Yeah the US working class is dying to be organized by the likes of Duke.
I know, I know, they've winning too much by "conditioning" their managers with their informal workplace groups to be duped by the left wing of capital.
Devrim wrote:
Both of the major left communist organisations have members in the US, and the positions come from the collective experience of the class, and the organisation.Alternately, maybe they *don't* reflect the experience of the class here, which is why we extend the derision and ridicule those groups' members attract here to their possibly more worthy and sensible comrades abroad.
I think that in the States there is a lower level of class struggle than in Europe. It would be possible for us to brush things off with the idea that it is due to the lower level of struggle. I don't think that we do that though, and it would be a mistake.
It would, however, be criminal to extrapolate international positions purely from looking at America.
Devrim
Yeah the US working class is dying to be organized by the likes of Duke.
Do we want to measure how many workers the IWW has organized versus SEIU? Or specifically how many workers Duke has helped organize versus Oliver? Or do we want to measure actual material gains for that number of workers, we could probably come up with a dollar amount even?
I don't think we can dispute the popularity of some forms of organization versus others.
Now whether those organizations are desirable, is another matter entirely.
More people showed up to a Cooking with Paula Dean exhibit in D.C. this weekend, than workers showed up to picket the exhibit to get Paula Dean to meet with Smithfield slaughterhouse workers. It was a UFCW line... though I think I saw some wobblies there.
devrim:
I think that in the States there is a lower level of class struggle than in Europe.
define "lower level." historically there was, up to World War II, a far more violent history of class conflict in the USA than in western Europe (with the exception of Spain). i think there has also been historically a lower level of class consciousness in the USA insofar as this is reflected in degree of support for some sort of anti-capitalist viewpoint. these two things are related to the type of unionism that exists in the USA.
Side topic: the two main organizations of left-communism? Are you talking ICC & ICG? If so, why? I'd tried to keep all such comparisons at arms length.
I actually think the misunderstandings about unions is widespread. For example most anglos don't have a good sense of how different the german system is, or even the canadian system, etc. If you recall, I was actually arguing that the way the anarkismo statement is worded doesn't fit the US (or Canadian) contexts very well (despite making some sense).
define "lower level." historically there was, up to World War II, a far more violent history of class conflict in the USA than in western Europe (with the exception of Spain). i think there has also been historically a lower level of class consciousness in the USA insofar as this is reflected in degree of support for some sort of anti-capitalist viewpoint. these two things are related to the type of unionism that exists in the USA.
You can define it anyway you like I suppose. There were some big struggles in the early part of the century, but I was speaking in present tense.
Side topic: the two main organizations of left-communism? Are you talking ICC & ICG? If so, why? I'd tried to keep all such comparisons at arms length.
ICC, and IBRP. I don't understand the why question.
I actually think the misunderstandings about unions is widespread. For example most anglos don't have a good sense of how different the german system is, or even the canadian system, etc. If you recall, I was actually arguing that the way the anarkismo statement is worded doesn't fit the US (or Canadian) contexts very well (despite making some sense).
I think that at a certain level our politics must be universal. This is a huge problem if you are determining it based on one system.
Devrim
To say that the ICC has an international perspective is a bit of a stretch. A former ICC member told me that often setting up a new international section occurs through sending a few british members somewhere and proclaiming it. It's hard to argue that having a handful of people just being somewhere constitutes having theory derived from the international class experience.
It's true we should have international politics, but one based on the realities in diverging areas. It's not so much whether to generalize or not, but how you do that counts.
Hmm. I should get NEFAC to set up a section in Hawai'i.
"A former ICC member told me that often setting up a new international section occurs through sending a few british members somewhere and proclaiming it".
If only we had enough British members to do that! As it is, we have to rely mainly on Mexicans in Mexico, Indians in India, the French in France etc; although like most proletarians, there are a fair number of immigrants and emigrants among us.
If only we had enough British members to do that! As it is, we have to rely mainly on Mexicans in Mexico,
Out of curiosity, would your group consider a child of two British people born in Mexico a Mexican?
If not, what would define a Mexican?
not Alan 
Right sure i suppose it's not funny why i say it.
loloz.
OliverTwister wrote:
Yeah the US working class is dying to be organized by the likes of Duke.I know, I know, they've winning too much by "conditioning" their managers with their informal workplace groups to be duped by the left wing of capital.
Well if you're an anarchist then you should believe in the working classes capacity for self-organization. If they wanted to be in "unions" like the SEIU, all hell would not stop them. There would be no need for AFSCME's "Green Machine" of professional paid 'organizers', the working class would organize itself into "unions".
Whether the working class is on the offensive right now with new forms of struggle or not is irrelevant. The fact is that the US working class thinks of unions as at best extremely limited tools which may be useful.
If "they" wanted communism, by the same logic, all hell would not stop them.
Are you still in the IWW, and if so, why?
If "they" wanted communism, by the same logic, all hell would not stop them.
Exactly.
The difference is that "communism" does not have paid "organizers" trying to convince the working class to join up.
eta: I'm only in the IWW to live out my anachronistic fantasies, obviously. A critique of unions would be completely incompatible with an anarcho-syndicalist viewpoint.
