Abortion

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Lucas
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Jun 27 2007 03:53
Abortion

It seems like for anyone left of the Republican Party, being pro-choice is a knee jerk reaction. I think the left suffers from a pre-made platform with some issues that don't nessarily follow the Left's basis on valueing human life, I think this article by Carl Estabrook sums it quiet nicely http://www.counterpunch.org/estabrook01172003.html

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thugarchist
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Jun 27 2007 04:02

I was in a room with some low-level dem strategists shortly after kerry lost to bush (they were renting part of my union hall) and they were all a buzz about their bosses planning on moving to a less upfront abortion rights stance for this election. Articles like this are generally planted in the run up to an election to generate conversation and media interest. Its all bullshit.

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MJ
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Jun 27 2007 04:42

Lucas, would you be more willing to work with left wing people if we accepted your opposition to abortion?

alibadani
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Jun 27 2007 04:50

I won't be popular for this but I wouldn't say that full humanity begins at birth, nor at conception.

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MJ
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Jun 27 2007 04:51

obviously not. full humanity begins the first time you go out on strike.

alibadani
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Jun 27 2007 04:55

I guess I'm still an embryo then

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madashell
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Jun 27 2007 06:29

That article is utter, utter shit. Besides reducing left and right to how "authoritarian" or "democratic" you are ("Lenin's Bolsheviks, then, must be seen as a right-wing Marxist party", Jesus Christ), it's a load of abstract bollocks.

I'm pro-choice, not because I like abortion, but because I don't see any reasonable alternative. Would you rather go back to the days of desparate, back-street abortions? Of young, working class women being forced to become parents too early and trapped into poverty? Fuck that.

In any case, I can't help but point out that I'm a little less than shocked that some bloke running for election in America takes exception to the idea that women have a right to control their own bodies on such inane and spurious grounds.

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Khawaga
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Jun 27 2007 06:38
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women have a right to control their own bodies

Only argument for abortions, other arguments are mostly just liberal bollocks.

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thugarchist
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Jun 27 2007 06:41

I generally support post-birth abortions.

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Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 08:53
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the Left's basis on valueing human life

See what I mean? Jesus. It’s like all you lefties think it comes down to a conflict between those who “value” human life and those who don’t. For fucks sake. Compulsory abortions for lefties up to the 30th year of life, it’s the only way forward.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 08:56
revol68 wrote:
It's not really a choice if abortion becomes little more than a means for women to bio police themselves as atomised individuals in order to fit the needs of capitalism.

Basically, I support legal abortion on demand but think this should also be meet with an opening up of wider social choices.

indeed, i've known women who've felt 'forced' to have an abortion by low wages/needing to work full-time etc which is no choice at all. (and consequently can lead to all sorts of emotional issues/guilt etc). it's about womens' control of their bodies, but while their bodies are controlled by the boss 8 or 9 hours a day it's likely to be little more than another consumer solution for the hard-working modern womanTM (which is still better than not even having that consumer solution, of course)

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Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 09:18
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i've known women who've felt 'forced' to have an abortion by low wages/needing to work full-time etc which is no choice at all.

Oh yeah heaven forbid anyone should let paying their way interfere with their god-given right to breed. At the heart of the matter is the taboo associated with the sanctity of the human body - perhaps a little contraception might have been a better way of avoiding the emotional traumas associated with being too poor to afford children. And as for “opening up wider social choices”, it’s starting to sound a bit David Cameron is all I can say.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 09:28

ooh, here comes the cartoon contrarian

Dundee_United
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Jun 27 2007 09:29

Agree with Revol and others. I support abortion up until birth.

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Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 09:39
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ooh, here comes the cartoon contrarian

Ho hum. I only appear contrary when placed amongst the "vulnerable".

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 11:14

me neither, though whatever point is chosen is going to be somewhat arbitrary

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Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 12:05
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saying you support abortion up till birth is rather like saying you support amputation!

I support amputation. Well, I’m not against it, put it that way. I'm for the amputation of some people’s heads just for the sake of entertainment. What intrigues me is Lucas's idea that human life has some objective value beyond the supply of people versus the demand for them.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 12:26
revol68 wrote:
Jack wrote:
As early as possible, as late as necessary is the only acceptable position for a communist.

yes but that's quite a step away from 'supporting abortion up till birth'

indeed. i mean if in the unlikely situation a woman goes into labour and thinks, 'fuck, this is really going to hurt i've changed my mind' and wants to terminate, that's pretty hard to distinguish from infanticide; if you're going to grant a right to life to a newborn, a newborn - n minutes is a virtually indistinguishable being, so you pick an arbitrary point where its 'rights' trump the mothers autonomy. clinging onto birth as a neat objective interstice between life and non-life is the mirror image of catholics saying a zygote is alive; looking to project moral certainty onto indifferent reality.

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Steven.
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Jun 27 2007 12:30
revol68 wrote:
Jack wrote:
FFS Joseph, you don't even have Catholic guilt as an excuse. roll eyes

I mean maybe in a communist society you might not want it right up until birth (maybe, maybe not, I dunno), but there are reasons it happens late - most people who have abortions don't fucking want them late term.

As early as possible, as late as necessary is the only acceptable position for a communist.

yes but that's quite a step away from 'supporting abortion up till birth', i'd imagine most late term abortions happen for rather complex reasons and certainly aren't the ideal.

saying you support abortion up till birth is rather like saying you support amputation!

