In the real world
Oct 22 2009 19:23
#92
The discourse that uses phrases like "myths", "debunk" and "real world" is generally a device to dismiss all objections to an idea by implying there are no serious arguments against it, that anyone objecting is akin to a UFO fanatic.
Of course, this is the way that states, corporations and social workers frame their ideas but that should be a clue we shouldn't approach things that way...
Oct 22 2009 19:25
#93
tina wrote:
It was opinions I was after & suggestions for creating what we can today for the future we want tomorrow.Most people here seem to think there isn't much point doing that at this stage and that is a definite view, which is fine, it was views & ideasI was after.
i think the thing is it doesn't matter what "positive & concrete" things you want to create since we're in no position to do so. that's capitalism, and therefore anti-capitalist activity is that of struggle against the prevailing conditions; class struggle. that doesn't necessarily mean "fighting & destruction" by any means either, although the state tends to repress anything it sees as a threat, be that picket lines or whatever.
tina wrote:
people need to be politicized so they can think for themselves
don't you think it's a bit patronising to assume people don't think for themselves already?
Oct 22 2009 21:48
#94
just to note my posts above were edited to reflect my idiotic conflation of zerzan and bey. one primitivist is too many for me to keep track of apparently. thanks to waslax.
Oct 22 2009 23:20
#95
A key point here is that we actually want to change the world.
If all we want is the same shit world but with a free anarchist minibus which goes to a hospital, then why don't we all just give money to charity. Or just pay our taxes and like the state - because the state provides far more useful services and free minibuses than anarchists ever could.
Also, going back to an earlier point, primitivists are just people with ideas, just like you and me when the smoke and cameras disappear.
Oct 23 2009 18:21
#96
Joseph,
Of course some people do think for themselves. I do know some people who never think about the situation we're all in & I would only encourage them to think about the issues & what they'd like to do about it.
Anyway, thanks.
Oct 27 2009 04:54
#97
Sorry this is super delayed, i'm still learning how this website works and it's not letting me delete this post now that I've realized it's way too late, but...
Dear BigLittleJ, maybe this isn't pertinent, but could you please explain that "UAW on strike" photo as being under the headline of "workers resistance still happens"? Last time I checked, Union bosses are still bosses, but probably worse because unions still give some illusion of subversion or resistance in the workplace.
Feel free to redirect me somewhere else if this is derailing this thread, or something.
Oct 27 2009 11:15
#98
Quote:
Dear BigLittleJ, maybe this isn't pertinent, but could you please explain that "UAW on strike" photo as being under the headline of "workers resistance still happens"? Last time I checked, Union bosses are still bosses, but probably worse because unions still give some illusion of subversion or resistance in the workplace.
Hey,
Yes, union bosses are still bosses, but no, I don't agree that unions 'give some illusion' of workplace resistance. What unions do is to take workplace existence and try to recuperate it, that is, express it in a left-wing way rather than a revolutionary way.
Workers within unions do actively resist capitalism in their workplaces. In the current climate individual workers pretty much have to fight inside the unions because they're the only organisations which are immediately around. While I would always advocate a strategy of mass meetings instead where this is possible, in most cases in britain today there won't be high enough levels of struggle for this to happen right away.
Does that make sense?
~J.
Oct 27 2009 21:10
#99
I suppose it makes "sense," but probably just not something I would see eye to eye with. I would probably agree with the first part about unions recuperating workplace struggle in a left wing or reformist way, but not in a revolutionary way. However, I can't get behind settling for reformist struggles.
Maybe as a brief, low-energy response, I would evoke this?
Oct 28 2009 02:42
#100
Tina - are you down for running up on dem crackas in dey city hall?
Oct 28 2009 03:38
#101
Quote:
I would probably agree with the first part about unions recuperating workplace struggle in a left wing or reformist way, but not in a revolutionary way. However, I can't get behind settling for reformist struggles.
That's hardly the point. Whether or not you can 'get behind' it, you still basically agree that it's an example of workplace resistance, which was the point of posting it - to show that workplace resistance is still a fact of life for many workers around the world in this day and age; not just a relic of centuries gone by.
Not that I personally in any sense reject 'reformist' struggles.
~J.
Nov 11 2009 12:43
#102
Quote:
The busses were just an example of something positive & concrete that would help others to see the point of it all, sometimes there can be a lot of emphasis on fighting & destruction which turns a lot of people away when they'd agree with what we wanted if they stayed around to find out. That's just my opinion.
Contrary to some of the other posters, I think there's a lot to be gained by introducing forms of organization which allow people to be less dependent on capital to survive. Perhaps one of the reasons why workplace resistance, broadly speaking, hasn't taken off is that people are so worn down and demoralized by living under workplace discipline that they are seldom capable of organizing anything in their free time. Most of the time, this narrowing of the horizons goes hand in hand with a mentality which relies on consumer goods and career-status for a sense of self-worth. Breaking that restrictive, deadening pattern in people's lives may be a result of any transition, but it is also largely a prerequisite for the transition to happen.
Housing co-operatives, brewing your own beer and wine and swapping them with friends, giving/receiving used furniture, solar power generators, coming up with Steal This Book ways to supply your needs for free, and non-copyright creative production are even taken together a small step, but they may help people re-evaluate what is important in their lives and find a bit of breathing space to start to live and think differently. These methods also do not suffer from the problem of being entrenched in the capitalist mode of production. They may not be "outside the system" but they do not rely on selling to a market, rather on people coming together to solve their own needs collectively. The obvious additional bonus is that the human relationships, networks and attitudes which are utilised and cultivated by these methods can themselves be used to drive a societal transition and demonstrate its viability. People need to know how to, and know that they can, solve their needs through co-operation in order for any transition to work properly.
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Thank you Joseph.
Solidarity Federation has done a lot of good work as you say & I have a lot of respect for that.
It was opinions I was after & suggestions for creating what we can today for the future we want tomorrow.
Most people here seem to think there isn't much point doing that at this stage and that is a definite view, which is fine, it was views & ideas I was after.
The busses were just an example of something positive & concrete that would help others to see the point of it all, sometimes there can be a lot of emphasis on fighting & destruction which turns a lot of people away when they'd agree with what we wanted if they stayed around to find out. That's just my opinion.
Of course a lot of people couldn't care less, and thats why people need to be politicized so they can think for themselves. Also in my opinion.
Thanks!