two beginning communist questions

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It's hard to express, I tried writing something twice already (and I've searched the forums), but each time I thought I was rambling on. Sorry if I ramble again.

Some Marxist and leftists (I guess they should be called social-democrats, but I don't fully know who goes to what box) talk about 'zero growth economy'. I think this is bunk, because I believe that capital needs to expand to survive (at any cost, including things getting very ugly). But this is just a belief and so not worth much. I want to understand if this is true and why. I'm pretty sure it is and what's convincing me are arguments by well-analyzed sounding/looking marxists like David Harvey who notheless advocate 'zero growth economy'. But I think he just says that stuff because it's not politically correct to say 'revolution'.

I never get very far trying to imagine what 'revolution' might be like, but I manage to image changes in common sense of things where belief in things like 'ownership' don't get much regard anymore because of recognition that ownerships of important things implies ownership of the people who depend on them. which is considered very wrong

So what's zero growth economy? it sounds like things are going on as they are, just reconfigured to not make any growth. there's profits and losses like in any capitalist system, but there's no net gain for the whole society in terms of profits. so GPD growth stands at 0 percent, but capitalism still works because companies take on the task of replacing decaying stuff and compete and make their profit in that market. workers compete for jobs in these companies. it goes one same as it ever was, but at lower profit rate. as long as workers work for wages, capitalist make a profit. I don't fully understand the theory of surplus value either (not proud, just impatient), but I don't think it's important here. so even if businesses were not growing in the amount of income they could still be raking it in. so it looks like 'zero growth economy' is within the terms of the current economy and so it sounds realistic.

So my first question is: why can't capitalism continue with zero total growth for the total system? theorists like Gilles Dauve talk about the 'law of value' to explain why neither a nationalized economy nor a co-operatized economy (market socialism) would work. to me, it sounds kinda silly and inefficient to have markets, but I don't understand the arguments against them. what is this "Law of Value" that always reasserts itself?

Second question might seem insulting to communists, or somehow bourgeois or it would seem like that to me. I have positive answers to this question too (I think people are not keen to be idle just for the sake of it), but I want to hear a good reason. In a communist society, why wouldn't people try to offload everything difficult to the next person. They would try and pretend they have done enough (more than enough) work this week and should deserve all of society's wealth for their work, which just happens to be 12 hours of reading the news.

If suddenly the violent forces which uphold the system based on consent to ownership of sections of the world by certain people were to collapse (the cops got the swine flu, the national guard was on an extended holiday and the soldiers in the army decided xbox was more fun than shooting at fellow americans/uk'ers) would people be able to reorganize survival without resort to market exchange and hierarchies of command? I think they would resort to the old ways. So the advance to communism means not just new forms of organization by the workers, but also new values.

Would the desire to produce for the world and human species (instead of slacking off and consuming) be part of these new values coming from struggle or would it emerge naturally from freedom? Most cynically and and most importantly, why would anyone work more hard than they have to, except in the hope of advancing to a more ruling position in society? (thought collective volunteer efforts like wikipedia imply this is not true) And without this motivation, how could we cooperate to provide each other a better standard of living than we already have? Would freeloading be a problem or not? Why do I fear it would be (permission to psychoanalyze). Certainly getting some wealth for ourselves and away from the rich would be nice, but that's a demand of social democracy. Would we still be standing when we took the next few unsure steps beyond that?

This is pretty rambling because I have been drinking.

I'll try to gather up my own thoughts and put it as directly as I can manage: first, why must capital expand in the real world (new stuff build, not new paper issued) to survive and second, how will a society based on voluntary labor manage to provide for itself without resorting to coercion?

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In a communist society, why wouldn't people try to offload everything difficult to the next person. They would try and pretend they have done enough (more than enough) work this week and should deserve all of society's wealth for their work, which just happens to be 12 hours of reading the news.

Possibly due to calculation of their work-time (which could be automated at present) until a time comes where there's no real reason that this would be a problem. So, for example, a labour credit model, examples of which are given here and here. Usually, proponents of this do hold that some things should be made immediately available by 'free access', at least up to a certain amount, such as energy, food, water and housing. However, I don't really see the question applying to these. I suppose that I'll leave answering this question on the subject of a free-access society to the anarcho-commies. Though I suppose that if they support fairly small-scale communities, it wouldn't really be that easy for somebody to pretend that they did some work when they didn't. Also, in an FA society, there wouldn't really be much need to pretend to work.

It seems you specified a 'society based on voluntary labour', so an FA society, in that case. I don't really see why you would pretend to labour if labour was voluntary, tbh. Anyways, yeah, never mind me then. I had mainly been misled by you referring to a 'communist society', in which there could be either LTVs or FA.

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I think people are not keen to be idle just for the sake of it

Well, yes, but there sure are a lot more entertaining things to do than work.

