White privilege

65 posts / 0 new
Last post
Pyotr Tchaikovsky
Offline
Joined: 20-11-09
Nov 22 2011 06:42
White privilege

Comrades,

Been a while since I posted here. Tim Wise talks about this a lot. Do you believe there's such a thing? If so, who is responsible? I, as a person of color, believe that this concept is simply an excuse for people of color to whine instead of making changes in their society. It's about blaming other people for our misfortune.

Thanks,
Pyotr

JoeMaguire's picture
JoeMaguire
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
Nov 22 2011 20:32

I hate to begin by answering a question with a question, but, is 'white privilege' - just white people discussing their privilege? If so, do you think this is progressive?

wiki wrote:
Timothy Jacob Wise (born October 4, 1968) is an American anti-racist activist and writer.[2] Since 1995 he has lectured at over 600[3] college campuses across the US. He has trained teachers, corporate employees, non-profit organizations and law enforcement officers in methods for addressing and dismantling racism in their institutions.[4]

So he's an American, and in one of the video's I watched he acknowledges that one of the central tennants of the states was racial identity, which was used to embroil poor whites support of rich whites and this continues today with nonsense about the border

I live in the UK and I think importing whole-heartedly this theory in a society where lynchings, ethnic cleansing and involuntary migration are not part of our collective conciousness would be pretty silly. There aren't major language barriers (were an island) and migrants and those descended from them have as far as can, chosen to be here. And in some parts of the UK its clearly safer being black/minority ethnic, than being catholic. Though racism clearly is on the increase in places like Scotland.

I think there is something to deconstruct about being white and looking at other identities, and seeing what practical things this can bring to fighting oppression, but I don't get the impression this is necessarily the whole agenda of 'white privilege'. It has insideous liberal overtones for my liking.

I kind of broke my promise, and think I should read this, before I go any further.

Arbeiten's picture
Arbeiten
Offline
Joined: 28-01-11
Nov 22 2011 20:37
JoeMaguire wrote:
I hate to begin by answering a question with a question, but, is 'white privilege' - just white people discussing their privilege? If so, do you think this is progressive?

Thats a bingo! I read something similar on an essay on 'whiteness' really. About how 'whiteness studies' has become a sort of 'me too-ism' for certain white anti-racism intellectuals. It is an important question.

ultraviolet's picture
ultraviolet
Offline
Joined: 14-04-11
Nov 25 2011 23:48

There should be no doubt that white people are in general given advantages that people of color aren't.

Yes, most white people are working class, and yes, people of color can be ruling class. But statistics show that even when you compare working class whites to working class people of color, whites are better off financially, they are treated easier by the cops and the courts, they have lower rates of unemployment, etc. etc.

And even ruling class people of color, although they are exploiters and oppressors the same as white ruling class people, are still harmed by racism, although certain harms are much less pronounced than they will be for working class people of color. (On the other hand, other harms are not any less severe. The intergenerational trauma of genocide and residential school effects all Native-Canadians. The media exaltation of white beauty standards is not class specific either in the shame it causes -- think of Michael Jackson. Pseudo-science which proclaims that people of African ancestry are intellectually inferior is traumatic and can cause a self-fulfilling prophecy due to internalizing belief of this racist lie.)

The paradox is that although ruling class people of color are harmed by racism, they also benefit from it because racism helps divide the working class and thus helps perpetuate capitalism, the very system which they are living high off of.
The other side of this paradox is that although racism gives white people benefits relative to people of color, the key thing here is that the benefit is only RELATIVE. But in absolute terms racism makes white people worse off because it is a giant obstacle to revolution.

Oread's picture
Oread
Offline
Joined: 21-07-10
Nov 27 2011 02:14

I most definitely think it exists, and now that I am aware of it I notice my white privilege more and more.
I think that claiming underrepresented groups should just "make changes" is a very individualistic attitude, ignoring the huge influence our patriarchal, white supremacist society has. People of color (women, etc) are living in a system designed to oppress them - it has nothing to do with "misfortune".

