Zerzan interview

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corvidae's picture
corvidae
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Apr 25 2009 09:35
Zerzan interview

Don't know if anybody here saw this, but I came across it and was shocked. Even for a primitivist this is pretty low, albeit somewhat consistent with their anti-intellectual, anti-modern worldview. John Zerzan, gave an interview for corrupt.org, which describes itself as a anti-globalization, environmentalist and traditionalist think tank, but in reality is a bastion for third positionist, racist, and anti-semetic fascist thought. I dont know how many people are familiar with the "Traditionalist" school and Julius Evola but it basically uses a mix a mythology, pseudo-science and pseudo-anthropology to support ancestral claims to ethno-national superiority and separation. One quote from the article still strikes me though...

"Corrupt is always interested in finding allies from the green anarchy movement, because we have a lot in common"

Here is the interview:

http://www. corrupt.org/news/interview_anarcho-primitivist_thinker_and_activist_john_zerzan

Dose this mean that Antifa can now start disrupting Zerzans talk's?

Admin: link broken. Please don't post links to fascist websites

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
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Apr 25 2009 10:40

I'm not a big fan of his but it seems like they sent him a bunch of questions by email and he answered, doesn't necessarily mean he's flirting with fascism. Personally I try to check the backgrounds of the people I talk to, but not everyone is that cautious. Have you sent him the link/explanation?

Eastern Barbarian
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Apr 25 2009 10:51

exactly, check with the geezer first before accusing, especially since this corrup page is definitely nothing obvious, I had a breif look at it and found only one slightly dodgy thing there so far so its definitely well camouflaged.

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quint
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Apr 25 2009 17:24

I love the depth of analysis...

Zerzan writes:

Quote:

"Think of a behavior or attitude that we might call negative. Did it exist before domestication? No is the simple answer."

corvidae's picture
corvidae
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Apr 25 2009 18:06

Yeah, well even if he did not know it was a third-positionist group at the time of the interview, its very obvious now, and as far as I have seen he has not addressed it.

tsi
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Apr 25 2009 18:43

Why am I not surprised?

Even if he's not actually intentionally collaborating with the fash, he could take some responsibility for his own ignorance and demand that the site take the interview down.

star green black "down with teh civilizashun!"

wall

hpwombat
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Apr 25 2009 22:45

Corrupt.org also claims to be a defender of civilization. I don't think it was a political decision to take an interview from them.

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888
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Apr 25 2009 23:15

Are corrupt's politics really any worse than Zerzan's?

tsi
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Apr 26 2009 00:09
888 wrote:
Are corrupt's politics really any worse than Zerzan's?

Good point.

However, this is still a blunder on his part as it might make it that much easier for us to expose his rather deplorable politics for what they are to young and naive anarchists.

Tanis
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May 13 2009 16:43

Zerzan has already admitted to the mistake and denounced corrupt.org. As he said on his radio show last night, he only had a brief look at the website before doing the interview, as as you know their ideology is very well camouflaged. As for depth of analysis, it was a pretty concise interview, so what do you expect? It was probably heavily edited.
You reds are all the same, looking for opportunities like this. Use your head. Zerzan is obviously not collaborating with the fascists. Get real. Even you can do better than this.

Jason Cortez
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May 13 2009 16:57

Its the REDS, they are everywhere, under the beds, in our heads. Better dead than RED. twisted

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Khawaga
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May 13 2009 21:08
Quote:
Zerzan has already admitted to the mistake and denounced corrupt.org. As he said on his radio show last night, he only had a brief look at the website before doing the interview, as as you know their ideology is very well camouflaged.

If you bothered to check the OP is about 3 weeks old. Did he "already" denounce it then, or just at the radio show 3 weeks later?

Quote:
You reds are all the same, looking for opportunities like this. Use your head. Zerzan is obviously not collaborating with the fascists. Get real. Even you can do better than this.

People responded to the OP saying that it was probably a mistake by Zerzan, that he might not have known and that it should be run by him before making any conclusions.

Feighnt
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May 13 2009 21:26
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
You reds are all the same, looking for opportunities like this. Use your head. Zerzan is obviously not collaborating with the fascists. Get real. Even you can do better than this.

People responded to the OP saying that it was probably a mistake by Zerzan, that he might not have known and that it should be run by him before making any conclusions.

dammit Khawaga, you reds are all the same, pointing out when people say things that are clearly wrong. Get real!

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May 14 2009 00:03
Jack wrote:
When you're on your knees, with a gun to your head...

