anarchist fascist website

397 posts / 0 new
Last post
Carousel
Offline
Joined: 19-09-07
Mar 19 2008 18:20
Quote:
Probably wouldn't be very practical here in Norway

For Odin and for Asgard!

welshboy's picture
welshboy
Offline
Joined: 11-05-06
Mar 20 2008 11:06

Posted on anarchy dot net last night in a wee thread about them being "hated on" by folk here and on flag.blackened.

Quote:
Why don't these sectarianists just JOIN the forums and deliver their e-bitching more directly? I'm not a neo-nazi and don't need to warned I'm being duped into becoming one. Though if this site is run by one, I would certainly appreciate a more honest hearing of any potentially reputable nazi ideas. I really don't think there ARE any, but...
BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 14:56
yuda wrote:
This is a scam of nigerian proportions
Quote:
http://bbs.anarchy.net/viewtopic.php?t=325
The idea behind making this is to save newcomers from needing to sift through hundreds of old posts to find out what we are about. If someone will sticky this, I'll be sure to keep it as updated as possible. Let me know if I left out something important Wink

Purpose:
The goal of Anarchia is proving that an anarchistic society can not only exist, but flourish. We hope that by setting such an example, we can encourage others to free themselves from the indoctrination of the current social/economic system.

Location:
The current plan is to purchase Isla Guafo which is located off the coast of southern Chile. The coordinates are 43"36'S 74"42'W, for those who wish to find it on a map. The island has enough timber to net us an additional $10,000,000 to finance construction of the initial settlement. Salmon farming is another potential source of initial income.

Philosophy:
The original Anarchia will be a land for Anarchists-Without-Adjectives. Additional land may be obtained later for more specialized communities. There are no laws in Anarchia. However, there is a code (guidelines):

I. I will honour myself, my comrades, and our collective.
II. I am equally responsible for the safety of our collective.
III. I will work my equal share according to my capabilities and skills.
IV. I recognize the power of no government, no authority, and no borders; I recognize that if any of these things exist, it is my responsibility to revolt against them.

Violation of this code may result in expulsion from Anarchia.

Economics:
Anarchia will use a gift economy system for the production and consumption of goods. This will remove the class structure and wage slavery which plagues society today. The island will be as self-sufficient as possible. Electricity will come from renewable sources (wind, solar, tidal). Food will be produced by farms on the island. We will export surplus products to the world. This will allow us to import goods that we are unable to produce.

So if this is a scam of Nigerian proportions, why has no one else in the anarchist community proposed the idea yet (as far as I know), much less run with it? And why not, I certainly don't think it's a bad idea even if it's current orchestration is a "scam".

Tacks's picture
Tacks
Offline
Joined: 8-11-05
Mar 20 2008 15:09

helloooo

you post on those forums don't you?

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 15:12

Why yes, actually, I do.
I'm not an anarcho-fascist either, just to clear that up.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Mar 20 2008 15:19

Bah, all those hippie communes turn into semi-fascist communities anyway. Hierarchies will develop usually based around some charismatic leader. Not to mention wanting to create such communes is a complete cop out and has very little to with overcoming capitalism.

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 15:25

If your outlook is as bleak as that,

"Hierarchies will develop usually based around some charismatic leader."

Then I have trouble understanding how you call yourself anarchist (if you do).
What is the progress of the "social" revolution again? I'm not belittling it, it NEEDS to happen, I'm just facing the reality that it hasn't and that we might want to try a different strategy.
Have you read any of the posts on that thread?
It's all about overcoming capitalism - it's about becoming self-sustainable and literally "purchasing the world", without actually using the capitalistic system ourselves.

ftony
Offline
Joined: 26-05-04
Mar 20 2008 15:32

purchasing stuff is using the capitalist system.

and anyway, i don't think you'll find many anarchists on here who will defend dropping out of capitalism as a way of fighting it.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Mar 20 2008 15:34

What I am referring to is buying some fucking Island in the middle of nowhere far away from everyone and everything. That is not the way to negate capitalism, that's a way to escape for the difficult task of day to day organizing. And it is in these very closed hippie communes that hierarchies tend to develop because the community is more or less insular from the rest of society. It is a cop out from revolutionary politics and it betrays a rather simplistic analysis of what capitalism is.