Reading about internalized oppression and kyriarchy has been very educational for me, as well as White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack and Stop Denying White Female Privilege

welshboy's picture
welshboy
Offline
Joined: 11-05-06
Nov 27 2011 08:54

I agree with JoeMaguire here. I can the concept of white privilege being useful in analysing racism and social issues in the US what with it's very recent past of segregation and a social system that was built on the economic back of slavery. I don't however think that this can be transplanted to Europe due to the very different manner in which social structures were formed over time.
Institutional racism in this country is a reflection of social attitudes rather than due to the structure being rooted in slavery.

JoeMaguire's picture
JoeMaguire
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
Nov 29 2011 01:57

I want to understand the following;
What kind of political practice emanates from people who undertake this kind of thinking? (Name group, journals, thinkers etc.)
Why is it a stationary reflection or does it feed into ongoing struggles? If so how...?
Can we de-code actions/events and analyse these kind of dynamics from the past and present?
Why are black/ME not part of this awareness process?

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Nov 30 2011 23:28

White privilege is a load of shit.

I downloaded an "Anarchist" podcast on white privilege and it was basically a white woman clearly of upper middle class origin saying how black people are npt given access to their culture through not being able to buy black cultural food from supermarkets and have their culture treated as the dominant culture.

This strikes me as ridiculous, whould an asian guy be oppressed if he lived in an African nation that did not sell asian food or have asian culture there? Is this Black privilege?

She said a black man is far less likely to be able to go shopping or to the movies without being harrassed, on this I have no idea of the rates on this issue.

She says that white people can choose where they want to buy a house, go to school and can get credit/ not be suspected of being untrustworthy for a loan or work. This is insane, can working class white men choose where to buy a home get great credit, get their kids in any school they want?

Most people who talk about white privilege are born into a upper middle class existence and have some white guilt complex, which seems to be a way of saying all these other white people are oppressors too so this makes my class position and economic privilege ok.

Racism is a shit and big problem in society, infact a girl I know got called a shitskin when she was shopping last week, I also had a friend at school who could not go one day without being called a paki, this however does not mean whites have some sort of privilege, it means some people suffer from an age old reactionary view held by some white people which is oppressive and fucked up.

This does not mean all men who are white prosper from other peoples suffering.Out of all my friends and family, I have non white friends who are earning more, living in better houses and have a far higher level of education, this whole white privelege thing seems to stereotype black/minorities as all victims and helpless basketcases, I think Ian bones words would apply to non white people who would not want liberals bleating on about them as victims.

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Nov 30 2011 23:43
ultraviolet wrote:
There should be no doubt that white people are in general given advantages that people of color aren't.

Yes, most white people are working class, and yes, people of color can be ruling class. But statistics show that even when you compare working class whites to working class people of color, whites are better off financially, they are treated easier by the cops and the courts, they have lower rates of unemployment, etc. etc.

And even ruling class people of color, although they are exploiters and oppressors the same as white ruling class people, are still harmed by racism, although certain harms are much less pronounced than they will be for working class people of color. (On the other hand, other harms are not any less severe. The intergenerational trauma of genocide and residential school effects all Native-Canadians. The media exaltation of white beauty standards is not class specific either in the shame it causes -- think of Michael Jackson. Pseudo-science which proclaims that people of African ancestry are intellectually inferior is traumatic and can cause a self-fulfilling prophecy due to internalizing belief of this racist lie.)

The paradox is that although ruling class people of color are harmed by racism, they also benefit from it because racism helps divide the working class and thus helps perpetuate capitalism, the very system which they are living high off of.
The other side of this paradox is that although racism gives white people benefits relative to people of color, the key thing here is that the benefit is only RELATIVE. But in absolute terms racism makes white people worse off because it is a giant obstacle to revolution.

Actually race seems to have very little to do with opportunities, class is the main block to a good life with all bar 1 percent of the population having fuck all.

A black man is president of the USA, He is not from a working class background.

Is white privilege a real thing?
or is it class/economic privilege that dictates our lot in life?

However I might add, PM major was from a working class family, if you are on the side of the rich you can climb the social ladder rather far nowadays regardless of race, sex or class, if your lucky.

