And also imposing the use of monopoly money on us northerners.
Oct 16 2012 21:04
Oct 16 2012 21:05
I'd like to read SUBVERSION's and I hope every Anarchist text is an improvement.
Oct 16 2012 21:07
PartyBucket wrote -
Quote:
Its one of the most glaring errors sadly some anarchists make in their analysis of Northern Ireland that they cant see the difference between being against the British state because it is a state and being against the British state because it is the British state.
Fair enough except for one point, I've never come across any anarchists in britain who wish to see either a 1 state or 2 state ireland. I appreciate you might of, but I haven't yet and I've met a fe -w.
revol68 wrote -
Quote:
but a term very useful if you are looking to push a simplistic "analysis" (emphasis on anal)
What does that mean?
Oct 16 2012 21:11
plasmatelly wrote:
PartyBucket wrote -Quote:
Its one of the most glaring errors sadly some anarchists make in their analysis of Northern Ireland that they cant see the difference between being against the British state because it is a state and being against the British state because it is the British state.Fair enough except for one point, I've never come across any anarchists in britain who wish to see either a 1 state or 2 state ireland. I appreciate you might of, but I haven't yet and I've met a fe -w.
revol68 wrote -
Quote:
but a term very useful if you are looking to push a simplistic "analysis" (emphasis on anal)What does that mean?
Was a shitty pun, quite literally.
Oct 16 2012 21:13
Freemind wrote -
Quote:
I'd like to read SUBVERSION's and I hope every Anarchist text is an improvement.
Subversion were 5/6 spiteful left-communists who sat on the tailcoats of a few anarchists in the early '90's.
Oct 16 2012 21:17
plasmatelly wrote:
Fair enough except for one point, I've never come across any anarchists in britain who wish to see either a 1 state or 2 state ireland. I appreciate you might of, but I haven't yet and I've met a few
I wasnt referring to what kind of Ireland they might 'wish to see', rather their view of republicanism as an antistatist force per se,cos of all the guns and bombs and wooly faces and that, when it is in fact simply anti-British statist.
Oct 16 2012 21:20
Thanks for the info
Oct 16 2012 21:22
PartyBucket wrote
Quote:
I wasnt referring to what kind of Ireland they might 'wish to see', rather their view of republicanism as an antistatist force per se,cos of all the guns and bombs and wooly faces and that, when it is in fact simply anti-British statist.
Yes, I've seen this too, to a degree. Political laziness probably. I think there's less of this these days though; but I can see that it might piss you off.
Oct 16 2012 22:13
well what a result for "Our Wee Occupied Six Counties", Jonny Evans showed his Rathcoole roots with a performance that exalted "No Surrender", whilst the whole team were as defiant and heroic as the apprentice boys of Derry in the face of the Portuguese Papish hordes.
Ref was a bit of a Lundy bastard with the 5 mins of added time.
Oct 16 2012 22:52
freemind wrote:
I'd like to read SUBVERSION's and I hope every Anarchist text is an improvement.
Here is the subversion text:
http://libcom.org/library/ireland-nationalism-imperialism-myths-subversion
I would be interested to read the DAM one. Does anyone have one they could give to us to scan?
Oct 17 2012 00:49
Someone important said something like it doesn't matter what you write but rather what sort of conversation it generates. I'm from the North of Ireland and this sort of discussion is what's needed.
Also, I don't think the pamphlet is quite saying let's all join a new IRA. I think it's just saying that things are shit and the political process isn't going to solve the root problem of State oppression.
Someone also said that 'we' seem to mix up anti-British sentiment with anti-State sentiment. We do and we need not only look to our attitudes to Palestine as an example.
I'm an anarchist but I've happily held the Palestinian flag and paid some sense of homage to the damned thing. It's not because I'm passionate for a state solution there but rather that I associate that flag as a flag of resistance.
Do you think people flying the Yorkshire flag are wanna-be statists? Of course not, it's a symbol of defiance like the Palestinian flag and yes, occasionally like the tricolour in the North.
