Abortion

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Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 14:25

Jesus, JK, are you sure this “contrarian” stuff isn’t just a little bit pot-calling-kettle-black. By your logic game theory doesn’t “demolish” neo-classical economics, it just fails to affirm it. You're beginning to make me wish I was aborted myself. This thread certainly has been.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 14:35

well, given as a major premise of neoclassical economics is 'Homo economicus,' and given as that's been pretty much falsified, that's a demolition. allowing for rhetorical flourish of course. now, of course neoclassical economics carries on regardless, but you don't abolish capitalism by proving it's stupid.

yoshomon
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Jun 27 2007 14:46

Why do you post this article Lucas? It was written in 2003 by an idiot who ran for congress on the Green Party ticket, and it's awful.

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If the Left continues to draw out the implication of its principles, it will discover the marginalization of the unborn and unwanted as for example it discovered the marginalization of women

Ridiculous.

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 14:58

Come off it JK, “Homo economicus” is as central to materialist communism as it is to neo-classical theory. The question is the strategy to reach a Nash equilibrium, the saddle point. The answer is as far removed from the meaning and content of the species-being as it is from the neo-classical candidate strategy for Homo economicus.

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To be fair there are implications to be drawn around the abortion debate in terms of eugenics, the aborting of deaf, blind and disabled children.

What is the "abortion debate" in the secular sphere? I imagine it as sort of cruelty / justice trip, but as a sociopath I can never be sure what's at stake.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:03

right, communism is about sociopathically disregarding the needs of others. how did i get it so wrong?

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:09

FFS whats up with all this talk over abortion? Let the women decide what she wants, but there shouldnt be any boo hooing over people who say they are 'forced' to have abortions due to work, there are these little things called condoms you know.
As for anti-abortion socialists, they are even more crazy than the normal ones. Although I will stand up and give them much congratulations and respect for taking in all the unwanted babies that wern't aborted, i'm sure all anti-abortionists do that, right?

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 15:09
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right, communism is about sociopathically disregarding the needs of others. how did i get it so wrong?

Maybe you didn't read Capital properly.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:14

Capital's not really about communism. the clue is in the name.

powertotheimagination wrote:
there shouldnt be any boo hooing over people who say they are 'forced' to have abortions due to work, there are these little things called condoms you know.
Wikipedia wrote:
The typical use pregnancy rate among condom users varies depending on the population being studied, ranging from 10–18% per year.[30] The perfect use pregnancy rate of condoms is 2% per year.[1]
powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:17

The typical use pregnancy rate among condom users varies depending on the population being studied, ranging from 10–18% per year.[30] The perfect use pregnancy rate of condoms is 2% per year.[1]

The guys need to get one that fits then. Always smaller than larger.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:18

right because 2% (perfect use) of millions of people = 0

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:20

If it does fair enough then get something else to stop pregnancy. There are other options except for an abortion.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:21

Nah not hateful revol, just recognising that you dont need to moan about getting an abortion due to work/economic situations when there are many other options to stop getting pregnant in the first place, so stop being a prick and picking at bits you know dont work for you.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:23
powertotheimagination wrote:
If it does fair enough then get something else to stop pregnancy. There are other options except for an abortion.

maybe i should tell friends feeling they're economically unable to raise a child at the present time they should have been more careful. that'll learn 'em roll eyes

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jun 27 2007 15:24
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Capital's not really about communism. the clue is in the name.

Seriously, JK, I thought all you proper communists understood their motivation was ruthless self interest nowadays. That was where Marx and Smith met, was it not, that ruthless self-interest plays better to the collective interest than deliberate altruism.

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There are other options except for an abortion.

But not as tasty.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:26

Nah Joseph you missed what I said (or decided to bypass it anyway) If you are 'forced' into abortion I dont feel sorry for you as there are other forms of contraception you can use before you get to that stage, if you cant have kids due to your work thats different than a discussion over condoms/pills and abortions.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:27
Lazy Riser wrote:
Seriously, JK, I thought all you proper communists understood their motivation was ruthless self interest nowadays. That was where Marx and Smith met, was it not, that ruthless self-interest plays better to the collective interest than deliberate altruism.

which is why communists love scabs. seriously roll eyes

Flint
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Jun 27 2007 15:27
Lazy Riser wrote:
perhaps a little contraception might have been a better way of avoiding the emotional traumas associated with being too poor to afford children.

