The 'Underclass'
Hi,
This is my first post on this forum so Hi, I'm anonation.
I'm currently in the underclass. Living between dubin and edinburgh.
I was wondering what an anarchist view on the underclass is, should they have equal
rights as workers. As I'm taking money off of the government, and buying a dvd every now
and then am I stealing from workers or just choosing the freedom to live without the burden of
actively supporting capitalism by working for a capitalist. It seems there's an area between
the underclass and working class - a lot of hostility comes from the working class to the
underclass because we're living our life off of the money the government takes from workers.
Yet, those workers are working for companies. It's like complaining about mosquitos and leaving
sacks of blood out over your house to bring them in.
Work, for many, isn't a choice. You work, or your kids become classless hobos and end up on the
mindfuqing addictions. So, for one who chose for the larger portion of his free life to be totally out of
sync with that idea and opt out of society I came to a realization that I should have the right to do that
and take on voluntary paid odd jobs for people. Though to do this I'd need training from someone who
knows a trade, and for that I'd need college or an apprenticeship, which again forces me into a lifestyle.
and to someone who was living in mental freedom - being forced into a lifestyle
could be easily compared to prison. So it was like
searching for a nice enough prison to learn a trade in. I felt extremely annoyed and wondered why I didn't
see men and women of the trades out my window, and why I couldn't just walk up to one and ask to watch
and learn, then learn and do. Then I learnt that the reason I don't see that, and can't do it is because of the government
and taxes and because of their assassination on all things truly human (imo). If you ask a builder "can I come in
and watch?" you get "no, health and safety, i'd get fired." and replying with "but it's my health and safety so surely
that's up to me" would be a feeble strike at the invisible wall.The same would go for anything else.
So here I am, tradeless and jobless waiting to try and get a job in a vegan soap shop so I can help
the family I am moving in with. I can't wait for this set of bars, they smell like blackcurrent handmade
vegan soap and 7am mornings and talking about work with other people who do work. The artistry of
the underclass is immense, if only those who like me ventured to want to live in a more human, artistic way
of simply taking opportunities as they arrise with no horrible add ons. I'd love the idea of work if it wasn't
forced on me. Just like anything, the fact that it's being forced onto you spoils the beauty of it.
anyway. would love to hear comments on this, including some answers to the original question.
just choosing the freedom to live without the burden of
actively supporting capitalism by working for a capitalist.
You're not living in freedom, you are still subjected to the rules of capitalism even if you dodge some of them.
Work, for many, isn't a choice. You work, or your kids become classless hobos and end up on the
mindfuqing addictions. So, for one who chose for the larger portion of his free life to be totally out of
sync with that idea and opt out of society I came to a realization that I should have the right to do that
and take on voluntary paid odd jobs for people.
What did you do while you were 'opted out'?
How did you survive, I find it hard to believe that you weren't still in the system. Although you might not have been contributing you almost certainly used it to some sense. Human beings need to work together to survive, we are social beings and an element of solidarity is pretty much natural, capitalism tries to both use this against us (ie blackmailing nurses to take low wages) and to destroy it (setting us in competition against each other, using us against us)
Though to do this I'd need training from someone who
knows a trade, and for that I'd need college or an apprenticeship, which again forces me into a lifestyle.
and to someone who was living in mental freedom - being forced into a lifestyle
could be easily compared to prison. So it was like
searching for a nice enough prison to learn a trade in. I felt extremely annoyed and wondered why I didn't
see men and women of the trades out my window, and why I couldn't just walk up to one and ask to watch
and learn, then learn and do.
Firstly many trades are not as simple as watching and doing, they require a certain amount of knowledge and skills and not everyone who can do something can teach it. In a world where people are set against each other of course people aren't going to help you for nothing, especially if you're a stranger.
Then I learnt that the reason I don't see that, and can't do it is because of the government
and taxes and because of their assassination on all things truly human (imo). If you ask a builder "can I come in
and watch?" you get "no, health and safety, i'd get fired." and replying with "but it's my health and safety so surely
that's up to me" would be a feeble strike at the invisible wall.The same would go for anything else.
