Andrea Dworkin Dies, Aged 58

damn the qwerty lay out with it's I placed so precariously (oh don't you know precarcity is the new black ) next to the U.

John have you just been lurking on this thread in the hope that someone will post up free porn?

Sorry alan but revol has got you here - saying you condemn something per se just because it's bad under capitalism is what primitivists do with technology. It is bollocks.

Zobag it seems pretty clear that he is saying that.

And 'bag - you hair's pink as the panther, dude.

now you've completely lost me

he's pretending he was saying you have "punk" hair

I was just trying to give the benefit of the doubt and all...

Get fucked you idiot, it's RED. Ok so it went a bit pink in the sun on holiday, but it's now undeniably red. And you're in no position to mock people's hair, retro boy.

Is this what anarchist hairdressers do?

it was meant to say PUNK instead on PINK.

of course punk is much more insulting than pink but like your northern irish guy off catch phrase said "say what you see".

Actually you wanna know what Roy Walker things about bestiality?

"It's good but it's not right"

boom boom!

I tohught it was some sort of wanky internet chatup line.

Yes, punk is quite possibly more insulting than pink, but either way you're wrong. And I've run out of energy for being offensive. So, uhh... fuck you....

aye and you can smell your own!

remember the wee pm to bread and roses?

gotta a love the wee bit of flippant humour at the end there, top quality stuff, show her that your not afraid to look silly whilst also presenting your so hip it hurts postmodern attitude to pop culture.

Oh my god

EDIT: I can't be fucked with this. I'm gonna watch Bad Education in a second or something.

Right... If this at any point descends into another emo vs. hardcore arguement, it's getting holding bayed.

As you were...

Hahahaha!

You are such an arse, and have indeed got me, as Den Watts would say, "bang to rights".

Although he was being a shit...

alan im not even going to comment on the absurdity of your post, I will leave it to others to pick holes in the cracks, alright not so much cracks as big boarding boy arse gapes.

oh alan you do realise that there is a social relationship involved in the production of electricity? and unless i've overlooked some diy electricity sub culture it tends to be produced in an exploitative realtionship and in a process that pollutes land, sea and air.

God, who says you can buy a good education?

Get your facts right about my education or you shouldn't be able to make quips about it. Cos right now, it's like you're attacking someone else, not me.

Yes, but the point is, there isn't an inherent unequal social relationship to pornography, any more so than there is any other line of work or production. Condemning porn just for being porn kinda rules out the idea that porn can exist and not be patriarchal or exploitative. Cos it can, and it does already. As I've said before, there's plenty of DiY stuff out there on the net which is not produced in this way.

As sandwiches and tea bags, I think the point is that any product sold for a profit under capitalism has the same exploitative social relationships behind it as porn. I'm not entirely in agreement, cos that does seem a bit reductionist, but over all I think it pretty much stands.

Because it still doesn't make sense to condemn all porn per se. It just doesn't. Ok, so my boyfriend takes a picture of me masturbating and we put it on our website, where members pay a nominal fee to be able to see it. (This is all hypothetical, before you sart asking for links...) This is still porn, but should it be condemned? I think not. I know you're talking about the mainstream porno industry which obviously does not work on these lines, but there's still plenty of porn out there which is produced like that, and is not inherently bad or in need of condemning.

To be fair, if you read revol's posts he's not trying to make it SG is ok cos a girl helps run it, nor is he saying it "ok" at all.

Oh fuck it. now you're all deleting your posts and making me look like an arse. Screw you, I'm going out

so you didn't go to boarding school?

has my source been lying to me, telling me what i want to hear?

no matter it is beyond doubt that your posh, all those hardcore kids are

oh except choccy though he would punch me if I called him a hardcore kid.

Yeah OK maybe there is some porn out there that's really great in terms of its production and that but I honestly don't think it's a workable line to say to people: "no way does porn suck, check out my DIY lesbian feminist chick queercore blah blah trendy jargon" site cos what porn means to people is The Sport and lesbianpussy.com (and if you're some kinda lame wannabe punk, Suicide Girls). If you get caught up in finding "good" porn then I think you risk further ghettoisation, cos effectively what you're doing, at least as far as I can see, is endorsing obscurantist subcultural alternatives to problems created by patriarchy and capitalism.

That's been the point I've been trying to make for several months, if only someone would listen rather than going for the easier option of constructing a loose strawman from my arguments and battering that to death.

alan that may worded better but it is still fucking retarded.

once again i ask you what about electricity?

surely primitivists would be fair enough criticising electricity considering it's existing mode of production. Surely we are just risking ghettoisation by looking for alternative modes of production and defending electricity on the basis of how it could be used?

of course electricity is just one example.

sorry but you'd be hard up to be cracking one off to the The Sport (the underwear section in a club book is a better bet). And maybe you'd like to tell us that we should condemn communism on the basis of what most people think it is?

