The secrecy and arrogance of the so-called "revolutionary" groups too closely resembles that of the system, and security culture is too often a regimenting force. Do you have some great future as a servant of the system that you have to protect? Will a criminal record or a record of your thoughts disturb your plans? In spite of all efforts to retain anonymity, individuals have often proved quite easily trackable. So why make such a big effort with the secrecy of your name or of what you've been doing? Are you or are you not your "avatar" (your internet persona)? If people's discontent with the system and sympathy with those who oppose it is a crime, such laws as prohibit it will always be ignored in spite of all contrary efforts on the part of the state. This has certainly been the case with free expression on the internet, as it was with it under dictatorships of all stripes, that people continue to do exactly as they please in spite of all laws and social norms. There are millions of people in this world that we will never know, and all possible mentalities and ways of life are to me equally due mutual respect, though some may lack the courage to come out into the world fearlessly and honestly to give themselves and their ideas to it, with no aspiration except simply to be fully alive. You are only one of millions breaking the law; you are only one of millions being themselves; you are a part of a massive, unmanageable pile of data that no authorities will wade through. And of course, if they were to do so, it would be pointless. Finally, one of billions of people on the planet, though certainly one of the few with access to the internet, you are as much as I entitled to have and express your ideas and thoughts no matter what. i am an anarchistic individual. i have a life given right to be myself, and to speak my mind if i wish. if governments or individuals, in their police or business work, wish to entertain themselves by tracking me and picking bits of the history of my life out of context to use against me, I can only laugh disgustedly at their efforts. If they are concerned about and want to burrow into my life they will only find a life much less impoverished than their own, and just as much a life not owned. And if they would realize that their lives are their own, they would be better off, as am I. There is nothing secret about revolution. If everyone wants it and knows it then we will have it. And so you might as well let anyone know whatever they want, because after all, we want what everyone wants - to be ourselves, and to make a better world for ourselves to be in.
Aug 1 2008 09:49
Aug 1 2008 10:44
i'm writing for whoever reads it
Aug 1 2008 10:52
So basically you're saying that revolutionaries shouldn't be shy about giving the state access to their private lives? This is a staggeringly naive approach to basic personal and political security.
All states (including the "democratic" ones) monitor revolutionary currents, groups and individuals very closely. They attempt to infiltrate groups that they perceive as being (or one day becoming) a threat. When the working class is on the move, known revolutionaries are rounded up and put in camps or simply shot on sight.
The internet, far from facilitating free speech, has made it easier than ever to track revolutionary activities - this is part of the price we pay for using this forum to spread our ideas. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't make the secret state work as hard as possible for it's information rather than handing it our lives on a platter!
Aug 1 2008 10:55
what i'm saying is revolutionaries shouldn't stop talking to people because they're afraid of getting tracked or busted or harassed.
i don't mean "hand the state your life on a platter," but don't refuse it to everyone because you think the man's always listening in.
a feeling of inflated self-importance and paranoia in this realm go hand in hand.
Aug 1 2008 10:58
anarchyjordan wrote:
So why make such a big effort with the secrecy of your name or of what you've been doing? Are you or are you not your "avatar" (your internet persona)?
if i used my real name to post on forums from work, sometimes discussing organising against the boss, a simple google would get me fired pretty quick. that'd be dumb.
Aug 1 2008 11:01
Quote:
"When the working class is on the move, known revolutionaries are rounded up and put in camps or simply shot on sight."
first of all, i think you're living in a paranoid fantasy world. and anyway, is that any reason not to be a known revolutionary?
second of all, on the move or not, the working class themselves are the revolutionaries, not its self-proclaimed spokesmen. Getting put in a camp or shot on sight isn't so bad compared to a life of self-imposed paranoid silence ... or even to a life 'spreading your ideas' only through internet forums.
Aug 1 2008 11:04
Joseph K. wrote:
anarchyjordan wrote:
So why make such a big effort with the secrecy of your name or of what you've been doing? Are you or are you not your "avatar" (your internet persona)?if i used my real name to post on forums from work, sometimes discussing organising against the boss, a simple google would get me fired pretty quick. that'd be dumb.
i guess if you think so fine, but first of all, you should be doing your organizing in the workplace itself. then i guess if the boss had a simple chat with the boys on the shop floor it would "get you fired pretty quick" that he'd hear you'd been talking about this stuff. Well? fine. if that's what he's going to do fuck him. getting fired for organizing is great! you should totally risk it if you believe that by organizing you can get better conditions. there's nothing too anarchist about that though.
Aug 1 2008 11:11
Joseph K. wrote:
if i used my real name to post on forums from work, sometimes discussing organising against the boss, a simple google would get me fired pretty quick. that'd be dumb.