RedEd's picture
RedEd
Offline
Joined: 27-11-10
Dec 1 2011 00:01

Major's dad was a small business owner, just like Thatcher's. Not that he was well off, but not working class in the sense usually used on these forums. Major did spend a few years as a standard income wage worker before doing a correspondence course in banking and getting a job and successive promotions in that sector.

edit: but your point stands. As long as you are not too lumpen the elite will accept you into the political class despite coming from a non-rich background so long as you serve their interests.

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Dec 1 2011 00:09
RedEd wrote:
Major's dad was a small business owner, just like Thatcher's. Not that he was well off, but not working class in the sense usually used on these forums. Major did spend a few years as a standard income wage worker before doing a correspondence course in banking and getting a job and successive promotions in that sector.

edit: but your point stands. As long as you are not too lumpen the elite will accept you into the political class despite coming from a non-rich background so long as you serve their interests.

On a BBC doc it said he grew up on a Bristol council estate in flat with a crack house above them

RedEd's picture
RedEd
Offline
Joined: 27-11-10
Dec 1 2011 00:18

I doubt there was a crack house above since he grew up in the 50s and AFAIK crack wasn't invented till the 80s. But he certainly didn't grow up rich. His dad used to work as a music hall performer and when major was growing up owned a gardening store, where major worked for a little while.

tastybrain
Offline
Joined: 11-11-07
Dec 1 2011 01:10

I will give you an example of white privilege in action. An acquaintance of mine who goes to my school (yes I know you don't like students, but bear with me), who is black told me that while sitting in the library studying, he was approached by a security guard who demanded he show his ID (this might have happened more than once, I forget). He subsequently asked several of his black friends if the same thing had ever happened to them. Almost all of them reported it had. On the other hand, I have never once even been looked at funny by a security guard in the library, and I have never heard of it happening to anyone except people who aren't white. As far as I know, this guy is the same class as I am. Certainly there's no way the security guard would have been targeting him because of class, as nothing about his appearance or demeanor suggests he is lumpen or anything.

Also, this varies by region. Maybe it's different where you're from. In America, from what I can tell, working class/lumpen whites have certain advantages over working class/lumpen blacks or other minorities. They are less likely to be harassed by the police. They are FAR less likely to be unemployed. Infant mortality is higher in the black community, life expectancy is lower, obviously the incarceration rate is way, way higher. If you don't attribute this to racial discrimination and corresponding white privilege, what would you attribute it to?

Another point; talking about "white privilege" doesn't mean one thinks that ALL whites are privileged IN GENERAL. A working class white man might have a terrible life and be incredibly oppressed and exploited. Nonetheless, at least where I'm from, he's far less likely to be harassed by the police simply for walking or driving down the street. Similarly, he does not have to worry about people demeaning him as a sex object like women often do. If he is straight, he has the "privilege" of being able to publicly be in a relationship with someone without fear of harassment. So even a wealthy gay man, in that aspect of his life, not in his entire life, has less privilege than the working class straight man.

Again, none of this is to suggest that ALL whites or white men enjoy an overall status of power and prestige and ALL people of color are overall oppressed. Obviously there's Oprah and Obama, and there's Bob, the white man who cleans the toilets. Its not hard to see who has more power overall comparing those three. Nonetheless, being white (in many places) conveys some privilege in some aspect of your life, even if the rest of your life is shit.

jesuithitsquad's picture
jesuithitsquad
Offline
Joined: 11-10-08
Dec 1 2011 01:47
RedEd wrote:
I doubt there was a crack house above since he grew up in the 50s and AFAIK crack wasn't invented till the 80s. But he certainly didn't grow up rich. His dad used to work as a music hall performer and when major was growing up owned a gardening store, where major worked for a little while.

I was going to say the same thing.