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If suddenly the violent forces which uphold the system based on consent to ownership of sections of the world by certain people were to collapse (the cops got the swine flu, the national guard was on an extended holiday and the soldiers in the army decided xbox was more fun than shooting at fellow americans/uk'ers) would people be able to reorganize survival without resort to market exchange and hierarchies of command? I think they would resort to the old ways. So the advance to communism means not just new forms of organization by the workers, but also new values.

So basically, are you saying that most workers would have to be socialist in order for socialism to be brought about, or...?

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Most cynically and and most importantly, why would anyone work more hard than they have to, except in the hope of advancing to a more ruling position in society?

To pursue their interests and hobbies, probably. To be honest, I don't really mind people going around not working and only living on necessities if they choose to do so, but I don't think that most people would prefer doing that. Alternatively because the labour in question is a creative and enjoyable activity, in the same way that many writers do so voluntarily and not for money.

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So the zero growth model would mean that capital functions only to reproduce itself but not to extend and expand itself?

It doesn't seem at all desirable for any worker because at the end of the day they'll still be poor and their boss still rich and in power. And it doesn't seem desirable to the bourgeoisie, because what's being rich and powerful without getting richer and more powerful? That's the name of the game isn't it?

What was the context that they brought it up? like, a speech or a paper?

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We in the SPGB are seeking a "steady-state economy" which corresponds to what Marx called "simple reproduction" - a situation where human needs were in balance with the resources needed to satisfy them.
Such a society would already have decided, according to its own criteria and through its own decision-making processes, on the most appropriate way to allocate resources to meet the needs of its members. This having been done, it would only need to go on repeating this continuously from production period to production period. Production would not be ever-increasing but would be stabilized at the level required to satisfy needs. All that would be produced would be products for consumption and the products needed to replace and repair the raw materials and instruments of production used up in producing these consumer goods. The point about such a situation is that there will no longer be any imperative need to develop productivity, i.e. to cut costs in the sense of using less resources; nor will there be the blind pressure to do so that is exerted under capitalism through the market. Of course, technical research would continue and this would no doubt result in costs being able to be saved, but there would be no external pressure to do so or even any need to apply all new productivity enhancing techniques

Since the needs of consumers are always needs for a specific product at a specific time in a specific locality, we will assume that socialist society would leave the initial assessment of likely needs to a delegate body under the control of the local community (although, other arrangements are possible if that were what the members of socialist society wanted).

In a stable society such as socialism, needs would change relatively slowly. Hence it is reasonable to surmise that an efficient system of stock control, recording what individuals actually chose to take under conditions of free access from local distribution centres over a given period, would enable the local distribution committee to estimate what the need for food, drink, clothes and household goods would be over a similar future period. Some needs would be able to be met locally: local transport, restaurants, builders, repairs and some food are examples as well as services such as street-lighting, libraries and refuse collection. The local distribution committee would then communicate needs that could not be met locally to the bodies charged with coordinating supplies to local communities.
The individual would have free access to the goods on the shelves of the local distribution centres; the local distribution centres free access to the goods they required to be always adequately stocked with what people needed; their suppliers free access to the goods they required from the factories which supplied them; industries and factories free access to the materials, equipment and energy they needed to produce their products; and so on. Production and distribution in socialism would thus be a question of organising a coordinated and more or less self-regulating system of linkages between users and suppliers, enabling resources and materials to flow smoothly from one productive unit to another, and ultimately to the final user, in response to information flowing in the opposite direction originating from final users. The productive system would thus be set in motion from the consumer end, as individuals and communities took steps to satisfy their self-defined needs. Socialist production is self-regulating production for use.

Socialism will be a self regulating , decentralised inter-linked system to provide for a self sustaining steady state society. And we can set out a possible way of achieving an eventual zero growth steady state society operating in a stable and ecologically benign way. This could be achieved in three main phases.
First, there would have to be emergency action to relieve the worst problems of food shortages, health care and housing which affect billions of people throughout the world. Secondly, longer term action to construct means of production and infrastructures such as transport systems for the supply of permanent housing and durable consumption goods. These could be designed in line with conservation principles, which means they would be made to last for a long time, using materials that where possible could be re-cycled and would require minimum maintenance.
Thirdly, with these objectives achieved there could be an eventual fall in production, and society could move into a stable mode. This would achieve a rhythm of daily production in line with daily needs with no significant growth. On this basis, the world community could reconcile two great needs, the need to live in material well being whilst looking after the planet

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So basically, are you saying that most workers would have to be socialist in order for socialism to be brought about, or...?

Exactly !

For socialism to be established, there are two fundamental preconditions that must be met.
Firstly, the productive potential of society must have been developed to the point where, generally speaking, we can produce enough for all. This is not now a problem as we have long since reached this point.
Secondly, the establishment of socialism presupposes the existence of a mass socialist movement and a profound change in social outlook.