^this
I work for an agency, if one of the consultants in their Liverpool office were to link me to some of the stuff I post on the internet, I'd never get any work from them again.
Aug 1 2008 11:15
anarchyjordan wrote:
[i guess if you think so fine, but first of all, you should be doing your organizing in the workplace itself. then i guess if the boss had a simple chat with the boys on the shop floor it would "get you fired pretty quick" that he'd hear you'd been talking about this stuff. Well? fine. if that's what he's going to do fuck him. getting fired for organizing is great! you should totally risk it if you believe that by organizing you can get better conditions. there's nothing too anarchist about that though.
Don't be dim. Once you've actually got something up and running in the workplace, it's much more difficult for them to fire you, but you don't want to be singled out as a "ringleader" before things are off the ground. That's going to get you into a whole world of shit.
Aug 1 2008 11:24
anarchyjordan wrote:
then i guess if the boss had a simple chat with the boys on the shop floor it would "get you fired pretty quick" that he'd hear you'd been talking about this stuff. Well? fine. if that's what he's going to do fuck him. getting fired for organizing is great! you should totally risk it if you believe that by organizing you can get better conditions.
if i get fired, my cashflow's pretty fucked. if anything kicks off at work it is a risk i'm prepared to take. i'm not however going to take unneccessary risks for the sake of tEh ANaRkY!!!11
Aug 1 2008 11:26
anarchyjordan wrote:
getting fired for organizing is great!
<3
You know whats even more great? Being able to pay your rent!
Aug 1 2008 11:28
live in fear of what the liverpool office thinks. live in fear of losing tEh cashflow.
Aug 1 2008 11:34
why don't you go squat then, it's ok in england. rent is theft. or whatever, fine, just go right on with your safe little internet personae and burrow away real quiet like at the hull of the ship you're still comfortably afloat on. go on paying rent and never do anything except post online with your self-important efforts to maintain the pointless anonymity which you so crave -- great, you'll get it in the glorious communist society with the whole 'you're just a number, get back to work' thing. I guess you're right, you really don't want to take those unnecessary risks of actually doing anything.
Aug 1 2008 11:32
who said anything about living in fear? i mean i don't give my debit card and pin number to strangers on the train but i'm not 'living in fear of identity theft' either
But it's true, if i don't tell you, some random anarcho poseur/fake account my name, address and those of my workmates, then clearly i must do nothing, ever. ingenious.
Aug 1 2008 11:36
i'm not saying anything about you giving me your name address phone number debit card pin or any of the system's stupid numbers. i'm saying don't just "do nothing." act, and be brave in the face of the intimidation of a "big brother's watching you" paranoia.
Aug 1 2008 11:37
anarchyjordan wrote:
Quote:
"When the working class is on the move, known revolutionaries are rounded up and put in camps or simply shot on sight."first of all, i think you're living in a paranoid fantasy world.
27 years ago in our country, Turkey, the state detained over 650,000 people for political reasons (over 1% of the population), and thousands were murdered by 'dark forces'.
Maybe the whole country was living in 'a paranoid fantasy world' in those days.
Devrim
Aug 1 2008 11:40
as for 'getting singled out as a ringleader before things are off the ground,' i think you should know that most people are very stupid... there's no big conspiracy, they just act on inertia. i think you give the system's loyal servants too much credit.
Aug 1 2008 11:45
well that was 27 years ago, and, well, yes, the whole country was living in a crazed paranoid fantasy world, wasn't it?... today things are kinda different. but even if you live in a country with some crazed dictator obsessed with picking out potential subversives, in turkey or in latin america, then you still must be brave and speak your mind, even if it does mean risking your ass. nothing happens if you don't, and can you really help it anyway? once you realize how fucked up things are, you kinda have to speak up and do something... a lot of people here in the u.s. say things like "our military is out there fighting for your freedom to say that shit about this country," etc., but fuck that; freedom is whatever you can get away with! you can say anything you like as long as you can get away with it, in any country in the world, and i think you should.
Aug 1 2008 11:48
Anarchyjordan, I did you a favour and found those home pages for you:
www.adbusters.org
www.crimethinc.com
www.agorism.info
Through those pages you might be able to find others like yourself and get in touch, maybe you could talk about how to create an alternative society parallell with the brutal capitalist machine that the rest of the world lives in. Good luck!
Aug 1 2008 11:54
anarchyjordan wrote:
as for 'getting singled out as a ringleader before things are off the ground,' i think you should know that most people are very stupid... there's no big conspiracy, they just act on inertia. i think you give the system's loyal servants too much credit.
And I think you come across as incredibly arrogant and naive. Perspective's a funny thing, isn't it?