Tastybrain-I agree with what you said, but my problem with "white privilege" isn't the concept--it's the actual phrase. Because one is white and doesn't suffer the above indignities doesn't make them privileged, just not quite as fucked as your average working class or poor minority.

futility index
Offline
Joined: 4-08-07
Dec 1 2011 01:43

Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

From the article in Oread's post. White guilt. Not being a victim of racism doesn't make you an oppressor, or confer any kind of privilege. It just means you haven't been a victim of that particular type of discrimination.

allabouttactics
Offline
Joined: 26-07-11
Dec 1 2011 04:10

One thing that pretty much always gets left out of this discussion is that people from Indian and Chinese descent in England and America tend to do better than white people in terms of school, life expectancy and loads of other 'quality of life' things.

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Dec 1 2011 11:23

Come to think of it I have notices alot of ingrained racism just being around people but I think this is different to American racism, racism here in the UK seems to be anti asian/muslim/polish and based on the fact many of our parents like mine who worked at colgate until they shut it down and moved it to poland, or their dads have been put out of work by an asian or polish or their parents feel threatened or have been brainwashed and passed it on through generations, so maybe white privilege does exist but the term is shit and needs to be changed, maybe to non white underprivilege.

But yeah I mean i think most of us have some ignorant views for example I have a black family member who says he hates "pakis" which is fucking surreal.

My brother claims to hate racists but will say how asians act like scum on ede and start fights where he works etc. When i say how many white people start fights he just start going no its dem at ede lol.

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Dec 1 2011 11:12

only good video on white privilege ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAnV-r4neo&feature=related

tastybrain
Offline
Joined: 11-11-07
Dec 1 2011 11:48
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
Come to think of it I have notices alot of ingrained racism just being around people but I think this is different to American racism, racism here in the UK seems to be anti asian/muslim/polish and based on the fact many of our parents like mine who worked at colgate until they shut it down and moved it to poland, or their dads have been put out of work by an asian or polish or their parents feel threatened or have been brainwashed and passed it on through generations, so maybe white privilege does exist but the term is shit and needs to be changed, maybe to non white underprivilege.

But yeah I mean i think most of us have some ignorant views for example I have a black family member who says he hates "pakis" which is fucking surreal.

My brother claims to hate racists but will say how asians act like scum on ede and start fights where he works etc. When i say how many white people start fights he just start going no its dem at ede lol.

Well I agree that the term is not the best, as it seems to imply that all white people are "privileged" overall, and of course racism and ignorance is not solely confined to white people. I think you do have to consider things like this or as I mentioned before higher rates of infant mortality among black people in America compared to whites, and that even if you are a poor-as-fuck, exploited-as-fuck white person you are statistically less likely to have to deal with police harassment and other kinds of shit. I don't claim to know a lot about statistics though. I think to really get an accurate picture you would have to compare poor whites and poor people of color instead of just taking stats from the population overall, as there is more poverty among blacks in the US so some of the effects put down to race could actually be more of a combination of race and class...but then again one could argue that even if these sorts of discrepancies were due to higher rates of poverty in black communities that is still a racial thing in and of itself (that these communities have more poverty). I also think you're right that there are very important differences in U.S. and U.K. racism.

batswill
Offline
Joined: 8-07-11
Dec 1 2011 14:50
Pyotr Tchaikovsky wrote:
Comrades,

Been a while since I posted here. Tim Wise talks about this a lot. Do you believe there's such a thing? If so, who is responsible? I, as a person of color, believe that this concept is simply an excuse for people of color to whine instead of making changes in their society. It's about blaming other people for our misfortune.

Thanks,
Pyotr

I think, as a systemic social mechanism, that white privilege goes back to the Christian Enlightenment era, and has continued on to the present day, as an arrogant neo-colonialist consciousness, with all its inequalities derived from its patriarchal foundations. Its cousin, gender privilege is also in the same boat. Maybe you are confusing whining with cries of despair, or with exasperation directed at the ignorance of those who have not grasped the essential nature of equality?
Look deeply at the non-white world and evaluate fortune from a level keel.

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Dec 1 2011 18:29
tastybrain wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
Come to think of it I have notices alot of ingrained racism just being around people but I think this is different to American racism, racism here in the UK seems to be anti asian/muslim/polish and based on the fact many of our parents like mine who worked at colgate until they shut it down and moved it to poland, or their dads have been put out of work by an asian or polish or their parents feel threatened or have been brainwashed and passed it on through generations, so maybe white privilege does exist but the term is shit and needs to be changed, maybe to non white underprivilege.

