Postmodern Theory and the radical left?

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Arbeiten's picture
Arbeiten
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Feb 25 2013 17:01

Haven't been on libcom for a while. But most of this discussion has been pretty interesting.

I quite enjoy reading some so-called post-structuralist authors. I think the term 'post-structuralism' is a little bit of a strawman (when applied to to fairly different bodies of work such as Foucault, Deleuze, Derrida and whatever else). That said. This strawman has basically been perpetuated by various sections of higher education and a lot of shit work has been produced as a result (Homi Bhabha sticks in my mind right now, but I'm sure there are others). I think some of this is more observable in certain authors rather than in all of the people put under the umbrella term. Particularly Lyotard and Baudrillard. Both these authors are particularly annoying because they make claims ( I'm thinking here of Lyotard's guff in The Postmodern Condition about flying to japan, listening to reggae, eating McDonalds, wearing French perfume, whatever, whatever, whatever) that when pushed for evidence, or challenged for being shit, are met with 'oh but it doesn't claim to be a sociology' or something like this. Also the meta-narrative stuff. People who use this term in relation to Marxism, in my experience, have never read Marx. Or, basically, what ocelot said.

ocelot wrote:
"Postmodernism" in the proper noun sense is (ironically) [irony... how post modern of you wink ] a meta-narrative that seeks not only to determine the character of the contemporary phase of capitalist society, but also what antagonistic strategies are now possible (and impossible) in the "changed circumstances". Which turns out, in Lyotard's and Baudrillard's case to be "not a lot". Which is why everybody and his or her dog have attacked them for being reactionary quietists (rightly, imo).

N.B. On Jameson - I think he gives a lot of this stuff too much credence. Is culture really as 'schizophrenic' as these authors seem to suggest? Was there a time when 'cognitive mapping' was more straight forward when we were apparently less schizophrenic? (excuse me if I'm getting this wrong, I haven't read Jameson in a long while).

infektfm
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Feb 25 2013 19:42

I think a lot of post-structuralist theory is of use for the progress of anarchist theory. They might be extremely negative, and it all might seem extremely pessimistic; I think it would be fair to even characterize a lot of it as counter-revolutionary in some sense, but certainly not in any traditional, right-wing reactionary sense. I think the suspicions they raise of instrumental rationality and the totalizing effect of ideology even on us so-called radicals can only be a good thing. Not every philosophy is perfect. It may be unpleasant for some on this board to hear this, but I think a lot of classic social anarchism isn't devoid of potentially detrimental ideology. And I stress the word "potentially." I just think there are several things in poststructuralism that are especially of use to anarchism; there are a lot of anti-authoritarian spirited insights to be found in Nietzsche, Foucault, Deleuze, Baudrillard, Frankfurt School, etc. Not a lot of it may vibe with everything Marx or Kropotkin says, but I think that's perhaps needed. And where they're wrong, they're wrong. Just as Marx has been wrong on multiple occasions--- but we don't call his whole spiel bullshit.

I do understand a lot of the criticism and agree with much of it. There is a lot of intellectual posturing in the way a lot of these people write. It gives off a very elitest vibe, that very much contradicts a lot of the actual anti-authoritarian content of the writing which makes it all seem a bit disingenuous. At any rate, if one can look past that, and in some cases separate the philosophy from the philosopher (mainly thinking about Heidegger here), there is a lot of good stuff to be drawn from it for our movement towards a more just society.

On a related note, I really think fallibilism is a very important thing for us anarchists. We should believe what we believe but we should remain suspicious of our own ideological tendencies. We know the extent ideology affects society, we shouldn't think we are immune or have completely conquered it. We need to remain suspicious. I think this is what post-structuralism is especially good for.

The Potato
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Feb 25 2013 21:48

Interestingly, I have been striding through Foucault's prose as of late, my real problem has been comprehending - on any level - the work of Werner Bonefeld (http://libcom.org/tags/werner-bonefeld) from the Open Marxist school. I think Marxism is often just as susceptible to impenetrable multi-clause abstraction which assumes a lot of knowledge.

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georgestapleton
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Feb 26 2013 15:06

Ha. Yeah I think the reason I want to defend impenetrable texts is because I really like Bonefeld.

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Feb 26 2013 16:00

I'll see your Bonefeld and raise you a "Time for Revolution". wink

batswill
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Feb 26 2013 21:23

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batswill
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Feb 26 2013 21:04
xslavearcx wrote:
Find some of this stuff pretty interesting - particularly the stuff to do with islamist scholars relationship with post-structuralism which i have never heard before.