Oct 17 2012 01:06
I think there are far more pressing conversations than those over the irrelevant national question. I fail tonsee what the constitutional matter of northern ireland has to do with the interests of the working class in the north, south, Great Britain or Europe for that matter. In so much as there needs to be a conversation it should be one about the need for the working class to assert itself independently of nationalisms, of whatever stripe.
Also comparing Northern Ireland and the situation in Palestine is really quite absurd, not that I think anarchists waving palestinian flags arent confused numpties anyway.
Oct 17 2012 01:26
In a similar way that us waving red and blacks shows us to be confused numpties? Yes, there are far more pressing issues over that of national identities and supposed solutions. Again as the pamphlet says the bigger issues at large for Anarchists is having the common fucking courtesy to look at Ireland and think what happened there and what that teaches us of the British State. Equally, it shows the State in its most fluid, active form as an instrument of mass, violent oppression which is, at root, what we oppose it for. Therefore when people oppose the British State in Ireland we should be in chorus or solidarity with them.
That doesn't mean we need to support every aspect of their struggle which, as we've been discussing, is sometime anathema to our egalitarian, libertarian ethos etc, etc.
Again, returning to Palestine (and I think we raised this on indymedia) it makes good sense to stand by the Palestinian struggle and draw lines in the sand with what we support and what we do not. I've met many Anarchists who've been proud to have an affinity with Islamic Jihad or the early Hamas for some pretty interesting reasons the prime one being that of non cooperation with the State.
This friend was a Jewish queer and I was naturally shocked at their statement. When I questioned further they said they don't support Islamic Jihad but my friend as an anti-Zionist said they at least had the coherency and fucking balls to oppose Zionism and refuse cooperation with the Zionists.
In that sense, they had solidarity.
Ireland isn't Palestine and the IRA(s) are not equivalent to Islamic Jihad. However, I had a discussion recently with an anarchist from southern ireland who said to me that as an anarchist she was a dissident in the language of the peace process.
She, like me, did not support the Real IRA or the like but there was a sense of solidarity as they shared an enemy. Importantly, these dissidents refused political cooperation with the State which is a really important thing for us as Anarchists.
Amongst many other reasons, political noncompliance is why we join the IWW and not the GMB or SolFed instead of the Fabian Society [maybe bad comparison, don't get mad solfedders!].
As it says in the essay, resistance does not end with political process and rightly so. There can be no negotiated end with the British State as per with any State. What should be worrying to people reading it, as it seems a lot of people I know are blissfully unaware, is the immense levels of repression and violence carried out by the British State.
As Anarchists we should be in solidarity with resisters to British rule everywhere. Where more applicable then the fucking fields and streets of Ulster where our tax money is spent to carry it out?
Oct 17 2012 01:32
Quote:
''Like many ofanti-imperialist armies in the 20th Century the IRA operated under a hierarchical structure. Through time those that could work the bureaucracy of armed resistance rose through the ranks of the IRA and equally, those that couldn't stomach the armed resistance, worked their way up the positions of Sinn Fein. As leaders became more divorced from those exercising resistance on the streets so to did the ideas existing at the bases of support. With steady inclusion into negotiations and government came a gradual conservatism from the Sinn Fein and IRA leadership that developed throughout the 1 980s as Sinn Fein establishes itself as a political movement willing to cooperate with the British State. By 1 998 and the peace agreements that would allow Sinn Fein executive power in a devolved Northern Irish government this conservative process was complete. The Sinn Fein of today acts as a housekeeper to the British State in the North of Ireland ensuring the rapid delivery of, amongst other services, policing, housing and employment. They have thus been incorporated into a political system which, from the outset, they argued was absolutely rotten to the core under the influence of British occupation and international capitalism.''
The above is from the pamphlet and it's a good retort to whoever said that I was trying to get support up for the IRA.