Quote:
It's all about overcoming capitalism - it's about becoming self-sustainable and literally "purchasing the world", without actually using the capitalistic system ourselves.

This has very little to do with revolutionary politics and more to do with wanting to live a different lifestyle. That's fine if you want to do that, but don't call it anarchist. And living on that island you most likely would have "use" the capitalist system in some way. I guess that you won't get all the medical experts, technical and engineering know how etc. you need to survive on such an island properly. Unless you're some kind of primmo and want to hunt and gather.

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 15:55

No. This is all about revolutionary politics. What better inspiration for anarchists worldwide than a running and successful anarchist island. You can call it a "hippie commune" all you want, but this is ANARCHISM. Lifestyle choice my ass. Just because we aim to be prosperous and stream-lined doesn't mean we'd need to recruit the capitalist system at all. What, expertise and non-primitivism is suddenly exploitation?

"purchasing stuff is using the capitalist system."
So I'm a capitalist every time I walk into a store to buy food for my children and family, huh? Sorry, that doesn't fly.
Privately owning the means of production is "using the capitalist system", using money is just using money. (Which in my opinion is even worse, which is why we WONT, if we don't want to. Voluntary associations all the way.)
Until anarchists can actually take some action and show the world we're not the lazy whining liberals it thinks we are, we'll remain the sensible minority.

Don't make the mistake of thinking this is some kind of retreat or permanent secession either. Until an anarchist system gains REAL WORKABLE economic leverage, it will remain a fantasy.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 15:56
Quote:
I'm not an anarcho-fascist either, just to clear that up.

I don't think anyone suggested everyone who posts on the site is a fascist. It is being suggested that the site itself is front run by an individual(s) who has created dozens of different websites to attract impressionable minds (once again, not a dig against you) claiming to embrace leftist ideology, but once you really begin to look a their politics, there is serious undertones of fascism. Once again, I'd also like to point out, that while the aforementioned plan uses nice 'anarchist' sounding words, the plan itself pretty contradictory (capitalism is global) and doesn't reflect the historical development of anarchism. Anarchism is based on a working class movement designed to take over the means of production in a widespread social revolution, not on notions of "buying" an island and living outside of capitalism.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 15:59
Quote:
"purchasing stuff is using the capitalist system."
So I'm a capitalist every time I walk into a store to buy food for my children and family, huh? Sorry, that doesn't fly.
Privately owning the means of production is "using the capitalist system", using money is just using money. (Which in my opinion is even worse, which is why we WONT, if we don't want to. Voluntary associations all the way.)

Simple misunderstanding: capitalism is a social relation. You don't become a capitalist when you buy things or engage in wage work, but capitalism is pervasive, in every sense of the word, so when you exist in a capitalist society, it is impossible to live without engaging in the social relations that capitalism creates.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 16:02
Quote:
The island has enough timber to net us an additional $10,000,000 to finance construction of the initial settlement. Salmon farming is another potential source of initial income.

And who will you be selling this to? Capitalist nations? Capitalist enterprises? Clearly you will be selling commodities on the capitalist market? See what I'm saying about the contradictions of this plan and capitalism being a social relation that one can't just 'drop out' of?

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:02

But when that island IS a means of production? The island strategy doesn't "overthrow" capitalism as much as it does undermine it. Think about it. In anarchist-anarchist interaction, there would be no capitalism and no class, but in anarchist-capitalist interaction, there would be a steady accumulation of money through non-compulsively produced material trade. With that money comes the steady purchase of MORE land, until finally the entire world is classless, stateless, and free.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
Offline
Joined: 14-03-06
Mar 20 2008 16:06
BulimicMind wrote:
But when that island IS a means of production? The island strategy doesn't "overthrow" capitalism as much as it does undermine it. Think about it. In anarchist-anarchist interaction, there would be no capitalism and no class, but in anarchist-capitalist interaction, there would be a steady accumulation of money through non-compulsively produced material trade. With that money comes the steady purchase of MORE land, until finally the entire world is classless, stateless, and free.

hahahaha! you're going to accumulate enough capital to buy out all the capitalists, without being a capitalist? hahaha

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 16:07

Bulimic, I don't doubt your passion, but you're not not going to be able to free the world by buying away capitalism. Not only is this contradictory, but it is not anarchist. Once again, anarchism is a working class struggle in which the working class take over the means of production. The power of the working class resides not in accumulating wealth, but in the fact we create the wealth. Our power lies in our labor and this is what we must use to bring about the social revolution.