Theyve just re-formed, and are worse than ever sad

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Bubbles
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May 14 2009 00:11

Tanis IRL

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
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May 14 2009 06:06
Quote:
People responded to the OP saying that it was probably a mistake by Zerzan

Yup, second post down, sorry Tanis but I'm one of those dastardly Reds McCarthy warned you about.

x357997, clearly that's been photoshopped. In reality the gun is a big stick, he's not wearing clothes, and he's got a Red tied to the tree.

kervennic
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Oct 4 2011 01:25

Zerzan is one figure of the civilization criticic movement and whatever he says or does implies only himself. This is the true principle of anarchy: no arche, think for yourself.

What is your comment on the ideas supporting this criticism. Why are you scared that he or it will divert young "anarchist" from "mainstream "anarchy"". Is there an established anarchy thinking and goodies and badies ? Should we trash people image like staline did for the good cause, or should we try to talk about their project and ideas ?

What should a "real" anarchist really think about industry ? Should he advocate it as being a liberation ? A "real" anarchist, the one that likes industry an d computer is ready to work in a clean room for 10 hours a day to support the beauty of computing ? Is he ready to go in rare earth factory and mines to support technology and not leave this activity to China and its non existing environemental and social regulation ? Why mining rare earth is a more fullfilling job than cultivating one's land ?

What if global warming would kill 90 percent of human being as is foreseen by some scientist if the tenperature goes over 5 extradegrees at the end of this century, a very likely scenario, the 2 extra degrees being now pure science fiction. Should we advocate technology at any cost, because trying to decomplexify society and work division (using joseph a tainter semantic) is an horrible step backward ?

Can solar energy really sustain industry in the next decades ? Is there enough lithium to keep apace transportation ? Have you studied physics yourself or do you relie on other authoritarian view and prediction to rule your life, though you say you are an anarchist. I can tell you: mots scientist are by no way anarchist. They have been selected because of their obedience to the system and concerning politics their view matches exactly the ones of their employer. Many of them have ties to military industries have the most authoritarian, infeodated political views. This is why they will defend industry as a necessary successfull experiment that will always solve problems of pollution and energy: they just need to eat.

Are we more happy, free and with more understandiung of nature being 9 milliard fed by overexploiting desperately every bit if the ecosystem, using every bit of rocks in such a complex system just for the majority of us to barely survive and work full time, or should we degrow rapidly to have more space, more resource again and use them for better purpose than surviving miserably and frantically, like having more leasure time and resource to investigate and understand nature.

Do you really think we have more and more time to think in an industrialized divised desindividualized industrial world, even if anarchist would manage it. Which is impossible since industrialists will always run their tool. Insudtry creates inequality and power, engineer and workers. Industry is based on the division of work, of knowledge.

Lots of questions and a an amazing silence on the orthodox side.

Fortunately there are more interesting debate if i read former marxist people from germany writing in krisis.
Insutry is a labour camp and its internal logic is to control all resource and all people by means of artificialisation. What was once free has to become processed and payed for. It is not a problem of real interest for individuals, their voice do not count in such a complex system. It is a mythological problem, an article of faith. In the end, we work to build the wall of our jail, and even if the boss were gone, we would continue, because we are not able to imagine something other than a life of prisonners.

There are plenty example of self destruction in nature due to uncontrolled evolutionnary path. There will be one more to learn from quite soon.

yourmum
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Oct 4 2011 11:43

primmos taking capitalist society as given and after that watching around what else they can blame, they dont have a critic of exploitation, prove me wrong... start asking yourself about the social relations we got, exploitation through wage labour, commodity production, before you blame industry for being a labour camp. you dont need any industry for labour camps. on the contrary you need industry to prevent labour camps or the death of 90%, its called productivity.

and the stupidass endtime prophecy blah blah has been around a long time too.. comes with primmos like wearing no shoes when they are young.

888's picture
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Oct 4 2011 18:12
kervennic wrote:
Can solar energy really sustain industry in the next decades ? Is there enough lithium to keep apace transportation ? Have you studied physics yourself or do you relie on other authoritarian view and prediction to rule your life, though you say you are an anarchist. I can tell you: mots scientist are by no way anarchist. They have been selected because of their obedience to the system and concerning politics their view matches exactly the ones of their employer. Many of them have ties to military industries have the most authoritarian, infeodated political views. This is why they will defend industry as a necessary successfull experiment that will always solve problems of pollution and energy: they just need to eat.

Scientists are not politically selected. The political views of scientists at universities are a little left leaning on average, if anything. This used to be the case more, ironically when the most destructive weapons of all were being developed.

