Andrea Dworkin Dies, Aged 58

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LeonardfromLeom...
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Apr 12 2005 10:18
Andrea Dworkin Dies, Aged 58

From the BBc website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4435193.stm

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Ramona
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Apr 12 2005 12:35

Ah well.

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the button
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Apr 12 2005 12:41
zobag wrote:
Ah well.

.... after more than 2 hours. grin

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Apr 12 2005 13:36

Stop picking on me. Ok, I'll elaborate - never mind, she was a rambling idiot who did more harm than good for the feminist cause, and I for one won't be loosing any sleep over it.

tongue

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the button
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Apr 12 2005 13:41

A comment on the fact that no-one seemed to give much of a fuck, rather than on the quality of your post. After all, "Ah well" was more than I could muster. wink

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the button
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Apr 12 2005 13:43

..... for the sake of getting some controversy going, might I suggest that she will be missed more by the global pie manufacturing industry, than by the feminist movement?

Wendal
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Apr 12 2005 19:11

Anti-porn crusader Dworkin dies was that the nicest title they could come up with. What a total lack of respect.

Expsecialy compared to this: World mourns Pope at Rome funeral http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4422699.stm

I would prefer: Anti-Homosexuality/Abortion crusader dies for the pope and some more respectfull title for Dworkin.

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Apr 12 2005 19:21

Such as?

Pepe
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Apr 12 2005 19:25

Such as 'Misunderstood Radical Feminist Visionary' perhaps.

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Ramona
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Apr 12 2005 19:33

But she was a nutcase?

Wendal
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Apr 12 2005 19:42

Jess>> Well said. It is neutral, respectfull and factbased.

Pepe
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Apr 12 2005 19:45

"The discovery is, of course, that "man" and "woman" are fictions, caricatures, cultural constructs. As models they are reductive totalitarian, inappropriate to human becoming. As roles they are static, demeaning to the female, dead-ended for the male and female both (Dworkin 1974, p. 174)."

Totally fucking loopy roll eyes

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Apr 12 2005 20:04
Quote:
Pregnancy is confirmation that the woman has been fucked: it is confirmation that she has a cunt . . . The display marks her as a whore . . . Her belly is proof that she has been used. Her belly is his phallic triumph . . . The pregnancy is punishment for her participation in sex. She will get sick, her body will go wrong in a thousand different ways, she will die. The sexual excitement is in her possible death . . . And now, the doctors have added more sex--to birth itself . . . They cut directly into the uterus with a knife-- a surgical fuck.
Quote:
The pornographers rank with Nazis and Klansmen in promoting hatred and violence.
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Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks
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Male sexuality, drunk on its intrinsic contempt for all life
Quote:
In seduction, the rapist bothers to buy a bottle of wine

Need I labour the point?

Yeah, she was a fucking nut job who did more harm than good for the feminist movement.

If saying men are inherently prone to rape and all it takes is a little porn to turn the nice boy next door into a slobbering sadistic rapist, and then begging the American government to ban all pornography to protect women for their own good is radical and visionary, then.... I'll eat my own ears.

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Apr 12 2005 20:05

And she had no class analysis.

si
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Apr 12 2005 20:25

so far as I can tell - and this is from a position of relative ignorance - Dworkin was concerned with actually-existing sexual norms, rather than some idealistic concern with sexual 'truths'. EG when she described sex as rape, she meant that a certain sort of sex - sex incorporating violence - was rape, not that all sex was rape. Similarly with the pregancy thing, can't she just be understood as trying to verbalise the cultural status of pregnancy? eg within a misogynistic, patriarchal society?

(not that I necessarily agree with the verbalisation)

si
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Apr 12 2005 20:27

from an indymedia comment:

"We have a double standard, which is to say, a man can show how much he cares by being violent - see, he's jealous, he cares - a woman shows how much she cares by how much she's willing to be hurt; by how much she will take; how much she will endure;"

seems pretty sensible.

Pepe
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Apr 12 2005 21:01

Si you're awesome. I was gunna go to Gower St today but I didn't.

I don't think all of Dworkins points were meant to be taken literally. And I do belive that she personally had a class analysis (Well I know she was anti-capitalist...) but didn't really link it to her theories. Which is, granted, shit.