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:09

You're right about not being able to just "drop out" of capitalism. But yes, anarchisticly produced surplus material gets traded to capitalist country for money. This money is stored in a sort of "unusable collective bank account", where nobody has need to use it (in the anarchist gift economy, there'd be no need). Then when the capitalist nations, through their strife and war, need recovery, we offer them money, for their territory.
Over time, this plan will "recycle money out of existence", so to speak.
Not that money itself will be banned in anarchy, but it will no longer serve a capitalistic end (if you're one of the one's that thinks that's possible).

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:10

You guys laugh, but I don't see this as "abandoning" anarchism at all. It's proving to the entire doubtful world that anarchy is possible.

jef costello's picture
jef costello
Offline
Joined: 9-02-06
Mar 20 2008 16:13

Except that capitalist countries will not sell you sovereign territory.
And assuming that your plan was going to work as soon as you became even close to a threat they'd simply invade and conquer you.

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:18

Who says they won't sell? That's the crux of capitalism after all - inefficiency. When the US dollar finally becomes completely worthless and they're struggling to regain their precious power, we'll be there, reminding them they can have all the money they want - for just a little piece of Alaska, or maybe some non-50state territory.
Why would they invade us? We wouldn't be attacking them. We wouldn't be a threat. In their eyes, we'd be a blessing. If money is what they're after, lets give it to them - by not using the damn stuff ourselves.
All we need is the leverage (island with valuable material)
And the strength (that famous anarchist labor we hear so much about)

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 16:19

Bulimic,

To use your words: "think about it." This site is being run a by a guy who believe there should be no "interbreeding" between races. He trying to raise money in the name of anarchism to buy an island. As we've quite effectively demonstrated, this plan has no historical background within anarchism and is severely and irreconcilably flawed as a strategy to overcome capitalism. He's clearly a racist, fascistly inclined nut job trying to manipulate impressionable minds who rightfully feel isolated within capitalist society by using 'anarchist' sounding language. It's like a fucking proto-fascist cult, man.

Like I said, I don't think you're a fascist and I don't doubt your dedication, but can I suggest that you read some introductory Marx (say Value, Price, and Profit available on Libcom) and perhaps the Anarchist FAQ or some Berkman (Intro to anarchism) for a bit of economic education and historical anarchist analysis?

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
Offline
Joined: 14-03-06
Mar 20 2008 16:21

if achieving a sufficiently favourable balance of trade to legally expropriate the entire world bourgeoisie is so viable, why hasn't lesotho bought california?

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 16:23
Quote:
We wouldn't be a threat.

If 'Anarchia' does create a non-capitalist society and "[prove] to the entire doubtful world that anarchy is possible," you will be a serious fucking threat. Not that I think this plan is remotely possibly, but, Jesus, if you were successful just look what happened to Spain in '36.

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:28

Just a quick question, if you are familiar w/ Marx:
how did he define capital?
Just wondering. Because I think there's a difference between what you own and how you get to owning it, which I haven't really picked up from him (not that I'm a Marx scholar).

And even if freeman (anarchy.net founder) is a semi-racist, that doesn't mean he can't be convinced. There's certainly no reason to say, "well that's just that crazy fascist guy over there, perverting the ideas of anarchism." If that's what you think he's doing, say something about it! Raise the issue THERE, don't tell people to either support or flat-out ignore it.

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:33
ncwob wrote:
Quote:
We wouldn't be a threat.

If 'Anarchia' does create a non-capitalist society and "[prove] to the entire doubtful world that anarchy is possible," you will be a serious fucking threat. Not that I think this plan is remotely possibly, but, Jesus, if you were successful just look what happened to Spain in '36.

Ah, the difference here is that Spain in 36 was.... Spain in 36. There was communism, capitalism, anarchism, and fascism all struggling for the same power in the same place. If there is a purely anarchist large industrial community established, offering it's trade to foreign nations... those nations would take it.
And lets say they did invade. The least we'll have done is made a martyr of ourselves whilst we were around.
Remember, Anarchist Spain wasn't conquered. It gave itself up, so to speak.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 16:36

http://libcom.org/library/value-price-and-profit-karl-marx

Quote:
And even if freeman (anarchy.net founder) is a semi-racist, that doesn't mean he can't be convinced. There's certainly no reason to say, "well that's just that crazy fascist guy over there, perverting the ideas of anarchism." If that's what you think he's doing, say something about it! Raise the issue THERE, don't tell people to either support or flat-out ignore it.