It pretty much says that hierarchical entities are doomed to cooperation with the State. Again, I think this essay isn't too shocking beyond the news it delivers. It's pretty standard anarchist theorising.
Oct 17 2012 03:49
alasdairelmwood wrote:
I'm an anarchist but I've happily held the Palestinian flag and paid some sense of homage to the damned thing. It's not because I'm passionate for a state solution there but rather that I associate that flag as a flag of resistance.Do you think people flying the Yorkshire flag are wanna-be statists? Of course not, it's a symbol of defiance like the Palestinian flag and yes, occasionally like the tricolour in the North.
So you delude yourself as to what national flags actually represent, you arent the first or last lefty to do so.
Oct 17 2012 07:51
alasdairelmwood wrote:
The above is from the pamphlet and it's a good retort to whoever said that I was trying to get support up for the IRA.
I had that specific section in mind when I wrote my post! As I also said, your anarchist critique was that the IRA gave up armed struggle and cooperated with the state. By rehabilitating the IRA I meant your pamphlet has a misty-eyed view of the early IRA, then goes on criticise the IRA for giving up, before looking forward to a return to the good ol' days of bombs hidden in bins in shopping centres cop/squaddie killing. At least that is how it reads to me.
You claim your pamphlet is an introduction, but fail to even mention that the IRA killed anyone who wasn't a cop or soldier, even in your "critique" of the IRA. Is that not a bit of an oversight?
Oct 17 2012 11:30
alasdairelmwood wrote:
Therefore when people oppose the British State in Ireland we should be in chorus or solidarity with them.I had a discussion recently with an anarchist from southern ireland who said to me that as an anarchist she was a dissident in the language of the peace process.
She, like me, did not support the Real IRA or the like but there was a sense of solidarity as they shared an enemy. Importantly, these dissidents refused political cooperation with the State which is a really important thing for us as Anarchists.As Anarchists we should be in solidarity with resisters to British rule everywhere.
So, you let your politics be dictated by others? "They would call me a 'dissident' too so I just have to be in solidarity with other people they call dissidents, regardless of how abhorrent their politics are"?
All you've managed to expound is another leftist cliche, namely "The Enemy Of My Enemy Is My Friend". Its politically bankrupt unprincipled shite, beloved of scum like Galloway as a justification for their alliances with and support for religious conservatives and despotic regimes.
A person calling themselves an anarchist should have more fucking wit.
Oct 17 2012 11:33
alasdairelmwood wrote:
Do you think people flying the Yorkshire flag are wanna-be statists? Of course not, it's a symbol of defiance like the Palestinian flag and yes, occasionally like the tricolour in the North.
If there were a demo about "freeing Yorkshire" from the tyranny of the southern devils, with people waving Yorkshire flags crying "remember the harrying of the north" and singing "On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at", with leaflets urging people to "buy Yorkshire" at Morrisons and demanding the return of Saddleworth and war reparations from Lancashire, then calling them wanna-be statists would be me being polite.
Although as a matter of fact, yeah, people flying Yorkshire flags are definitely "statists" as are everyone bar a couple of hundred people in the UK.
Oct 17 2012 17:28
As I recall, the DAM pamphlet in the 80s (which I don't think was published and took ages to agree, or more accurately, people stopped disagreeing) definitely used language that could be construed as republican.
The problem for us as anarchists on this is that there is an external binary imposed by popular discourse (and muich of the left). Against the IRA? You must be pro-unionist. Against the sectarian statelet, why don't you support the iRA?
What the DAM was clear about was that we took our lead from anarchists in Ireland, particularly Organise and their forerunners, as they actually have to live under the contradictions.
For those on here who think the dissident republicans offer any sort of way forward, is there any sort of argument for this? Yes, the peace process is flawed and the result of the desire of the British and Irish states and the interests of most of the political groups in the North for a "business or politics as usual". However, I beleive largely taking political violence outside of "politics as normal" is a definite gain for workers on all sides of the divide. There are plenty of examples of people being killed merely because of their religious background by armed gangs on both sides. Calling for the continuation of these is hardly an anarchist viewpoint.
