute as it has been often in the past.

O rly.

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I have a really mean sister, and I feel oppressed by her. I've been underemployed for months and months now and she really gets to me. She's like a nazi!

wall

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I don't call that patriarchy, no siree!

Possibly because you don't understand that patriarchy is how people behave within a system rather than the act of one individual towards another.

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Some women can be real bitches, whatever kind of connotation that word confers.

'Bitch' specifically references behaviour seen as inherently, unpleasantly feminine. You may be interested to learn that this is because under patriarchy, behaviour seen as feminine is also seen as lesser, undesirable and problematic. Bitch refers to women who dare to criticise or act negatively (or, y'know, just say 'no') in a way seen as inappropriate or uppity. Harpy is similar but less venomous.

Quote:
What I mean is I think that latter-day capitalism is such a novel phenomenon that the whole gender dynamic has become completely tangled up, and men are not the absolute dominant power; you don't need a dick to hit people over the head with anymore, exactly, because now vaginas can gobble you up all the same in the cut-throat money-crazed jungle some naive-minded people call civilization.

eek

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I guess I just don't like my sister.

Paging Dr Freud.

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Not to underestimate patriarchy,

What, like you have done consistently throughout this post?

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because it certainly does exist.

Gee thanks.

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There's just something very strange about capitalism that supersedes the gender struggle in some ways.

No, it doesn't.

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Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about? I don't know.

Yeah, that seems like a fair analysis.

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Railyon
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Jul 30 2012 13:49
qbbmvrjsssdd wrote:
I have a really mean sister, and I feel oppressed by her. I've been underemployed for months and months now and she really gets to me. She's like a nazi! I don't call that patriarchy, no siree! Some women can be real bitches, whatever kind of connotation that word confers. What I mean is I think that latter-day capitalism is such a novel phenomenon that the whole gender dynamic has become completely tangled up, and men are not the absolute dominant power; you don't need a dick to hit people over the head with anymore, exactly, because now vaginas can gobble you up all the same in the cut-throat money-crazed jungle some naive-minded people call civilization.

What the actual fuck, dude.

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qbbmvrjsssdd
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Jul 31 2012 06:09
lzbl wrote:
Sexuality isn't sex which isn't gender. Capitalism actively uses gender to divide us. You are wrong.

'Bitch' specifically references behaviour seen as inherently, unpleasantly feminine. You may be interested to learn that this is because under patriarchy, behaviour seen as feminine is also seen as lesser, undesirable and problematic. Bitch refers to women who dare to criticise or act negatively (or, y'know, just say 'no') in a way seen as inappropriate or uppity. Harpy is similar but less venomous.

Hm, well, first of all, there's no need to be so crotchety; do you call yourself a communist with that kind of attitude, whose goals are to inspire freedom, joy, and love? To my thinking, sexuality, sex, and gender flow out from each other. Gender plays an important role in sexuality, for example, though it's not necessary for it, of course. Capitalism may highlight the differences between the genders in order to manipulate proletarians, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also reduce us to sexless, undifferentiated beings who have no sense of individuality and eroticism and romance.
Patriarchal attitudes are an indispensable weapon in the hands of governments and capitalists. That's quite obvious. But power and hierarchy, at least this is what I'm arguing, depend also on a general inclination to merely dominate others, no matter what kind of person they are; domination is just as intoxicating whether its domination of Hispanic men, black women, children, elders, or Muslims, whatever.
Anyways, sorry for offending you... I really don't know what I'm talking about most of the time, but I say it anyway...

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xslavearcx
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Jul 31 2012 14:28
qbbmvrjsssdd wrote:
Capitalism strips people of their sexuality. Patriarchy isn't as acute as it has been often in the past. Nowadays people are more like castrated beings, all working for the same two-headed monster. I have a really mean sister, and I feel oppressed by her. I've been underemployed for months and months now and she really gets to me. She's like a nazi! I don't call that patriarchy, no siree! Some women can be real bitches, whatever kind of connotation that word confers. What I mean is I think that latter-day capitalism is such a novel phenomenon that the whole gender dynamic has become completely tangled up, and men are not the absolute dominant power; you don't need a dick to hit people over the head with anymore, exactly, because now vaginas can gobble you up all the same in the cut-throat money-crazed jungle some naive-minded people call civilization. I guess I just don't like my sister. Not to underestimate patriarchy, because it certainly does exist. There's just something very strange about capitalism that supersedes the gender struggle in some ways. Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about? I don't know.

and the wind up post of the year goes to....