Expecting people to be trained before you let them do a job and wanting a site to be safe are not necessarily bad things.
So here I am, tradeless and jobless waiting to try and get a job in a vegan soap shop so I can help
the family I am moving in with. I can't wait for this set of bars, they smell like blackcurrent handmade
vegan soap and 7am mornings and talking about work with other people who do work. The artistry of
the underclass is immense, if only those who like me ventured to want to live in a more human, artistic way
of simply taking opportunities as they arrise with no horrible add ons. I'd love the idea of work if it wasn't
forced on me. Just like anything, the fact that it's being forced onto you spoils the beauty of it.
A vegan soap shop will be run by the bourgeois unless it's a co-op. Either way it's not outside of capitalism and it's certainly not underclass.
Capitalism is about forcing us to work and about taking the pleasure of creation and turning it into production. We'll still be making things after a revolution. Whether we avoid directly participating in capitalism or not we're still involved in it. In the same way as working in health or education (like many anarchists) removes you from the day to day making of profits but doesn't take you out of the system. We do what we can live with to get what we need to live.
Why did you choose to come to Dublin and Edinburgh out of interest?
Hi anonation
"I was wondering what an anarchist view on the underclass is, should they have equal rights as workers...am I stealing from workers"
If the question is about the ethics of theft and exploitation, then I don't think anyone would accuse you of stealing from workers, since 1) the whole idea of everyone desperately needing as much wealth as possible is false, we have plenty of resources but distribute them bizarrely, and 2) you have as much right to the accumulated wealth of past generations as anyone now alive, so taking money off the government is really like them paying you compensation for forcibly excluding you from the private property.
But that said, I don't think many class-struggle anarchists put much emphasis on that kind of 'ethical' way of looking at things - the point of the attack on exploitation is not so much to show that capitalists are individually bad, as to show that their interests are systematically opposed to those of workers, and that society as it now exists systematically satisfies their interests and frustrates those of others.
So on that perspective, as I understand it, the focus on the working class is not because they're morally in the right or because they are so oppressed, it's because they are (supposedly) the group which will overthrow capitalism.
The underclass, on traditional accounts, isn't because 1) since they don't make a crucial contribution, they don't have the potential power of the working class - the unemployed can't go on strike, and 2) it's been suggested that their lifestyle breeds cynical individualism and that they are likely, when the chips are down, to side with the counter-revolution rather than the revolution.
Now both of those are open to question, 2. especially. But even if they're true, it wouldn't imply any sort of hostility to 'the underclass', simply a belief that the most important component of revolutionary change lies elsewhere.
Hope that helps
I'm not convinced that there really is an 'underclass', at least not in terms of constituting a distinct social class, though the term can perhaps be used to identify one or more groupings or class fractions of destitute (semi)workers. But the term tends to be used rather too loosely to be all that useful. For the most part the 'underclass' is made up of unemployed workers, and those who are in various forms of short-term, casual, and precarious work. Some may well give up on formal employment, engaging instead in various forms of petty trading or commodity production, informal labour, illegal or semi-legal commercial activities, begging, or subsisting on the dole (to the extent that the vestiges of the welfare state in some countries makes that possible).
Some people in this position may adopt a 'petit-bourgeois' consciousness, as they attempt to subsist at an individual or household level by extracting scraps of wealth from the working class through various means. But they often move in and out of wage labour, and their other income sources are often temporary or supplementary in nature. Most of the sociological studies I've looked at on this issue also suggest that members of the 'underclass' tend to retain a working class consciousness, in terms of their backgrounds, aspirations, social outlook, and self-identification. (This is also true to some extent of the urban poor in the postcolonial world, where 'underclass' communities rely on the re-circulation of income derived from wage labour).