Regards,
Oct 17 2012 17:31
BTW I don't think flying a Yorkshire flag (or any other county's) makes someone a nationalist. I know plenty of anarchists who would have great pride in being from Yorkshire but don't think there should be a state anywhere in these isles.
However, this sort of regionalist thing can lead to nationalism, and it should be opposed when it does.
Oct 17 2012 21:19
As poor as the pamphlet may be, most British anarchists learnt very little about Northern Ireland in their boarding schools and would come out with worse if asked to opine on Ulster.
Oct 17 2012 21:46
thegunshow wrote:
As poor as the pamphlet may be, most British anarchists learnt very little about Northern Ireland in their boarding schools and would come out with worse if asked to opine on Ulster.
Presumably the unicorn that was taking the class thought that the plight of the Atlanteans was a more pressing issue, or something.
Oct 18 2012 08:29
Thegunshow: authentic prole.
Oct 18 2012 16:46
Let's not be too harsh on thegunshow, I for one feel I could benefit enormously from some insider knowledge on the best shell suits to wear this autumn - these tweeds are making me stand out a tad amongst the riff-raff.
Oct 18 2012 20:25
revol68 wrote:
well what a result for "Our Wee Occupied Six Counties", Jonny Evans showed his Rathcoole roots with a performance that exalted "No Surrender", whilst the whole team were as defiant and heroic as the apprentice boys of Derry in the face of the Portuguese Papish hordes.Ref was a bit of a Lundy bastard with the 5 mins of added time.
Does Jonny Tuffey ever get a game as goalkeeper for NI Revol?
Oct 18 2012 20:34
Gonna print off copys of that to give to lefties here in Glasgow, so that they know what is at stake if we do not vote for scottish independance and SMASH THE BRITISH IMPERIALIST STATE..
Get some wolfetones on the go comrades!
Nov 2 2012 19:06
georgestapleton wrote:
revol68 wrote:
Angelus Novus wrote:
Question for y'all: is this book worth checking out?If you want a romanticised notion of the IRA and its "revolutionary" past/potential, going on hearing him discuss republicanism in person. The repiblican socialist tradition is fundamentally reactionary in that socialism is defined as the true realisation of the irish nation rather than its destruction.
Anti Eire!
Errr what revol says isn't wrong, but.....
Tommy is probably one of the few remaining intelligent socialist republicans, he's thoughtful and you can engage with him. I massively disagree with him. But if you are looking for a decent history of the Provisional IRA from a socialist who gave most of his life to that organisation and has been one of the most prominent critics of Sinn Fein from the left for that last 15 or so years, then yeah I've heard the book is pretty good.
If you are looking for a decent libertarian communist book on the provos none exist. There are obviously a number of better known books on the provos but everything I"ve heard about Tommy's book is that its pretty good. Its obviously extremely biased and coming from a very specific political angle that is no longer occupied by many people but yeah if you are looking for a book on the troubles or the IRA, I figure its a good place to start. (Assuming you are capable of reading a book critically.
)
It and Conor McCabe's 'Sins of Our Fathers' are the two Irish far left books of the last 5 years that I really want to read.
I haven't read this yet either, but I jsut saw that a friend had a review of the book in the NLR a few months back. http://newleftreview.org/II/73/daniel-finn-the-soldier-s-swansong
Nov 2 2012 19:34
lzbl wrote:
Thegunshow: authentic prole.
Are you disputing that most anarchos over here know fuck all about ireland?
Nov 2 2012 19:43
Choccy wrote:
lzbl wrote:
Thegunshow: authentic prole.Are you disputing that most anarchos over here know fuck all about ireland?
so your claiming most anarchists have been to private school?
Can comment on articles and discussions
That and when they cry on about uniting the working class by removing the border they overlook they aren't removing a border but moving it, so that it is now one between workers in northern ireland and the rest of the UK.