But yeah I mean i think most of us have some ignorant views for example I have a black family member who says he hates "pakis" which is fucking surreal.

My brother claims to hate racists but will say how asians act like scum on ede and start fights where he works etc. When i say how many white people start fights he just start going no its dem at ede lol.

Well I agree that the term is not the best, as it seems to imply that all white people are "privileged" overall, and of course racism and ignorance is not solely confined to white people. I think you do have to consider things like this or as I mentioned before higher rates of infant mortality among black people in America compared to whites, and that even if you are a poor-as-fuck, exploited-as-fuck white person you are statistically less likely to have to deal with police harassment and other kinds of shit. I don't claim to know a lot about statistics though. I think to really get an accurate picture you would have to compare poor whites and poor people of color instead of just taking stats from the population overall, as there is more poverty among blacks in the US so some of the effects put down to race could actually be more of a combination of race and class...but then again one could argue that even if these sorts of discrepancies were due to higher rates of poverty in black communities that is still a racial thing in and of itself (that these communities have more poverty). I also think you're right that there are very important differences in U.S. and U.K. racism.

Yeah, I think the main difference is in the US racism is based on supremacism where as here its a genuine fear of losing jobs, housing and identity, especially in places which up until a few decades ago were majority white working class but are now predominantly black asian or polish.

I think this is why in the UK people otherwise nice have been economically damaged by immigration, I think this is why alot of these people join the BNP or have racist views,not because they think asians are inerior or whatever but they do not want to lose their job to one etc.
The fact the left will not acknowledge mass immigrations effects on the white working class is in my opinion why the far right gets its views accepted and leads people to steer away from left wing politics and become hostile to immigrants rather than see mass immigrations effects on employment as symptomatic of capitalism and its drive to employ the cheapest wage slave and divide us in the process.

ludd's picture
ludd
Offline
Joined: 4-05-09
Dec 1 2011 21:57

I think "privilege" is actually a pretty good word for this if you keep in mind that privileges are given by power (and can be taken away). The ruling class dominates materially - not because of privilege - so that word does not apply to them - though easier road to that class is a privilege given to certain groups. As far as I see it, ultimately it is in no one's interest to be "privileged" because it implies subordination, being bought off and only seeing your own society from mystified point of view. I think it's pretty harmful when politicos talk about privilege without pointing out that it can only end with destruction of hierarchical society. That leads to all kinds of shitty politics.

Also, that not being repeatedly told that you are ugly or stupid or being threatened bureaucratic and individual violence because of your skin color or gender is considered a privilege is a good reflection of how shitty this society is. That's how much the dominant power gives to those workers it wants on their side: "life is good, because we won't abuse you." I really hate political thinking that tells these not-as-oppressed workers that they have it good and should even guilty about that or give up their unfair advantage somehow. Of course they have unfair advantage in capitalist competition and the ideology that everyone has a fair chance does keep the system going, but more often than not i see critiques of white privilege go along with almost natural acceptance of the system of competition that makes these privileges possible.

jesuithitsquad's picture
jesuithitsquad
Offline
Joined: 11-10-08
Dec 1 2011 22:11

Yeah, but by talking about privilege, it occurs to me we're actually just talking about racism, plain and simple. Calling it something like privilege, it seems to me, could actually downplay how vicious racism actually is. Besides, none of the things I've ever seen listed as privilege are actually privileges. They should be the most basic of all human rights (for lack of a better phrase; I'm aware of the problems with "rights".). Additionally, as the things generally listed as being privilege are things "privileged" people can do nothing about (should I start turning myself in for unreasonable search and seizure? refuse the house/job?), it only serves as white guilt for some and furthers alienation for others.

The problem is, generally, the only people who complain about the concept tend to be racists themselves, making your average anti-racist person suspicious when the topic is raised.