I agree with Alderson Warm-Fork that this isn't really an ethical or 'moral' issue. Politically, we shouldn't encourage the stigmatisation of those members of the class who have been less successful in selling their labour power. Although some hostility to those who engage in the more predatory 'underclass' activities is to be expected, at a political level most of this hostility is better directed at the 'underworld capitalists' who are actually turning a profit. (Still, stealing consumer goods from workers? Selling recreational pharmaceuticals of dubious and dangerous quality? Fraud, extortion, pimping, etc? Definitely predatory, and frankly deserving of hostility at an individual level. Living on the dole, busking, selling stuff at a street or market stall, doing some shoplifting or whatever in order to get by? Fair enough).
However, doing 'odd jobs' for cash does not make you a free agent, it makes you a casual, poorly-employed worker with little ability to struggle collectively. Why do you think so many jobs in many different industries have now been turned into positions for 'independent contractors'? It is clear that this is a mechanism for increasing exploitation and fragmenting resistance, as well as inculcating a neoliberal 'entrepreneurial' consciousness among workers. 'Underclass' forms of labour are often simply more precarious and stigmatised forms of this. Giving it a counter-cultural/anarchist gloss doesn't really change that at all. While you may not be directly producing value for capital, you are almost certainly contributing by playing a role in the circulation, realisation or reproduction of value.
Also, anonation, if you are working without proper skills or training you may be jeopardising the safety of other workers and/or the end consumer, and quite possibly helping to undermine some hard-fought improvements in working conditions. In terms of your personal position, I'd say it is probably best to go for that vegan soap job because living on the dole long-term really sucks (at least in Australia, but I imagine it is similar in Ireland and Scotland). You might want to join a union, though, and look hard at the wages and conditions on offer, because those kind of 'hippy' jobs often rely on the assumed cultural/political commitments of their employees to increase their exploitation. Also, in the case of very small businesses, the owners will often use their close personal relationships with their employees to exploit them even more. This is not necessarily because they are bad people - many are sincere in their 'we are all family/friends here' rhetoric - but because that is what their precarious economic position impels them to do.
In many ways it can actually be better to work for a large corporation – they tend to impinge less directly on your own affective and emotional life, and despite being rather alienating the various layers of management between workers and owners can give you more room to breathe (avoid work, evade surveillance, express your complaints to your fellow workers, maintain a cynical distance from work goals and corporate 'philosophy', appropriate supplies, form social attachments that exclude the boss, etc).
It is important not to romanticise the underclass as somehow being more radical due to being outside of capitalism – they aren't, really, in any substantial way. The existence of an 'underclass' is more a symptom of capitalist exploitation and alienation than it is a challenge to them. The limited extent to which you as an individual manage to distance yourself from alienated labour will also tend to intensify your alienation from society as a whole. This may or may not be a good thing for you personally - after all, our current society is inherently alienating and antagonistic in nature. But this is basically a personal lifestyle choice, not a political strategy. At a social-political level, greater distance from the social antagonism at the heart of capitalism reduces the power of a social group to struggle through and against that antagonism.
I'd argue that the 'underclass' can play an important political role if they are organised as part of the working class, as in unemployed workers' movements or in battles over social services, housing rights, etc. This can also help break down some of the divisions of relative privilege that undermine class action. Just as the objective of working class struggle should be to overcome the very existence of the 'working class' as such, so should struggles around the 'underclass' be directed against the very existence of an 'underclass' as a distinct, stigmatised and marginalised sector of the working class.
Some interesting responses, but I think more needs to be said. I wouldn't say that the 'underclass' is a 'class' in the way that capitalists are a class. I would say that the underclass is part of the proletariat, in that it is dispossessed and it has the freedom of bourgeois society to sell its labor to anyone who'll buy (even if no one actually will, or if they decide not to).
As proletarians, these individuals are revolutionary. Sure, the unemployed can't go on strike. On the other hand, solidarity between the unemployed and employed sections of the proletariat can make strikes many times more effective than they would be otherwise: if the boss can get a bunch of scabs in to do the jobs of the strikers, the strike isn't much of a problem. If he can't get anyone else to agree to take the places of the strikers, the strike is a really serious problem. So you see that the 'underclass' does have revolutionary potential.