And she never wanted pornography banned. She didn't believe in censorship.

si
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Apr 12 2005 21:43

she just wanted paedophiles and rapists murdered Mr. T

not sure I like all her stuff on vengeance tbh. it's not something I've ever been big on. I prefer Kroppotkin's formulation, that says it's inevitable but unfortunate...

btw Jess: embarrassed not used to that sort of reception here. I've not been @ Gower St for a fortnight (taking my middle-class student liberty to drop out of drop-out lifestylism by going home to the countryside) grin

random
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Apr 12 2005 22:27

zobag

well done for copying and pasting some quotes from anti dworkin pages online. have you ever actually read any of her work?

Quote:
And now, the doctors have added more sex--to birth itself . . . They cut directly into the uterus with a knife-- a surgical fuck.

read some stuff about childbirth and its medical takeover. as someone who has had one caesarean and is fighting not to have another, i not only understand this quote but i agree with it. 23%+ of births in this country are caesareans. male obstetricians think they can deliver babies better than women can birth them. they have the power to take away womens rights to their own bodies in childbirth. its worse in the US, where dworkin comes from. midwives are even illegal in some states. i saw revol use this quote before here, and he didnt have a clue what she's talking about either.

Quote:
In seduction, the rapist bothers to buy a bottle of wine

do you really have no sense of what she means here? i stopped accepting drink or drugs from men years ago, finally got wise to the harassment and the expectations that tend to follow.

Quote:
Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks

it certainly is in many of the 'romantic' movie scenes ive seen over the years. she doesnt want to, he stalks her for a while, they have a big row, he grabs her and forces his lips onto hers, she melts into his arms... ah romance. where "passion" means jealousy and beatings, he only does it because he loves me. etcetera.

random
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Apr 12 2005 22:53
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The pregnancy quote is beyond comprehension, infact even in the most brutally patriarchial of societes I doubt pregnancy would be symbolic of the mad shit she grafts onto it.

i get that you dont understand it. but it isnt the nonsense you think it is. really. i have no idea where that quote actually comes from, and would be very interested to read the rest of the chapter, if you can tell me where you originally saw it? my current reading is pretty much all pregnancy/childbirth related. thanks.

random
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Apr 12 2005 22:58

its funny, for all the "she turned people off feminism"s, ive seen so many women, so many feminists, write in the past few days about how influential and important she was to them, even when they don't agree with her. i dont think she turned people off 'feminism'. anti feminists have used manipulations of her quotes or outright lies about her to try to discredit feminism. thats different.

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Apr 12 2005 23:14

She turned me off feminism

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Apr 12 2005 23:23
Quote:
Dworkin

Hehe. She has a funny name grin

Wendal
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Apr 13 2005 09:16

Jack>> Yeah. And he realy knows what he is talking about.

zobag wrote:
And she had no class analysis.

However, she also wrote about the class perspective on feminism, in books such as Right-Wing Women

/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin

grin

LeonardfromLeom...
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Apr 13 2005 09:20
random wrote:
its funny, for all the "she turned people off feminism"s, ive seen so many women, so many feminists, write in the past few days about how influential and important she was to them, even when they don't agree with her.

Isn't that part of the problem?

random
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Apr 13 2005 10:20

zobag "patching up after patriarchy", you dont actually seem to have much of an idea what feminism is.

nosos
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Apr 13 2005 11:01
random wrote:
zobag "patching up after patriarchy", you dont actually seem to have much of an idea what feminism is.

roll eyes roll eyes

nosos
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Apr 13 2005 11:03

Serious question though: I read yesterday that sex with force is rape according to Dworkin wheras I always thought she just said that all sex with rape. What constitutes force? Does this principle only apply male-->female or can it apply female-->male or male--->male or female--->female?

nosos
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Apr 13 2005 11:23
zobag wrote:
Quote:
The pornographers rank with Nazis and Klansmen in promoting hatred and violence.
Quote:
Male sexuality, drunk on its intrinsic contempt for all life

roll eyes

random
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Apr 13 2005 11:23

dworkin believed that forced sex is rape. she specifically talked about sex within marriage being rape, but this was at a time when women were not deemed to have the right to say no to their husband. in her opinion, if you dont have the choice, its rape. (i agree)

she also wrote a lot about popular cultures twisting of personal relationships, taking away any real concept of choice by societal/cultural (?) programming from an early age. i think this part is misunderstood a lot. when she talks about "romance" and "seduction", she is talking about those things as set up and promoted by US popular culture. from john wayne movies to "pretty woman", from disney films to mtv, etc etc, its obvious to me that the mainstream US portrayal of "seduction" is more than a little bit dodgy.

nosos
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Apr 13 2005 11:27

to say that sex without choice is rape is little more than a truism. is that all there is to her view on the subject?