Troubled; An Anarchist Primer on the Occupation of the North of Ireland

Sinn Fein were for a socialist republic, the IRA were fighting for a socialist republic? What utter dross.

Yeah from a quick glance this seems totally bizarre. Who wrote it?

Some numpty. Love how it skips from a ridiculously crude depiction of the plantation straight to the war of independance, leaving out the small matter of the united irishmen rising and therefore being able to present the whole history as one of protestant colonialisation.

The fact the clown thinks hes educating folk in britain about anything is hilarious.

Also, what revol said.

Jesus what an appalling pamphlet

Also posted on Indymedia UK at around the same time. Didn't go down well there, either...

Oh Alasdair.... of course!!!

I can read.

I meant whose Alasdair Elmwood? Google gives nothing but the pamphlet and the pamphlet doesn't say who produced it apart from the the name "Alasdair Elmwood".

But yeah cheers for the help.

I was just teasing! But I'll refer you to revol's post for a more illuminating answer:

To answer your question: I don't think anyone knows. Possibly not even Alasdair Elmwood. Maybe a pseudonym, anyway. Best guess: some bloke posting shit on the Internet.

That said, it would be good to have an introductory text on the subject which was actually decent…

Indeed.

A big problem though is that the history of the troubles is not only complicated but can be broken up into very different sections.

68-72: NICRA up to Bloody Sunday

72-75: Bloody Sunday up to failure of Sunningdale

75-81: Sunningdale to Hunger Strikes

81-98: Hungerstrikes to Good Friday

98-12: Good Friday to today

Now while the last three periods would be relatively easy to write, (war is bad mmmkay), the first earlier periods would be where I'd find it hard. Or rather tying in all the periods together would be hard.

Ok. In before revol68 says something. But fair play to you for trying to address what is a pretty tricky issue. But this is a very complex situation and I think you really need to look at it again.

revol68 is from NI, as is omen (I think) I'm from Dublin and all of us would have a lot of contact with Irish republicanism and have thought about and debated the situation in the North, both presently and historically, quite a lot.

And to put a blunt edge on this - although I have only skim read it, the pamphlet seems very wrong about a lot of things.

The big point is that regardless of whether the situation in Northern Ireland in the 70s/80s can be described as British imperialism or not (something I think revol and I would disagree on), Northern Ireland is not a topic that you can address by considering it solely as a struggle between anti-imperialists and imperialists. That isn't what happened. A massive, perhaps the dominant, aspect of the struggle in the North was an internecine war between two sections of the Northern working class based on ethno-religious identity and the quest to create a nation state based on that identity to the exclusion of the other identity. (In very crude terms, 1 million catholic workers vs 1 million protestant workers.) That very messy aspect of the struggle is something you have to address and simply saying that unionists are 'bought off' or can be disregarded because the identify with the British state is nowhere near enough.

If you go rooting the archives of this site you'll find some debates on this issue. Or if you go and look at the work of the WSM or Organise! the two main anarchist groups in Ireland you'll find stuff there as well. I'd recommend you do that.

No, I just have a big mouth. Perhaps you are confusing me with Eamonn?

(Wouldn't mind seeing a decent anarchist take on this subject, though. Something introductory, brief, and not mental.)

Question for y'all: is this book worth checking out?

a good one, read it a few months ago

Georgestapleton, you think imperialism is a good term for understanding the uks role in northern ireland in the 70's and 80's? By what meaningful definition of imperialism, as opposed to the empty sloganeering way it is bandied about by so many on the "left", does the reality meet that criteria? Economic exploitation of raw materials, cheap labour? Or a massive drain on the UK economy that they are stuck with due to the presence of a million people who still define themselves as british no matter how little the british government could care for them? The presence of the british state in the norrh is a lefacy of colonialism and ironically the non imperialist relations between the north east and the rest of the UK at the turn of the 20th century.

If you want a romanticised notion of the IRA and its "revolutionary" past/potential, going on hearing him discuss republicanism in person. The repiblican socialist tradition is fundamentally reactionary in that socialism is defined as the true realisation of the irish nation rather than its destruction.