I always thought Khomenis contributions to shisism was more situated within an islamic framework on the question of the role of the clergy in relationship to politics, redefining their role as custodians of sole interpreters of the hidden Imam away from political quietism towards a more active role in shaping constitutions and determining whether laws enacted by the legislative assembly was in line with an 'islamic' constitution. If i remember correctly, the post revolutionary set up borrowed a lot of its constitution from the French one but i never knew there were other french influences from that time (apart from Ali Shariati who got bits and bobs from marxism and existentialism but i dont think his ideas had much influence in the political direction of the post revolution iranian state)...

As for post structuralism in general - one of the things that annoys me of the distinction between analytic and continental philosophy is that in my courses have not had the opportunity to study those which fall into the other side of that line of demarcation. Like for instance, just did a module on the philosophy of language there, and didn't get anything from semiotics, desassaure etc, not even just to show if it was a lot of rubbish or not. For me personally i find it kinda frustraiting since it seems that there are a lot of studies going on into similiar areas and that if there are insights gained they are not really getting the opportunity to really cross fertilise and get better insights happening.

So just via where im situated at the moment, i have not read very little post structuralist stuff beyond 101 stuff. One thing though, i've read a little zizek and i do find his style of in one paragraph going from say kripke to heidegger, to lacan seems to be more like showing off how well read he is rather than developing some real insights, but again i accept that its probably just because i havent got much of a background in it to formulate a proper judgement.

Nevertheless that passage about butler ethos posted, pretty much resembles my initial thoughts re zizek when i read him:

Quote:
Her written style, however, is ponderous and obscure. It is dense with allusions to other theorists, drawn from a wide range of different theoretical traditions. In addition to Foucault, and to a more recent focus on Freud, Butler's work relies heavily on the thought of Louis Althusser, the French lesbian theorist Monique Wittig, the American anthropologist Gayle Rubin, Jacques Lacan, J.L. Austin, and the American philosopher of language Saul Kripke. These figures do not all agree with one another, to say the least; so an initial problem in reading Butler is that one is bewildered to find her arguments buttressed by appeal to so many contradictory concepts and doctrines, usually without any account of how the apparent contradictions will be resolved.

That's an excellent comment, however, I wish to pursue semiotics such as I believe in one infallible rule which is --, if you show me a man or woman who doesn't like country music, I'll show you a goddam fool! That sums up post-modernism.

batswill
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Feb 26 2013 21:13
Arbeiten wrote:
Haven't been on libcom for a while. But most of this discussion has been pretty interesting.

I quite enjoy reading some so-called post-structuralist authors. I think the term 'post-structuralism' is a little bit of a strawman (when applied to to fairly different bodies of work such as Foucault, Deleuze, Derrida and whatever else). That said. This strawman has basically been perpetuated by various sections of higher education and a lot of shit work has been produced as a result (Homi Bhabha sticks in my mind right now, but I'm sure there are others). I think some of this is more observable in certain authors rather than in all of the people put under the umbrella term. Particularly Lyotard and Baudrillard. Both these authors are particularly annoying because they make claims ( I'm thinking here of Lyotard's guff in The Postmodern Condition about flying to japan, listening to reggae, eating McDonalds, wearing French perfume, whatever, whatever, whatever) that when pushed for evidence, or challenged for being shit, are met with 'oh but it doesn't claim to be a sociology' or something like this. Also the meta-narrative stuff. People who use this term in relation to Marxism, in my experience, have never read Marx. Or, basically, what ocelot said.

ocelot wrote:
"Postmodernism" in the proper noun sense is (ironically) [irony... how post modern of you wink ] a meta-narrative that seeks not only to determine the character of the contemporary phase of capitalist society, but also what antagonistic strategies are now possible (and impossible) in the "changed circumstances". Which turns out, in Lyotard's and Baudrillard's case to be "not a lot". Which is why everybody and his or her dog have attacked them for being reactionary quietists (rightly, imo).

N.B. On Jameson - I think he gives a lot of this stuff too much credence. Is culture really as 'schizophrenic' as these authors seem to suggest? Was there a time when 'cognitive mapping' was more straight forward when we were apparently less schizophrenic? (excuse me if I'm getting this wrong, I haven't read Jameson in a long while).

I like studying semiotics and language theory. But I'm a musician first, whatever that means.