You're a voluntary member of a union, big guy. How come?
You're a voluntary member of a union, big guy. How come?
Seriously! Would you just accept the irreconciable contradictions in your politics and turn in your little red card already? Me and Duke got money on how long this would take and my wager window is closing soon...
MJ wrote:
You're a voluntary member of a union, big guy. How come?Seriously! Would you just accept the irreconciable contradictions in your politics and turn in your little red card already? Me and Duke got money on how long this would take and my wager window is closing soon...
I'm holding on just to spite you.
I guess I'm 'critically supporting' duke.
I guess as long as you don't get anyone else to join up your hands are technically kept clean.
Ultraleft-syndicalist with business union hack sympathies? Interesting.
I guess as long as you don't get anyone else to join up your hands are technically kept clean.
If anything, his membership is keeping people away from the I.W.W. And a recent comment on the internal list might make someone leave in frustration.
Maybe he's another Monsieur Dupont fan, and he's trying to undermine the IWW because it's holding the working class back from revolution?
MJ wrote:
I guess as long as you don't get anyone else to join up your hands are technically kept clean.If anything, his membership is keeping people away from the I.W.W. And a recent comment on the internal list might make someone leave in frustration.
Excuse me? Which people exactly am I keeping away from the IWW? And how would you be in a position to know that?
j.rogue wrote:
MJ wrote:
I guess as long as you don't get anyone else to join up your hands are technically kept clean.If anything, his membership is keeping people away from the I.W.W. And a recent comment on the internal list might make someone leave in frustration.
Excuse me? Which people exactly am I keeping away from the IWW? And how would you be in a position to know that?
I know one of your comments on the list rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and that the attitude behind the comment was cited as a one of the obstacles to organizing. People I have talked to about joining want to be in a union, not an activist club. (yes, cryptic reference to an internal email. all you non-wobs can enjoy the suspense.)
Its heart-breaking to see FW's bicker like this. This is definitely not the "solidarity spirit of 1912" you'd hope to see from good wobbly folk! Wait, Oliver made a comment that rubbed someone the wrong way? Surely you jest. Do tell...
Oliver, don't get so defensive. Why should you be ashamed that your principled stand is making the IWW seem less appealing to entry by the kind of reformist vultures who fetishize "unions"?
I assume this is the email rogue is referring to. Its the only one I've sent to the internal list in quite awhile.
I am sick of the fact that every time i open a digest from this list it has
a rant from xxxx advocating the Ebola virus, or army takeovers of society.I'm unsure whether his apparent insanity is grounds for expulsion, but I'm
sure it is obvious to everyone that he should not be a member.At the least, he should be removed from this list. Nothing is gained from
any of his 'contributions'.I am not going to discuss this with him as he appears completely insane and
in contradiction with the principles of this organization.Yours for working class emancipation,
Oliver
This was in response to someone who had written this:
Collapse is developing. The probable outcome will be an Army takeover
to keep essential services running. The only Nation that is a bit
prepared for that are the Swiss. Pity all the ignorant fake democrats
in the rest of the world do not see the benefit of that system.
and this:
Any scientific Marxist (the world is overpopulated with bigoted dogmatic
Marxists) must see that taking up a one child per family policy will
increase the relative wealth to population ratio and enable the
withering away of the State that Marx was calling for. It is probably
now too late for that policy to save this Creation from Mass
Extinction, God is being rather lackadaisical at getting Ibola onto
the Airlines and into the subways of the world to stop Industrial
activity and crash the Stock Market. That rather weakens evidence
that He/She/it exists.
(my emphasis)
I'm sure everyone is capable of making their own decisions about whose emails would keep more potential members away.
I assume this is the email rogue is referring to. Its the only one I've sent to the internal list in quite awhile.Quote:
I am sick of the fact that every time i open a digest from this list it has
a rant from xxxx advocating the Ebola virus, or army takeovers of society.I'm unsure whether his apparent insanity is grounds for expulsion, but I'm
sure it is obvious to everyone that he should not be a member.At the least, he should be removed from this list. Nothing is gained from
any of his 'contributions'.I am not going to discuss this with him as he appears completely insane and
in contradiction with the principles of this organization.Yours for working class emancipation,
OliverThis was in response to someone who had written this:
Quote:
Collapse is developing. The probable outcome will be an Army takeover
to keep essential services running. The only Nation that is a bit
prepared for that are the Swiss. Pity all the ignorant fake democrats
in the rest of the world do not see the benefit of that system.and this:
Quote:
Any scientific Marxist (the world is overpopulated with bigoted dogmatic
Marxists) must see that taking up a one child per family policy will
increase the relative wealth to population ratio and enable the
withering away of the State that Marx was calling for. It is probably
now too late for that policy to save this Creation from Mass
Extinction, God is being rather lackadaisical at getting Ibola onto
the Airlines and into the subways of the world to stop Industrial
activity and crash the Stock Market. That rather weakens evidence
that He/She/it exists.(my emphasis)
I'm sure everyone is capable of making their own decisions about whose emails would keep more potential members away.
Posting internal emails! CHARGES!!1
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Yeah the US working class is dying to be organized by the likes of Duke.