Alan give it up, i don't why you insist in being anti porn when it has been demonstrated over and over again that is a ridiculous statement. I mean I have problems with alot of porn (mostly for being repititive and too many shit close ups of penetration), i have serious criticisms of how most pornography is produced but I have the same criticisms to lesser or greater degrees with trainers, computers and television but i would never say I was against any of them.

Obviously anyone, regardless of their viewpoint on technology, is fair enough criticising current usage of electricity. And the analogy does not hold water, since Zobag is not saluting the really great lesbian/feminist/whatever-phrase-they-use-for-supposedly non-exploitative-pornography electricity site she found online, neither is she using it as grounds for an argument that electricity isn't bad. In fact, the only way in which one could draw an analogy between the two would be to suggest what would be needed in order to eradicate the exploitative and oppressive social relationship that is systematic in the respective commodities' production, and that is communist revolution.

I wouldn't exactly know...all I ever see in that paper in Spar is blondes with big tits and a lot of ads for dogging sites.

Were people not arguing against abandoning the term "anarchist" on the libcomm thread?? I remember Gav (possibly inadvertently) likening those who wanted to continue usage of the phrase, despite its obvious negative connortations to Milwall fans: "Noone likes us, we don't care".

And yes, I definitely am pretty wary of calling myself a communist in public. Apart from anything else, it makes me look like a right loner geek and I'd fucking hate to be judged on my politics.

Oi stop that.

I completely agree. I can't see that there is much to be gained by claiming that porn in its current guise is not all that it could be. Pornography since its inception has been 'porne' [latin for prostitute/hure] + 'photography', or images of hures, fallen women. If there is a communist need for titilative imagery it would be something quite different I feel. I have in the scale of things wanked off to quite a lot of porn (I'm 21), but retrospectively I can't think of a single image that I have seen that could be considered to be beyond reproach on the criteria that it derived from a sexist or mysoginist conception of female sexuality or sexuality more generally.

I also think that DIY 'porn' more generally, besides being sub-cultural, and therefore not really all that relevant at all, offers little that does not already conform to these paradigms or norms of what is or is not a titilating image. Oftentimes images are created of acts of masturbation, or of something else that smacks of peepshowesque humiliation, or diminution. Sacrifice. Sin. Conquest. Cyclical behaviour whether deriving from males or females, that demonstrates the one passive, the other active. Either way somebody has to 'play' The Woman and someone The Man.

I can only imagine what will titilate those future inhabitants following the revolution but I feel deeply that it would not include graphic portions of peoples sexual experiences because such will always incorporate a sense that one is 'viewing' what one is being 'offered up'. Perhaps someday people will see sexual pleasure deriving from the love that one sees from the planet and creation, and not deriving from, in such a capitalistic sense, as it does seem to me, of the 'consumption of sin'.

---

As for Zobag viz. Fanon - I quite like Fanon and find his analyses quite useful. As for the wretched of the earth being a pseudo-intellectual scum manifesto I think that's inordinately harsh and redolent of the kind of aspersions cast dogmatism evinced by 'revol' and all the self-congratulatory school boys on this site. Fanon does make, quite clearly, the argument that states are based on class oppression and calls for national liberation not merely from the colonial oppressors but also from their placemen, the local bourgeoisie, feudal oligarchs, and the would-be despots the likes of your Kenyatas et al whom he terms collectively 'the African Big Men'.

The shortcomings of the work are that it is just a large manifesto, or a laying out of a particular credo really and doesn't particularly set out in any great detail what is to be done about the situation, bar the usual 'they did this, the bastards, let's get them!' attitude. That said however it's quite a clarion call to action. However it shouldn't really be read without also reading black skin, white masks which since I read it some years ago has given me a much better understanding of colonial neuroses and of the mental cost of power relations more generally.

okay hands up nick is possibly the finest satirist since wayne.

I mean bringing all those facets of pseudo situationist discourse upon the spectacle of sex, latin semantics, radical feminist and national liberationist thought into one beautifully self knowing piece, surely such writng has been seen since brass eye's paedo special or "Beyond the future".

Nick I toast my next Irn Bru to you.

Dude, if you're going to be pretentious, at least get it right. Pornē (eta ending, not epsilon, jerk) is Greek. And photo- has nothing to do with it; -graphy in itself expresses the use of images.

.... man, I am such a wanker.

No way Grace, blatantly the funiest post on the thread.