I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but the folks most in favor of having contraception being freely and readily available are also the ones that want abortion on demand; while those who oppose abortion are typically also those who oppose contraception.

Contraception isn't 100%, and typical use of contraception tends to even be lower.

Here in Maryland you can't even get birth control pills over the counter without a prescription; even if you've been taking the same pills for a decade. Most counties in the U.S. do not have an abortion provider.

There there is also the fight around the availability of emergency contraception.

P.S. Could you be any more of a condescending prick?

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jun 27 2007 15:29
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Could you be any more of a condescending prick?

Watch your mouth.

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Most counties in the U.S. do not have an abortion provider.

They don't let you gamble either. You guys should sort yourselves out.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:33
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Contraception isn't 100%, and typical use of contraception tends to even be lower.

Condom/pill works well.

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Interestingly you could use your argument the other way and say 'let's have no more whinging from those women in Ireland forced to travel to England to have an abortion, there are many other options to stop getting pregnant in the first place', and atleast they would justify that on 'protecting the unborn' as opposed to you whose is based on little more than a smug 'told you so'.

That is interesting, thanks revol for giving me even more from you to think about. Its good these women travel to England to get abortions, maybe they could pick up a pack of condoms from the family planning place at the same time?

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:33
powertotheimagination wrote:
Nah not hateful revol, just recognising that you dont need to moan about getting an abortion due to work/economic situations when there are many other options to stop getting pregnant in the first place, so stop being a prick and picking at bits you know dont work for you.

right, so unless you never miss a pill and your condoms function at a statistically improbable efficacy, it's your own fault. none of this changes the fact having got to this point women can feel 'forced' by economic factors.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:36

Joseph K, there are these new pills you can get, a few years old, called 48 hour ones, info on them comes from the local teen/family planning place. If you miss 3 chances (at least) to stop getting pregnant the guy must have sperm like Rambo or it is all divinely blessed.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:40

I would like to see that revol. Rather than the gospel quotes on pro-lifers cards you can have underneath your 'silly bitches' card you can have some words of socialist wisdom as to how they can break their bondaged chains. Bring along a few papers as well and you might even get some new recruits, good day all round I say!

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jun 27 2007 15:40
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Perhaps Lazy might wish to read some Marx, especially the early stuff, no?

Ha ha. I was rather relying on you communists to do that for me, seriously Revol, you're just winding me up. You know very well Marx proposed that narrow self interest was the driver of communism.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:41
Lazy Riser wrote:
You know very well Marx proposed that narrow self interest was the driver of communism.

which is why we love scabs

Flint
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Jun 27 2007 15:44
powertotheimagination wrote:
There are other options except for an abortion.

Removing your genitals, for example.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:45

So its you Flint on that vid my friend has on their phone. Did it hurt as much as it looked?

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:46
powertotheimagination wrote:
Joseph K, there are these new pills you can get, a few years old, called 48 hour ones, info on them comes from the local teen/family planning place. If you miss 3 chances (at least) to stop getting pregnant the guy must have sperm like Rambo or it is all divinely blessed.

i reckon we should give chimps 3 chances to avoid vivisection. after all they're intelligent creatures and can make their own decisions, if they fuck up three times they've brought it upon themselves.

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Jun 27 2007 15:49

Jesus JK, you've got me defending communist principles. Don't let Alf or Devrim find out, they'll never let me live it down. I tell you what though, some people are still labouring under the idea that abortion is somehow "wrong" or should only be used as a last resort. Is there really a magical life force that should be preserved or what? It must be like a vegan thing.

powertotheimagi...
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Jun 27 2007 15:51
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i reckon we should give chimps 3 chances to avoid vivisection. after all they're intelligent creatures and can make their own decisions, if they fuck up three times they've brought it upon themselves.

They are intelligent thats true (one gold star to Joseph), it depends how they would avoid vivisection. The injuries vivisectors sustain when chimps arnt restrained are testimony to the way they avoid vivisection. The way chimps are also known to actively help to remove themselves from cages when they are being removed from vivisection labs is also another way they try to avoid it. And for your third point, the way they have been shown to actively protest against vivisection, inc. the aforementioned injuries for vivisectors, is another way they avoid vivisection. So yeah if a chimp has an option to leave a vivisection lab, which many have, in the various ways they do leave and then volunterily returns, the chimps have fucked up.

Although I dont know how this relates to condoms.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2007 15:54
powertotheimagination wrote:
Although I dont know how this relates to condoms.

i just wanted to compare women to chimps