I certainly don't have fully-formed opinions on this and I'm kind of thinking 'out loud' here, so I'm open to being corrected.

tastybrain
Offline
Joined: 11-11-07
Dec 1 2011 22:36

"Racism" reduces the problem to individual attitudes and prejudices when in fact it is a structural problem that permeates much of society. You can be the most anti-racist, awesome white person who ever existed and you will still benefit from some form of "privilege" in many places. Even if no one in a particular scenario is actually "racist" there can still be dynamics of "privilege" occuring. If I am applying for some sort of job that requires a lot of specialized education, for example, I have the privilege of having a better education from the get-go and am therefore more likely to get the specialized training necessary (education is another area where blacks in the US are systematically fucked). Even if the person who is interviewing candidates is totally and completely "color-blind" privilege has still shaped and framed this event, because the candidates who walk through the door will be more likely to be white because whites have access to better education.

Hopes that makes some sense.

Juan Conatz's picture
Juan Conatz
Offline
Joined: 29-04-08
Dec 1 2011 23:27

I'm not from Europe and the closest I've been to Europe is probably Detroit, so I can't really comment on what it's like there. I think to know, you would have to have worked there, lived there, had friends, be immersed in the culture, etc. Also, I would suspect that race differs from region to region. I would assume race and ethnicity in Albania is different from the UK, which is different from Germany, which is different from Italy, etc.

However, for the U.S., which I know the most about, it is very relevant. Let me just personalize the story a bit.

My mom moved to the south from Puerto Rico when she was 17-18 years old. One of her first experiences was trying to get a job and being interviewed for a secretary job. She was hired and when she came in, they put her on the assembly line. She tried to say she had been hired for the secretary job, but they weren't having it. She spent the day on the assembly line in high heels and a business casual dress.

When she met my dad at a small college, they weren't allowed to date without parental permission because they were different races. They ended up just ignoring this, but this rule existed in some colleges until the 90s.

When my parents got married, they moved to Baltimore. Into a working class neighborhood that had been segregated only 3-4 years before. Until a few black families started moving in and whose houses were subsequently firebombed.

And of course there's the other stuff already mentioned like higher rates of unemployment, drug abuse, incarceration, homelessness, poverty, infant mortality, lack of health care, etc etc.

There's a whole culture of marginalization and racism that pervades everyday American life. If you don't see how this could and can develop you as a human being, how it can determine what struggle will look like or even if it happens,
I'm not sure what to tell you. There is a past, present and future that is pretty much only experienced by certain parts of the population, and not by others.

jesuithitsquad's picture
jesuithitsquad
Offline
Joined: 11-10-08
Dec 2 2011 00:02

tastybrain- I had actually intended to write "structural racism," but forgot, so I would agree with what you've written except this:

Quote:
Even if the person who is interviewing candidates is totally and completely "color-blind" privilege has still shaped and framed this event

where isn't it structural racism, not privilege shaping this?

Juan Conatz wrote:
There's a whole culture of marginalization and racism that pervades everyday American life. If you don't see how this could and can develop you as a human being, how it can determine what struggle will look like or even if it happens, I'm not sure what to tell you. There is a past, present and future that is pretty much only experienced by certain parts of the population, and not by others.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but of course I would agree with this. To me, like I said above, this is what I think of as structural racism. Am I off-base?

I have several friends who are victimized on at least a weekly basis for "driving while black," and those experiences are nearly always just a prelude for further indignities like brutalization (my friend the other day was beaten by the cops while handcuffed and sitting on the ground). I guess my question about privilege is does it really expand our understanding of the above example anymore than an analysis of structural racism does?

allabouttactics
Offline
Joined: 26-07-11
Dec 2 2011 05:39
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
tastybrain wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
Come to think of it I have notices alot of ingrained racism just being around people but I think this is different to American racism, racism here in the UK seems to be anti asian/muslim/polish and based on the fact many of our parents like mine who worked at colgate until they shut it down and moved it to poland, or their dads have been put out of work by an asian or polish or their parents feel threatened or have been brainwashed and passed it on through generations, so maybe white privilege does exist but the term is shit and needs to be changed, maybe to non white underprivilege.

But yeah I mean i think most of us have some ignorant views for example I have a black family member who says he hates "pakis" which is fucking surreal.