Anti Eire!

Just want to point out that when this was posted to @News, it was intruduced like this:

I question if the authors are really in solidarity, seemed like they wanted to pick a fight.

While I agree that the text has many flaws it can be excused on the grounds that all too often Anarchists have consistently failed to produce a cogent synthesis on Ireland.
On too many occasions on a personal level I witnessed comrades being dismissive or refusing to acknowledge the particular relovence to Anarchists of the State's modes operandi in the occupied 6 counties.
This attitude was a glaring oversight on an issue which gave Libertarians a close insight into the brutal State oppression of the anti-Unionist working class.
This was a war in which religious/sectarian fault lines were deliberately extenuated in order to copperfasten Imperialist rule going back 800 years!
Every facet of unbridled State oppression was utilised in order to intimidate and destroy any resistance to the 6 county state whether by State/Loyalist death squads,Internment without trial,pogroms,gerrymandering,torture,racism and more.
That so many Anarchists were dismissive and refused to learn because all they saw was "just Nationalism" shows a myopic and ignorant attitude that betrays flaws in their own ideological theory.

Maybe failed to produce one which supports the Irish Republican sympathies that the rest of your post betrays, thats not the same as not being clear.

That statement shows your lack of knowledge and total ignorance onthe subject.That you can make a snap judgement because a couple of phrases are also used by Republicans merely shows the malaise that yourself and sadly some Anarchists labour under!
The DAM produced a belated document on Ireland that in my view was an excellent Anarchist analysis of the Irish war,it also used terminology like "anti-unionist,partition,6counties.." That does not mean that the DAM was pro-Republican or supported the IRA!
If you can't understand that then clarity and education is something you are in need of!

Do you know where I live?
Anarchists in 'the occupied 6 counties' have consistently espoused a VERY clear internationalist and more importantly antinationalist line, in a place where such ideas have very, very little currency and over the years, for their troubles, have been threatened by loyalists and the representatives of the 'anti-unionist working class' alike.
Our analysis may not suit your reading of events, but to say its not clear is dishonest.

All the more reason to stop making snap judgements and come up with an Anarchist analysis.!

I wouldnt bother with someone who calls themselves freemind, I dont think us sheeple would ever be able to win round such a free thinker.

And yes there has been enough said about the the national question on this site and others. It does seem that what some people actually want is a new revisionist anti imperialist analysis to take into account the shinners now in power sharing and the lumpen rump that constitutes the dissidents.

Snap judgements? Where exactly has anyone made snap judgements? Do you think maybe the majority of responses to thus joke of a pamphlet might actually have came from irish posters both north and south and from both unionist and nationalist backgrounds and as such are anything but snap, y'know since they might have considerable experience discussing this issue and also having their ear much closer to the ground.

*sigh*

One of the "excusable" pamphlet's "many flaws":

Um?

[Large text is as in the original.]

Just got the rest of your post which did not come up initially so apologies if my last post was prematurely terse.
I'm sure Anarchists in the 6 counties have espoused a clear internationalist line PartyBucket but my criticism was of English Anarchists specifically.
Your analysis is not the problem-the problem is with the complacency and lack of knowledge I have encountered from English Anarchists during my activism which I found disappointing to say the least.
With respect and if I'm wrong. I apologise I sense that you have taken my initial statement personally.I would never be so arrogant as to condescend or dictate to comrades who actually live in Ireland-I respect them too much!
However by the same token I would expect a comrade to understand that my position stated was not pro-Republican.My statement was a few paragraphs long so any judgement would surely be best left until a few posts later,in order to form a more comprehensive view.

Your post used all the jargon of crappy anti imperialism, something pretty big in the 80s obviously but just seems quaint now especially to anarchists from the north who have had a sickener of it from the english "left" for years.

Rev ol68!
The snap judgement is on myself being accused of an Irish republican viewpoint not any defence of the pamphlet.OMEN-stop the cheap insinuation and twisting of words!The term "excusable" was used to emphasise the recognition that at least someone has tried to address the issue-SIGH!