Possible empirical evidence for the LTV

Submitted by infektfm on June 28, 2016

So, I've been reading Anwar Shaikh's Capitalism: Competition, Crises, Conflict, and very early on (page 69) I encountered a section called Relative Prices. I'll quote (the first two paragraphs are explanatory and set the context, the last paragraph is where the empirical evidence comes in):

The price of any commodity can be represented as the product of two distinct elements. The first of these is the vertically integrated unit labor cost associated with the production of this commodity (Sraffa 1960, appendix A; Pasinetti 1965; Kurz and Salvadori 1995, 85, 168-169, 178). This is the sum of the unit labor costs of the industry producing the commodity in question, plus the unit labor costs of the set of industries producing inputs (raw materials, etc.) of this particular industry, plus the unit labor costs of the industries producing the inputs for the industries producing inputs, and so on. Vertical integration in this (analytical) sense captures the total industrial labor cost of producing a given commodity. The second element is the vertically integrated ratio of profits to wages associated with the same industry. This is a weighted average of the profit-wage ratio in the industry producing the commodity, plus the profit-wage ratio in the set of industries producing the inputs, plus the profit-wage ratio in the set of industries producing the inputs for the inputs, and so on. (7)

Adam Smith was the first one to make this decomposition, by means of a verbal argument. It is quite easy to reproduce analytically (once a great thinker has already shown the way). David Ricardo subsequently used a similar mode of reasoning to argue that the relative prices of any two commodities would be dominated by the ratio of their vertically integrated unit labor costs. His upper limit for the influence of the remaining element was 7%. Thus, on his estimation, relative vertically integrated unit labor costs would be expected to account for at least 93% of the inter-industrial structure of relative prices. With only a few notable exceptions (Schwartz 1961, 42-44), this "93% Theory of Price" has been long derided by modern economists on theoretical grounds.

It is always illuminating to look at the actual empirical evidence. Figure 2.14 displays the relation between observed market prices and prices proportional to vertically integrated unit labor costs (direct prices), for each of the seventy-one sectors of the US input-output table for 1972. The vertical axis represents the market value of each sector's total output (i.e., its unit market price times its total output), while the horizontal axis represents the corresponding direct money value for the same outputs. The two sets of prices are scaled so that they have the same total. Also displayed on the chart is 45-degree line, for purposes of visual comparison. From 1947 to 1998 the average absolute deviation of observed market prices with the respect to direct prices is 15.4%. But Ricardo's concern was with the long-run competitive prices, not market prices, and for the actual rate of profit in each the average deviation of competitive prices from direct prices is 13.2% (chapter 9, tables 9.9 and 9.13). To put it in Ricardian terms, about 87% of the inter-industrial structure of long run competitive prices is accounted for by direct and indirect unit labor costs.

It goes on to say that this will be expanded upon more in chapter 9, which I haven't gotten to yet. But this passage had really excited me. Am I over reaching by believing that this is evidence of the LTV?

I will upload photos of the tables mentioned soon!

infektfm

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by infektfm on June 28, 2016

figure 2.14: Normalized Total Prices of Production Profits versus Total Unit Labor Costs, US 1972 (Seventy-One Industries)

Figure 9.13: Distance Measures of Standard Price-Labor Time Deviations, United States, 1998 (circulating and fixed capital models)

I can't quite get a good picture of the mentioned Figure 9.9: Integrated Output-Capital Ratios Relative to the Standard, United States, 1998 (Fixed Capital Model) -- my phone won't quite focus on it (it's six graphs fit on one page, with very small text and narrow lines -- comes out all blurry). But if anyone is interested, I could probably take multiple pictures of it.

Pennoid

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on June 28, 2016

Hmm, I have this text as well. I'd have to read the whole section to get a better feeling for the argument. I had begun reading this in May but I stopped to read more about the IWW. I would pick it back up again though....

Gulai Polye

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 28, 2016

Well isnt it logical in a way that no evidence is needed?
LTV = minimal practical price = barely survival-able for the workers
LTV + profits = market price =

A) Barely survival-able for the workers if the capitalists takes all the profit
B) The workers are living their life if the capitalists has been kicked out so all the profit goes to the workers

Both David Ricardo[1] and Karl Marx attempted to quantify and embody all labor components in order to develop a theory of the real price, or natural price of a commodity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

This is impossible since what is a good price for me can be a bad price for you. Pricing commodities is subjective. What you can do is find a price most people can live with.

Khawaga

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on June 28, 2016

You're right that Marx just assumed the LTV to be true or factual, but on the rest of your post you're just plain wrong. On my phone so can't be arsed to explain why right now. I'll try to come back to this when I have time.

Pennoid

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on June 29, 2016

Well, it *is* true in manifestly without recourse to evidence. Human labor is what shapes the material world into useful things. Now, the question is; does that labor-time that it takes to produce commodities express itself in the price in significant enough of a manner to be said to be governing that price?

We also have to distinguish between different 'prices' market price vs. price of production etc.

Price is decidedly *not* subjective except in the wild imagination of moronic economists. Capitalists can 'theoretically' put whatever price they want on their commodities. But what matters is what price they DO put on their commodities and what COMPELS them to put such a price. (Note this also contradicts the conception of 'perfect competition' wherein every seller is a 'price-taker' with no control over price, another fantasy).

S. Artesian

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 29, 2016

Cockshott, I think, has written extensively on this. IIRC he found a 95% direct relation between labor-time of production and prices.

S. Artesian

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 29, 2016

He has a couple of papers on it at the academia website: http://glasgow.academia.edu/paulcockshott--

They are free to download, but you have to register on the site. If that's a drag, send me a message with your email address and I'll email you copies.

Khawaga

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on June 29, 2016

Cheers, I'm already on that site and I'm pretty sure I'm following him. I'll take a look.

S. Artesian

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 29, 2016

One is " A defense of the empirics..." part of the debate with Nitzan and Bichler. The other on the probability of values and prices of production.

Khawaga

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on June 29, 2016

Thanks. Btw, what do you think of Nitzan and Bichler. I run into their acolytes from time to time, but I never understood why they are so popular.

S. Artesian

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 29, 2016

Khawaga

Thanks. Btw, what do you think of Nitzan and Bichler. I run into their acolytes from time to time, but I never understood why they are so popular.

That's exactly what I think. Why are they popular? I read some of their stuff years ago when it was relatively "new" and I just thought........."What?" "What?"

I understand unpopularity, being who I am, and how I do things. Popularity, though, I could never fathom. And in the case of N&B, my inability is appropriate.

infektfm

7 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by infektfm on June 30, 2016

Pennoid

We also have to distinguish between different 'prices' market price vs. price of production etc.
.

Can you or someone explain this to me?

In the neoclassical model, don't market prices apply to all inputs including labor?