My brother claims to hate racists but will say how asians act like scum on ede and start fights where he works etc. When i say how many white people start fights he just start going no its dem at ede lol.

Well I agree that the term is not the best, as it seems to imply that all white people are "privileged" overall, and of course racism and ignorance is not solely confined to white people. I think you do have to consider things like this or as I mentioned before higher rates of infant mortality among black people in America compared to whites, and that even if you are a poor-as-fuck, exploited-as-fuck white person you are statistically less likely to have to deal with police harassment and other kinds of shit. I don't claim to know a lot about statistics though. I think to really get an accurate picture you would have to compare poor whites and poor people of color instead of just taking stats from the population overall, as there is more poverty among blacks in the US so some of the effects put down to race could actually be more of a combination of race and class...but then again one could argue that even if these sorts of discrepancies were due to higher rates of poverty in black communities that is still a racial thing in and of itself (that these communities have more poverty). I also think you're right that there are very important differences in U.S. and U.K. racism.

Yeah, I think the main difference is in the US racism is based on supremacism where as here its a genuine fear of losing jobs, housing and identity, especially in places which up until a few decades ago were majority white working class but are now predominantly black asian or polish.

I think this is why in the UK people otherwise nice have been economically damaged by immigration, I think this is why alot of these people join the BNP or have racist views,not because they think asians are inerior or whatever but they do not want to lose their job to one etc.
The fact the left will not acknowledge mass immigrations effects on the white working class is in my opinion why the far right gets its views accepted and leads people to steer away from left wing politics and become hostile to immigrants rather than see mass immigrations effects on employment as symptomatic of capitalism and its drive to employ the cheapest wage slave and divide us in the process.

I think this is a gross over-simplification

The Americans also have the problem of racism based on jobs/security, I've not been to America but Americans I've known from the south of the country say there is a massive amount of tension between white and hispanic workers.
There is also a lot of good old fashioned prejudice/white supremacism in England and Europe.

Of course the problems are very different due to the different contxts, but I don't think it's possible to make any sort of statement implying that the cause is one thing in England and one thing in the US

Not many people seem to address that as well as left wing parties and activists being marginalised in the past few decades, the same happened to traditional conservatives as well. These rascist/quasi-rascist movements seem to be a reaction to the vacuum created by the hegemony of capitalism in recent times

Mike Harman
Offline
Joined: 7-02-06
Dec 2 2011 06:41
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:

But yeah I mean i think most of us have some ignorant views for example I have a black family member who says he hates "pakis" which is fucking surreal.
.

Not sure why that's surreal? There is plenty of racism between west african/carribean/bangladeshi/pakistani groups in London in various directions.

BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
Offline
Joined: 26-10-11
Dec 2 2011 10:51

I have a serious question about white privilege in the western world. Sorry but couldnt it be said black people or asian people are the minority so as such would obviously not have alot of cultural strength as that white privilege podacts cries about etc, I mean would a white person in the congo, saudi arabia or another mainly non white place suffer the exact same problems a black man would face here, is this not just the fact that people born into a minority somewhere have it hard?

allabouttactics
Offline
Joined: 26-07-11
Dec 2 2011 11:09
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
I have a serious question about white privilege in the western world. Sorry but couldnt it be said black people or asian people are the minority so as such would obviously not have alot of cultural strength as that white privilege podacts cries about etc, I mean would a white person in the congo, saudi arabia or another mainly non white place suffer the exact same problems a black man would face here, is this not just the fact that people born into a minority somewhere have it hard?

Any experience in Saudi Arabia or the Congo would be completely different, if you were Saudi or Congolese your life would be so different in England than Saudi Arabia or the Congo.

I don't think it's worthwhile to try and reverse the situation and imagine a Westerner living in Africa or something, it's so different.

Arbeiten's picture
Arbeiten
Offline
Joined: 28-01-11
Dec 2 2011 12:12
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:

Actually race seems to have very little to do with opportunities

Have you got any statistics to back this up? or is the fact Barrack Obama is in the white house and you have a black mate enough? FFS if you are going to spout this trite, please do it a little better!