Andrea Dworkin Dies, Aged 58

Fucking hell, serious debate.

Can't we just call each other cocks?

Or just make more S&M jokes?

In fact, I was just setting one up. You were supposed to post "Cock," & then I was going to post "Thankyou, mistress."

[...]

and yes, i think franz fannon had a lot of useful, good stuff to say. and yes i do support genuine national liberation struggles. and no, i don't find that my feminism or support of national liberation struggles leads me to unavoidable cross class alliances, if thats your point. maybe because i have a brain and an ability to look and learn analytically from my experiences.

[...]

post edited because it was almost entirely a flame on revol that upon second reading was not particularly constructive

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post, which is largely an off-topic rejoinder to revol68's attack, but this made me want to ask

How on earth not? Isn't that the point of NL struggles- the creation of an identity that excludes class?

I support the progressive elements within scottish liberation movement, yes, and the breakdown of the rest of the united kingdom into autonomous, cooperative parts.

i consider it analagous to asking a class struggle anarchist if they would support a working class racist or wife beater.

with regards to scottish liberation from london rule, scotland is also made up of regions that were, prior to the union with england, under imperialist rule from within "scotland". its just a matter of length of time. edinburgh has no more right to rule eg the highlands and islands, or even the lowlands than westminster.

i'm really happy to continue this discussion. i'd be interested in a constructive dialogue where every party learns something and grows as a result. i'm unlikely to respond to aggressive flaming.

But I thought Fanon's idea* was that national liberation struggles are good but only if they do not result in the formation of nation-States, as nation States suck and lead to exactly the same structures of dependence and inequality as colonialism/occupation?

*this may not be true, as I said I haven't yet read, but I'm pretty sure that's what our lecturer said

Hi there Button. How you doing Zobag??

Could you do me a favour and staple those posts to Jess' brain, since I've been trying to explain this to her for ages.

I'm not surprised you're if you've got a lecturer like that.

It's a few years since I read Fanon, & he just pisses me off, so I can't bring myself to rehearse his pseudo-psychoanalytic, reifying, ontologising, objectifying, village-Hegel wank.

Mmmm...... I feel better for that.

Revol used the exact same arguments for SG as punks. "Girls do it, so it must be OK". Jesus fucking Christ. Even Rancid fucking News has a better critique of SG than him. I think.

What, as in "girls do punk so it's ok"?

firstly i never meant to discredit subjective experiance just to the use of identity politics and "victimhood" to back up otherwise completely retarded beliefs.

secondly suicide girls is no better than anyother pin up site (to use the term porn seems a bit daft for what is softer than an evening on the BBC), as for it being women run well i mentioned it not to present it as right on, just to show how the whole notion of a "common interest" or shared subjectivity based on being a women is beyond stupid. Thirdly, and this is just for zobag really, alot of the girls on it are far from having the "body beautiful" (of course they fit a certain aesthetic, interestingly the pics they use for previews tend to be closer to the "mainstrem".), i do agree whole heartedly that they do come across as a bunch of spoilt lil divas who aren't as smart as they think considering they get fuck all money from the site (i suppouse to be Bordieuian about it we could say that they are happy with their cultural capital instead ).

Franz Fannon, imagine if the SCUM manifesto was written by an academic, replace "women" with third world nationalism and add all sorts of grand metaphors that serve only to mask the brutality and violence of national liberation (whilst at the smae thime revelling in it), that my friends is "The Wretched of the Earth", the most overrated pile of shite since Marcuses "One Dimensional Man".

As for the compatiability of national liberation and class analysis, well that one has been gone over a million times. Anyway as you said the "nation" to be liberated soon quickly fragments into more and more nations, which in turn fragment into other divisions, so that in the end you end up with a russian doll. Anyway speaking "as a victim" of nationalisms (both Irish and British) may I claim some authority in saying that the mixture of class struggle with nationalism is the most dangerous threat to communism since the Prussians cut a deal with Versailles.