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Oct 5 2011 20:34

Of course, there are structural reasons why the insights, inventions, and research of scientists are used toward destructive/profitable ends. But this is about the nature of capitalism, the state, and education/academia under class society---they are forced to be obedient to their employer as much as a shop clerk, auto worker, or munitions worker.

tastybrain
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Oct 5 2011 21:24

Are u guyz rly gonna rely on NON-ANARCHIST SCIENTISTS to do your thinking for you??11?111!?

duskflesh
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Oct 6 2011 07:49

I'am gana be honest, I hardly see to much difference between their views...i would not put it past him to be down with the fascists

they both basicly wanna put most of the worlds population in death camps...both are misanthropic...both relay on yet to be proven by science/unproven claims to justify their beliefs....both are authoritarian...both are bankrupt...both are sloppy ideologies

I actually like how this is tainting zarzan even more

speaking of which, I was reading “population myths” by bookchin the other day. Good stuff

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bookchin/gp/perspectives8.html

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bookchin/gp/perspectives15.html

[sarcasm] yeah man, science and scientific studies are just oppressive narratives to stop us from freeing ourselves from the "machine", we should just run into the forest and kill ourselves...yeah man life suxs, all we need to do is have everyone run to thier deaths and destroy everything so that life becomes all roses and chocolates....and becasue oil is gana run out, you should destroy socioty...yeah man it makes makes perfect sense but you just gana take my word for it...oh wait i;ll just spit out some mystic lines about nature and the "collapse" to distract you from the logic of what i just said

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Entdinglichung
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Oct 6 2011 10:18

did Zerzan co-operate with the "eco-bordigist" journal Exitus from Switzerland which occasionally in footnotes also promoted negationism with references to bastards like Rassinier?

Arbeiten's picture
Arbeiten
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Oct 6 2011 13:12

I just still can't get over a primmo on a radio station. Probably online radio too....

Is there actually any solid proof that Z is a misanthrope though?

satawal
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Oct 10 2011 09:40

Hi Arbeiten,

Good point re Zerzan and misanthrope. There is much in his writing and role to critique, but it’s obviously better to start with his actual positions rather than those attributed to him. Having read much of what he has written (some of which I agree with, some of which I think is delusional) and also having met him in an informal environment (i.e. not in a meeting, debate etc) I don't think there is "actually any solid proof that Z is a misanthrope".

There are plenty of ecological minded anarchists who would be happy to claim such a title (some in Earth First! for example) but Zerzan is not one of them. In person he generally seems to like people and nothing in his books take an anti-human position. If anything I think he shares with some anarchists such as Kropotkin a rather idealistic vision of what 'human nature' is, what it was before class society and what it may be like after class society. His whole position is based on the premise (which one can accept without buying his whole ideological product) that for most of human existence class society was not present and thus it is in some senses an aberration. This enables him to let humans off the hook for the daily reproduction of social relations as it’s not really them but 'civilisation'. He also has hope for some kind of anarchist world transformation brought about by human agency, as opposed to the collapse fetishism of Derrick Jensen.

As far as circumstantial evidence the 80s Fifth Estate magazine set that he was a part of (George Bradford/David Watson, Freddy Perlman etc) were highly critical (in a far more interesting way than Bookchin) of misanthropic tendencies within US Earth First! (See http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/George_Bradford__How_Deep_is_Deep_Ecology_.html ).

Re him having a radio show:

He has had Eugene local weekly radio programme for ten years which is live streamed and sometimes syndicated (http://www.johnzerzan.net/radio/). As far as I know he has probably the most productive internet radio anarchist which as your post points to, has contradictions. These were addressed somewhat in a Fifth Estate discussion in 1999 which is available here: http://www.primitivism.com/open-letter.htm

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Oct 10 2011 14:38

Cheers for that sat. I'm still not keen on the primitivist project but i didn't think Zerzan was misanthropic, just a bit nuts. Jensen on the other hand is a different matter.

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Oct 16 2011 14:11
Quote:
did Zerzan co-operate with the "eco-bordigist" journal Exitus from Switzerland which occasionally in footnotes also promoted negationism with references to bastards like Rassinier?

I don't know about anybody else - but I really want to know about this group if only for Trainspotting reasons

Android
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Oct 17 2011 13:17
grumpy cat wrote:
Quote:
did Zerzan co-operate with the "eco-bordigist" journal Exitus from Switzerland which occasionally in footnotes also promoted negationism with references to bastards like Rassinier?

I don't know about anybody else - but I really want to know about this group if only for Trainspotting reasons

Me too!

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Entdinglichung
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Oct 17 2011 15:43
Android wrote:
grumpy cat wrote:
Quote:
did Zerzan co-operate with the "eco-bordigist" journal Exitus from Switzerland which occasionally in footnotes also promoted negationism with references to bastards like Rassinier?

I don't know about anybody else - but I really want to know about this group if only for Trainspotting reasons

Me too!

have to dig deep in my loft to find it (it was no. 1 or 2), its somewhere from the mid- or late 1990ies, stuff about ecology, extermination of species ... two later issues: https://www.anares-buecher.de/exitus-p-58021.html & https://www.anares-buecher.de/exitus-p-57987.html