That's what MJ was doing that started this entire conversation, hence his long warning statement. And its not just that freeman (not his real name) is a semi-racist perverting anarchism, he's clearly fascistly-inclined and using anarchism to manipulate disenchanted youth. I don't want to engage with a fucker like that. I do, on the other hand, feel the need to warn those who post on the site, and trust me, it'll be done.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Mar 20 2008 16:42
Quote:
Anarchist Spain wasn't conquered. It gave itself up, so to speak.

That is quite a statement, my friend. You need to back that up to the thousands of people who were slaughtered by the fascists because the Stalinists refused them access to guns while the Western liberal democracies ignored, and even tacitly and openly supported, the slaughter.

Sure, mistakes were made, but the point still stands: institute a widespread anarchist inspired social revolution and all power structures in the world who are threatened by it are going to attempt to kill your ass. Now to return to a previous point: the only way to prevent this is to appeals to workers worldwide to flex their industrial power--refuse to produce weapons, refuse to fight, etc. Once again, the power of the working class is our economic power. Buy all the islands you want, but until anarchists make the working class realize that, the best you can hope to do is become martyrs.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Mar 20 2008 16:49
Quote:
So I'm a capitalist every time I walk into a store to buy food for my children and family, huh? Sorry, that doesn't fly.

Nah, not at all what I said. As a worker you're part and parcel of capitalism. You have little choice but to consume that vast collection of commodities. Everyday each and everyone of us reproduce capitalism, we're its willing and unwilling servants. However, since we're the ones that basically runs the whole system we also have the power to overthrow it and replace it with something better (to put it mildly). Running an "anarchist" island will do fuck all for the revolution, it's just alternative living nothing more and nothing less. The 60s and 70s gave us all the lessons we would ever want with those types of projects, and they all failed sooner or later. In fact even in the 1800s (and earlier) there were many such projects that could even be considered successful, they did however very little for the revolution and were often so secluded from everyone else that they hardly amounted to examples to follow.

Unless you want to run this island as a mash of Big Brother and Survivor and stream it online for all to see it will only seem to you and the few others that join you that you're doing something for the anarchist revolution (edit: and even then it would not even teach anything about anarchist and it would just be fun to watch a proper lord of the flies/ the beach style scenario play out again).

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 16:55

"CNT-FAI collaboration with government during the war

In 1936, the CNT decided, after several refusals, to collaborate with the government of Largo Cabellero. Juan García Oliver became Minister of Justice (where he abolished legal fees and had all criminal dossiers destroyed), Diego Abad de Santillán became Minister of the Economy, and Federica Montseny became Minister of Health, to name a few instances.

During the Spanish Civil War, many anarchists outside of Spain criticized the CNT leadership for entering into government and compromising with communist elements on the Republican side. Those in Spain felt that this was a temporary adjustment, and that once Franco was defeated, they would continue in their libertarian ways. There was also concern with the growing power of authoritarian communists within the government. Montseny later explained: "At that time we only saw the reality of the situation created for us: the communists in the government and ourselves outside, the manifold possibilities, and all our achievements endangered."

Indeed, some anarchists outside of Spain viewed their concessions as necessary considering the grim possibility of losing everything should the fascists win the war. Emma Goldman said, "With Franco at the gate of Madrid, I could hardly blame the CNT-FAI for choosing a lesser evil: participation in government rather than dictatorship, the most deadly evil." [1]

To this day, the issue remains controversial among anarchists."

courtesy Wikipedia. Like I said, conflicting interests, "gave up".

BulimicMind
Offline
Joined: 20-03-08
Mar 20 2008 17:01

Saying that the powers that be will simply kill any anarchist rising refutes yourself as well as it does me.
The island strategy still looks workable to me. If you disagree, well, there's not much more I can say.
What's LESS threatening to the upper class and governments - a self sustained power buying anarchism into reality - or a "working class revolution" on THEIR territory under THEIR law?