Humans behave differently depending upon the conditions that they live in. Human behaviour reflects society. In a society such as capitalism, people's needs are not met and reasonable people feel insecure. People tend to acquire and hoard goods because possession provides some security. People have a tendency to distrust others because the world is organized in such a dog-eat-dog manner. If people didn't work society would obviously fall apart. To establish socialism the vast majority must consciously decide that they want socialism and that they are prepared to work in socialist society. If people want too much? In a socialist society "too much" can only mean "more than is sustainably produced."
If people decide that they (individually and as a society) need to over-consume then socialism cannot possibly work. Under capitalism, there is a very large industry devoted to creating needs. Capitalism requires consumption, whether it improves our lives or not, and drives us to consume up to, and past, our ability to pay for that consumption. In a system of capitalist competition, there is a built-in tendency to stimulate demand to a maximum extent. Firms, for example, need to persuade customers to buy their products or they go out of business. They would not otherwise spend the vast amounts they do spend on advertising. There is also in capitalist society a tendency for individuals to seek to validate their sense of worth through the accumulation of possessions. As Marx contended, the prevailing ideas of society are those of its ruling class then we can understand why, when the wealth of that class so preoccupies the minds of its members, such a notion of status should be so deep-rooted. It is this which helps to underpin the myth of infinite demand. It does not matter how modest one's real needs may be or how easily they may be met; capitalism's "consumer culture" leads one to want more than one may materially need since what the individual desires is to enhance his or her status within this hierarchal culture of consumerism and this is dependent upon acquiring more than others have got. But since others desire the same thing, the economic inequality inherent in a system of competitive capitalism must inevitably generate a pervasive sense of relative deprivation. What this amounts to is a kind of institutionalised envy and that will be unsustainable as more peoples are drawn into alienated capitalism .

In socialism, status based upon the material wealth at one's command, would be a meaningless concept. The notion of status based upon the conspicuous consumption of wealth would be devoid of meaning because individuals would stand in equal relation to the means of production and have free access to the resultant goods and services . Why take more than you need when you can freely take what you need? In socialism the only way in which individuals can command the esteem of others is through their contribution to society, and the stronger the movement for socialism grows the more will it subvert the prevailing capitalist ethos, in general, and its anachronistic notion of status, in particular.
All wealth would be produced on a strictly voluntary basis. Work in socialist society could only be voluntary since there would be no group or organ in a position to force people to work against their will. Free access to goods and services denies to any group or individuals the political leverage with which to dominate others (a feature intrinsic to all private-property or class based systems through control and rationing of the means of life ) . This will work to ensure that a socialist society is run on the basis of democratic consensus. Goods and services would be provided directly for self determined needs and not for sale on a market; they would be made freely available for individuals to take without requiring these individuals to offer something in direct exchange. The sense of mutual obligations and the realisation of universal interdependency arising from this would profoundly colour people’s perceptions and influence their behaviour in such a society. We may thus characterise such a society as being built around a moral economy and a system of generalised reciprocity.

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thanks ajjohnstone. that's a very clear explanation.

I understand the concept of generalized reciprocity, but I've only heard of it being prevalent in societies with little specialization. It's hard for me to image how it would work with greater division of labor. In communities of generalized reciprocity, there are relationships build and rebuild through exchange so I can understand city block locality level work getting done on this basis - you can see the folks trimming the trees or fixing the road and everyone sees it as them doing everybody a favor. Without exclusive access to goods doing everyone a favor might be the greatest status symbol.

I'm thinking of cases where some unpleasant and not well-understood work that benefits many strangers must be done by few people. Say working in a stinky chemical factory (necessary to make medicine). I guess I can image if producing those stinky chemicals were vital to human health enough people would become interested in it ("why is there not enough angina medicine" they would say) and after some national/global discussion it would become clear to many people just how badly these chemicals were needed. Producing them would gain status and high regard for those who did it. Sounds like supply and demand but with status instead of cash.

Nowadays you can see many young people realizing that lack of food across the world is a terrible problem. But there are just no means for them to deal with it and ones that want to do something about "world hunger" end up sounding ridiculous or over-idealistic. Or they get involved in some charity, which takes a lot of sacrifice and only helps a little bit. I know it sounds very banal, but in a communist world more than enough people would work "to make a difference" and would receive satisfaction and meaning they can never find today because it would be possible to deal with social problems seriously and permanently, not in a fake way.

I guess it's hard to imagine how would people really think free from rat-race and in a world with free access to means of life. I trust humans enough to think that if they have the freedom they will figure it out.

btw,
The main place I've heard about zero-growth economy is some online lectures and an interview on Democracy Now by David Harvey. He's a Marxist geographer and a pretty cool guy to listen to, especially when it comes to understanding Capital.

I think his understanding of the idea must be closest to SPGB's "steady-state economy". I doubt he would call for a state where capital merely reproduces itself. Especially since he says that capital can't just reproduce without growth - it must expand or die. My problem is that I don't understand his (and I guess Marx's argument)