Animal Liberation as a tool against Capitalism

The thing most people miss, on here to, when people discuss animal abuse and the Holocaust isnt saying 'Jews are pigs in American factory farms', or when they compare the circus to slavery they arn't saying 'black people in America are descendants of circus elephants'. What they are saying though is the mindset that gives rise to institutional and bureaucratic mass murder and racism is a mindset deeply embeeded in dehumanising the people involved. Another factor is that the systems used in the Holocaust, technically, is exceedingly similar to the systems used on modern factory farms- including language, whether Himmler (I think) was a ex chicken farmer or not is not of much importance, but what is of importance is the framework, backed up by the mindset that allows such horrendous abuse to go on. In my fluffy liberal viewing of animals in a compassionate sense, a monkey in a vivisection lab suffers as readily as a human does in the same or similar situation, only someone wishing to distort what is being said would see this as saying a monkey is a tortured human, a human suffering is thus negilable.

Yet if we stop seeing animals as mere commodities, not even living, but like a rock or book, and as the fasinating critters they can be (watching chickens that have been freeded from battery cages and walk about, peck, dust bath and sit with their eggs is great), but until we stop having animals as mere commodities, there will always be the ways to dehumanisae people by relating them to animals- relating them to commodities.

A short overview of these ideas is here:

http://www.eternaltreblinka.com/overview.html

The book Eternal Treblinka is excellent on this (here is the site for it http://www.eternaltreblinka.com/) and for anyone who has it here (which I doubt will be many) the book 'terrorists or freedom fighters? Reflections on the liberation of animals' has a great article in it by a descendant of Holocaust surviviours who is an AR campaigner, in the article he expands much more on what I just said. The now deceased author and Holocaust survivior Issac Singer also wrote, mostly fiction, on the Holocaust and animal abuse, his stuff is also of interest.

Lone Wolf wrote:

LW, are you saying then that meat-eating is inextricably tied up in the creation of hierarchy in human societies? Is it your contention that there are no kinds of different ways in which people may make use of animals and that whether it's factory farming or old fashioned non-commercial organic smallholding it's all the same?

Without much success it seems, I have tried to make the point - as have others - that ar activism is neither here nor there with regard to the revolutionary struggle. Only demonstrating that only a veganic society could be a free society and that we must prefigure that society in our contemporary organisation and activism could make ar, in itself, relevant to the wider struggle against capitalism & I don't see how that can be demonstrated. Moreover, the attempt to tie veganism and ar up in the revolutionary project is potentially massively alienating for millions - if not billions - of people, including the folks on libcom who do not begin to see how animals can be liberated.

I believe that happier and freer people treat animals in more ethical and ecological ways, not least because to do so is less brutalising to the people involved, but also because the outcomes from such an approach to animal husbandry are so much better.

Youv'e missed the point again, totally. It isnt about saying a dead Jew, or socialist or disabled person is a pig or chicken or goat, its about analysing and seeking ways to undermine and destory this form of thinking that gives rise to mass animal and human abuse.

Why, EF! Have done some great stuff, why sneer at them? Criticise them all you want, but dont be like a prick standing on the edge flicking pennies at people and laughing.

Another major distortion, no doubt brought up by total lack of any form of engagement with AR activists in a real sense i.e. Not through media. Every single AR activist ive met, and it is a few, have been interested- indeed worked in- human struggles as well, they may not be full blown members of the anarcho club, but then does that limit what they do? No one I have met has said (in a simplistic way) 'look fuck humans, animals all the way'. And lay with the 'bourgeois ideology', it has a whiff of Leninism.

Its not damaging, AR works for AR, left political activity works on socio-economic lines for humans. I see no reason why someone cant be involved in both, and we dont need to wait for communism to arrive to sort things out- another whiff of Leninism. Infact from some of the people on here in some past talks ive seen a view towards animals and the enviroment exactly the same as capitalists or state communists, with differing ideological backgrounds- a view basically as we can do what we want with it. Im all for people who discuss communist action/ethics and the enviroment, such as Bookchin did, but for people like you to sit there and say 'nah lets wait for communism to arrive, then sort it out', dosent really wash.