The reality is that employers do google people's names, they do sack people for tyring to organise, this isn't something we've all just made up off the top of our heads. There's no point taking unnecessary risks.
Aug 1 2008 11:55
I want to change my user name now :s
Aug 1 2008 12:06
anarchyjordan wrote:
Quote:
"When the working class is on the move, known revolutionaries are rounded up and put in camps or simply shot on sight."first of all, i think you're living in a paranoid fantasy world. and anyway, is that any reason not to be a known revolutionary?
second of all, on the move or not, the working class themselves are the revolutionaries, not its self-proclaimed spokesmen. Getting put in a camp or shot on sight isn't so bad compared to a life of self-imposed paranoid silence ... or even to a life 'spreading your ideas' only through internet forums.
You think being aware of what has happened to revolutionaries historically is paranoid? Why do you trust the government so much?
Revolutionaries are people who desire revolution and seek to bring it about, unfortunately this doesn't include the majority of the working class at the current time.
Who suggested we keep quiet or only do things on the internet?
Aug 1 2008 12:12
sorry you think i sound arrogant and naive... i don't know where you got that from... i'm not saying post under your real name... i'm saying don't fear. being aware is great, being paranoid isn't... i don't trust the government so much, i just think they're dumber than you give them credit for, and yes, i know those pages... all i'm saying is don't let it make you rigid.
Aug 1 2008 12:13
google your name then, there's probably a million people with your same name. big deal.
Aug 1 2008 12:14
AJ
Your vision of militancy appears to be based on an individualist vision where your worth as a militant is judge by your ability to get yourself sacked or even shot. This sounds very much llike bravado, rather than experience, especially your response to Devrim's considered reply. But it is the logical outcome of an vision of militancy based on one's own activity. Weeler is right to show that one has a much more effective militant activity as part of an organization than as a lone radical individual. This does not mean doing nothing, but one can see activity as more than just ones workplace. Clearly in the workplace one speaks to fellow workers etc, but to deliberately put ones livelihood and that of one's family at risk is stupidity and an empty gesture.
AJ do you agree with the need for revolutionary political organisation?
Aug 1 2008 12:14
anarchyjordan wrote:
i'm not saying post under your real name... i'm saying don't fear.
and who, pray tell, is afraid?
Aug 1 2008 12:15
anarchyjordan wrote:
google your name then, there's probably a million people with your same name. big deal.
3, at the last count. a lax attitude to this kinda thing landed me in the high court once, so it's not groundless paranoia either (not for doing anything particularly worthwhile, lest this sound like martyr-boasting).
Aug 1 2008 12:22
Quote:
Your vision of militancy appears to be based on an individualist vision where your worth as a militant is judge by your ability to get yourself sacked or even shot."
no, it's based on a techno-communist vision where your worth as a militant is judged by your number of posts and your ability to get a cushy job and even rich. 
Quote:
bravado, rather than experience, especially your response to Devrim's considered reply
i didn't disagree with devrim. turkey was living in a paranoid fantasy world at the time.
your own activity just isn't as important to the police as you'd like to think it is. they don't know or care, and there are too many of us to track. don't think that the possibilities are so limited as an individual. i can get a lot more done on my own than by waiting for consensus or majority agreement in some militant-y group. i don't tend to like militants either, too robotic.
Quote:
This does not mean doing nothing, but one can see activity as more than just ones workplace
certainly. i see activity as more than just ones internet persona too.
Quote:
deliberately put ones livelihood and that of one's family at risk is stupidity and an empty gesture.
well actually if you ask me to be a worker in a coal mine or something where you'll probably die of black lung is doing that just the same, so if that were my situation i'd say fuck it i'm going all out to organize and make that revolution because i ain't gonna live twice.
i don't agree with the need for revolutionary political organization from the top down. but i do think that people can organize themselves from the bottom up, and that requires speaking your mind openly and not by means of some secret organization or of some terrorist cell bullshit, or forming into a tightly-knit group of militants that sets itself up above the people as some vanguard.
Aug 1 2008 12:25
Quote:
3, at the last count.
sorry you have such a unique name...but whatever that's not the point of my post anyway. the post has less to do with outing your name than with setting yourself up above the people as some unassailable revolutionary identity, abstract and impersonal, an embodiment of all that is militant and revolutionary.
Aug 1 2008 12:29
anarchyjordan wrote:
sorry you think i sound arrogant and naive... i don't know where you got that from... i'm not saying post under your real name... i'm saying don't fear. being aware is great, being paranoid isn't... i don't trust the government so much, i just think they're dumber than you give them credit for, and yes, i know those pages... all i'm saying is don't let it make you rigid.
Nobody's being paranoid, nobody's "living in fear", you're tilting at windmills.
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