Jack, supporting abortion last week:

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Steven.
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Jun 27 2007 12:30
John. wrote:
Jack, supporting abortion last week:

Actually no that's clearly Lazlo Woodbine.

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Jun 27 2007 12:43
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I think most people might agree with Lucas on this one

There is something a bit wrong with me, of this there is no doubt. However, as it (if anything) rewards me, it doesn’t really count as an illness. A few friends of mine think there’s some kind of neurological damage behind my take on what are, for most people, straight-forward ethics. I find it difficult to really grasp concepts such as “good” and “evil”.

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I mean if human life has no value then why would supply and demand hold any value itself?

As a gent of your philosophical credentials knows, if there is no God or magic life force, then a human is only valuable because other humans demand their existence. If there’s plenty of people around then people are bound to be less hung up about abortion than if our viability as a procreating species is threatened. A hard-wired bio-emotional response.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 12:56
Lazy Riser wrote:
There is something a bit wrong with me, of this there is no doubt. However, as it (if anything) rewards me, it doesn’t really count as an illness. A few friends of mine think there’s some kind of neurological damage behind my take on what are, for most people, straight-forward ethics.

sociopath in 'pro-market' shocker grin

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Jun 27 2007 13:07
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so your argument doesn't rest on supply and demand per se but rather on the assumption that the procreation of the species is the central driving force and is hardwired into peoples bodies.

Nah. It rests on supply and demand per se, although hats off for introducing a component of what Reich called “libido-economy”. As for the central driving force, well that’s the release of various emotional tensions, which can be through procreation or whatever floats your boat at the time. However, I will concede that the sex drive operates at the lowest level of our brain, to the extent that sexual satisfaction and anxiety are straightforward negations generated by the same neurological source.

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I was about to ask Lazy if he's seen 'The Trap', it was amazing how your guy Nash basically came out and said he modelled individuals for his game theory as ruthlessly rational, self seeking who would always betray the other person and how this might have had something to do with the fact he was suffering paranoid schizophrenia.

When they actually ran experiments along the game theory lines, like the prisoners dilemna, the only groups of people to consistently pick the 'rational' choice was economists and sociopaths.

Good for you. It's not a trap I have any intention avoiding. I am a bit of sociopath, it’s one of the reasons I have trouble with all that “needs and abilities” twaddle. Jesus, I should see my GP. She’s Middle class but quite hot, I can make her stick her finger up my arse and get a free prostate massage.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 13:19
revol68 wrote:
When they actually ran experiments along the game theory lines, like the prisoners dilemna, the only groups of people to consistently pick the 'rational' choice was economists and sociopaths.

yeah there's some great studies using game theory to demolish neoclassical economics. which is nice. cue mental gymnastics to classify giving money away anonymously as 'selfishly satisfying your desire to be unselfish' and self-interest as 'whatever you do' (c) milton friedman

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Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 13:33
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supply and demand are just empty categories

Not so sure about that, but I was raising disjoint points as if they supported each other, so fair play.

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yeah there's some great studies using game theory to demolish neoclassical economics. which is nice

Nice? It's deadly. It demolishes "communist" economics too though, which would have to discard games as exchange relations.

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Khawaga
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Jun 27 2007 13:41
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yeah it is , but on the otherhand being pro choice is all about opening up options and has to mean engaging honest discussion about the ethics abortion and more concretely seeking to overcome barriers that often force women into abortions too, eg lack of support networks, poverty, more and more working hours.

It's not really a choice if abortion becomes little more than a means for women to bio police themselves as atomised individuals in order to fit the needs of capitalism.

Basically, I support legal abortion on demand but think this should also be meet with an opening up of wider social choices.

Agree wholeheartedly (and with Jospeh's posts). While I support abortion as women's right to control their own body, I wouldn't necessarily support abortion per se. In a communist society I hope that abortions would go down due to the fact that raising a child would not be as much of a burden as it is now for quite a lot of working class folks.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 13:45
Lazy Riser wrote:
It demolishes "communist" economics too though, which would have to discard games as exchange relations.

well the studies in question showed people rarely exhibited 'Homo economicus' behaviour, and exhibited, well, pretty communist behaviour.

> person A is given a sum of money (roughly a day's wages)
> they can split it however they like wit person B, but person B can veto meaning nada for both
> 'rationally' person B should accept anything as better than nothing, in fact B overwhelmingly values 'fairness' over cash and is prepared to veto, A either anticipates this or also values 'fairness' and offers a pretty even split

experiments are repeated with anonymity, similar results. study is repeated without the veto, A rarely takes 100% and often roughly 50%. not sure how any of that demolishes the principle of 'from each according to ability, to each according to need,' but nice try.

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Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 13:57

Ha ha. So equal wages is "communist" is it? Better tell Castoriadis. Seriously, whether it's fair or not isn’t the issue there, it’s called a Saddle Point comrade.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 13:59

that's exactly what i said roll eyes

the money could have been anything of value, the study being carried out under capitalism, they chose money as a standard. the only reference to wages was to point out there was a real sum at stake, people weren't divvying up lego bricks.

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Jun 27 2007 14:02

Bless. It’s not as if A is taking into account B’s special “needs” is it.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 14:12

i didn't say it affirmed communism, i said it didn't 'demolish it,' as you claimed, without even knowing what i was talking about, like a good contrarian.