C'mon, someone..... say you like Ulrich Beck. I fucking dare you. (I quite enjoyed that little rant about Fanon).

normally-mild-mannered button

Ah I thought so. Fairy nuff.

Yup

Really? I guess that's just the impression the non-members bit gives you then. Although I'm not sure I believe you

Oh that's really wierd, our tutor was saying it was ace, and she's normally pretty sound. Well I'm meant to either read that or "The Black Jacobins" by C.L.R. James, so I guess I'll go for the latter. Though you're probably going to tell me that he's actually from The Nation of Islam or something..

I'd go for CLR James every time, 'cause at least you can read it without losing the will to live. His cricket books are better, though

CLR James is supposed to be sound. Butchers sent me something by him that I havent read yet.

And I went to see catch last week for a drink and there was a "CLR James Square" which I thought was probably cool.

No...in fact, I can't remember whether Edd was even anti-Suicide Girls. Whenever I discussed porn with him he chose the horrible copout argument of "what if the porn was made on a desert island haven from patriarchy by two people in a loving relationship at the girl's suggestion cos TV had been a bit crap lately??" or something equally banal. I don't really get the point of people refusing to condemn porn cos a situation can be conceived of in which porn isn't bad. It's like me refusing to say I hated my job cos I can conceive of my job maybe not sucking one day, if all the things that sucked about it (ie me working) were removed. It's just useless liberal shite.

The good news is I found out yesterday that RN is no more. Well, good news for all of you.

So why go there?? You some alternative grebo or some nonsense?? Haven't you heard the First Law of Class Struggle: Thou Shalt Find The Racist Jane Norman from Girls Aloud Attractive??

Calm down...

shit ive just worked out you lot can't actually see those pics!

Okay hows that for the body beautiful?

oh and not meaning to sound liek a cheesy chat up line but from what I remember you looked exaclty like the type they all go ape shit for on suicide girls, tall pink girl. i'll lend you my specs and we can split the profits (oh wait all you get is a free membership and a fucking hoodie, i bags the hoodie!).

if anyone sees rkn tell him sorry for pimpin out his girlfriend and if it's any consolation everyone is laughing at me for having a pink and black hoodie.

alan go away you sad lil adolescent.

I'm perfectly calm. I'd hate to burst Revol's bubble somewhat but I enjoy clashing with him as much as he does.

Now you've really confused me. Are you saying that porn should be condemned all the time cos it's made under patriarchy? (genuine confusion, not an accusation...)

alan your thicker than a fucking bar of Yorkie!

people refuse to condemn porn because it is a reactionary stand point and because porn is not a social relationship but rather the depiction of sexual images for the purpose of arrousal. Your analogy may stand if you were willing to condemn the sandwhiches, tea bags and mars bars or anything else you sell in your shop. I can of course condemn the social relations in which certain porn was produced or even the role some porn has in reinforcing actual social relations but im not thick enough to condemn "porn" per se. You know it's kinda like the anti technology arguments.

now seriously alan go away and stop embarrassing yourself by trying to score points off me, you have neither the wit or the intellect.

PINK??!!! Fucking pink???!! Jesus christ no. If you're refering to my hair, I think you'll find the term you're after is "red", you cocksnot. I find the "pink" thing way more offensive than you're pimping suggetion any day. Pink my arse. Well, I guess my arse is kinda pink... oh hang on, what?

Look what happens to my coherency and debating skills when faced with such gruesome accusations

I believe you also get free SG panties.

Well yeah kinda. I think "radicals" (aka Edd, cos noone else seriously calls themselves that do they??) get too caught up in inventing hypothetical pornography that might not be oppressive, whereas in reality patriarchy's the problem surely??

And here's the bit where Revol barges in and says some wanky rhetorical crap and everyone laughs. Fucking intellectuals.

Nope still "What you're seeing is an ad..."

I learned a new word.

I'm not sure that's exactly what he was trying to say. Although maybe it was, in which case yes I'd agree.