I would add that parts of the 'underclass' if that term embraces, say, drug dealers and pimps, are not proletarian at all - pimps have a significant commodity to sell other than their labor power (someone else's sex), and drug dealers are mercantile capitalists. These sections of the underclass, as they are bourgeois or semi bourgeois in a materialist (as opposed to a sociological) sense are unlikely to play a positive role in the revolution.
am I stealing from workers or just choosing the freedom to live without the burden of actively supporting capitalism by working for a capitalist.
Read this far, took issue. People who work don't do so to actively support anything. Prisoners don't actively support their prisons. People work because the alternative is having an extremely low quality of life on social welfare.
the idea that the underclass is an actual class is derived from "social exclusion" and third way communitarianism theories. In fact I remember Tony Blair talking about the underclass and the "the forgotten people" back when he was still the starry-eyed Labour messiah. If you go back earlier in time, there was definitely a precedent for the underclass in the late 19th century when many proto-social investigators talked about a "social residuum" and the "undeserving poor."
Of course you could relate the underclass to Marx's lumpenproletariat (despite the fact that the underclass generally includes employable workers and Marx distinguished between these and the lumpens), or the concept of a of a "reserve labour army," although they aren't necessarily synonymous, given that the underclass also exists as a popular version of the concept advanced by liberal ideologues, a version which has been internalised by ordinary working-class people as the converse of "respectable."
I came to edinburgh for family, to dublin for my girlfriend. and yea, I'm 21 so I'm fresh out of being a teenager in a sense, so I still have some of that angst that hasn't yet been varnished with knowledge. You know something is wrong, because you literally can't make it into a shop without feeling depressed or anxious, adverts make you feel sick, macdonalds makes you malt in annoyance and so on. Working in health or education sounds really good, because the responsability for you to actually come in is for people who genuinely need you.
I don't think I was out of the system in the sense of I was completely out of the countries grasp. I just ment I was out of a sub-system really, one that I was raised to serve.
Expecting people to be trained is good, I'd not want some guy building a bridge over a river claiming that he'd just seen other people do it. In reality though if you're a kid and someone's building a shed or something and you've just wondered into their garden and they're nice and happy - you can say "how do you do that?" and you get shown how to hammer a nail in, I assume we all know how to hammer nails in just from observing. and how to slot wood together, and how to put a roof in. I'm now 21 and could probably build a shed. So, if it was in the interest of the builder to have other builders to help him in the community, he'd be pretty happy to find someone else who wants to learn how to do it so he has more energy to concentrate on other things. But it doesn't work like that today.
most of what I said in that last post was based on the way I feel, rather than the way it is.
I don't sell drugs or sex, I have the option to sell art and theological knowledge - but I don't. Thinking about actually selling them though if I make enough and work out numbers.
At the same time, we're soaking up taxes and usually buying from small local businesses and things form our neighbors. In a sense taking it out of the bullies pockets and lining our fellow underclasser's pockets. I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of luton town's 'exodus collective'. If not I'm sure they'd be inspirational to many anarchists here, they can be found on youtube.
I have the option to sell...theological knowledge - but I don't
What does this mean? Also what part of Dublin are you based in, you can build me a shed.
Lol, I'm a bit too busy to build you a shed right now. It was just hypothetical anyway. Theological knowledge, like spiritual advice, life help things. You might have seen the books by Osho and Deepak Chopra. I could write books like that, and sell education in religions and mythology. Most of us have stuff we could sell in a less oppressive state.
you can build me a shed.





I dont think anyone here is going to call you a scrounger or anything like that for being on the dole....at least I hope not, this is Libcom, not The Sun.
However, I get the impression that youre advancing the idea that youve somehow 'opted out' of capitalism by not working, which is a bit of a myth, and an idea most posters on here would take issue with.