The first bit, about people treating animals better if they feel better isnt that correct. Many people harm animals, usually pets, as a way to 'express' their anger and hate, but they dont then go and beat people up, the idea that harming animals can lead to harming humans dosen't really work.

Secondly, the best outcomes from any form of animal husbandry is the factory farm, thats why its there. If you wished to have a communist society with a large % of meat eating and animal product consumption you would need to be able to supply this demand, and it seems animal welfare and concerns will not come into it, and if they did, then maybe people wouldn't eat them in the first place, going back to people treating animals in a better way.

Well, its not hard:

I can't even believe this is a topic of discussion.

Hi

Nothing’s wrong with it. I’m not advocating its overthrow because it’s “wrong”, but because it’s deadly dull and poorly paid.

Love

LR

When they slowly retreat from it and we will say no more.

Hi

It’s not that far fetched. Larry Law’s “Spectacular Times” series, which includes the dreadful “Animals” pamphlet, is well respected even by the likes of Openly Classist’s personnel. Even amongst the non-animalist factions there are an above average number of vegetarians due to the demography and psychological predisposition of those drawn to the milieu.

Love

LR

ToJ, dont try to debate with LR, you'll waste precious time. Rumor has it that they are actually a top secret joint FBI/CIA/M15 project to anger, burn out and most importantly waste the time of dedicated and sincere political activists. How many agents is LR made up of? Who knows (well maybe Lobster do).

Hi

Ian Bone said so.

Love

LR

Hi

It has happened actually (well not so much a bridge, more of a table). This thread is going great.

Love

LR

Parrot with a sense of humour and past/present/future tenses

I was expecting the Parrot Sketch. Now I'm disappointed.

i do apologise comrade, and it (kinda) helps the AR lot

Joseph K: The thinking parrot's man.

hmmmm, i'll think about it. or ask the parrot.

The thinking man's parrot?

ffs, i need to confer with the parrot ok? what does an idiot parrot's thinker know?

Power.. wrote

That is crap. I'm not talking about profitability for industrial systems, I'm talking about quality, satisfaction and positive ecological impacts. Now I suggest that unless you are familiar with both industrial and organic/ecological animal husbandry you are not all that qualified to comment on best outcomes.

I don't want this and never said that I did - now who's building straw men? In general people need to eat less meat; the best solutions for sustainable land use and food production would revolve around rearing smaller numbers of healthier animals. What I would suggest (again) is that it is not up to you to decide whether people in a free society eat meat or use animal products; it may be appropriate for you to make certain ecological and ethical arguments about the way in which people farm but stretching that to an essentially theological argument about so-called animal rights would be mistaking your own faith for something central to the liberatory project.

Tell me then how to meet the demands for billions of meat eaters could occur in a way that is both ecologcially sustainable and ALSO (vitally) dosent harm the animal. It wont work on the sheer fact your killing them for a start. Second, hundreds of billions of animals are killed each year to satisfy human hunger, how would this work in, i'll say again, a ecologically sound and non-animal harming way? It won't although if you can please grace me with your wisdom on humane, non-killing meat consumption in a communist society.

I differ alot from what you say, I say no meat consumption at all is needed, not less, not on Sunday, none, and I have frequently stated my views why. Of all dietary choices it seems that meat, dairy and egg is the worst of for enviromental usage, in a communist society you- may- be able to alter the conditions that give rise to mass wastage in the industrialised West, while mass starvation occurs worldwide, but you cannot fix the fact that the high level demand for animal products, including flesh, is totally unsustainable in any balanced ecological way. Unless you are saying everyone would do a form of permaculutre and rear and kill their own chickens, cows, pigs and fish, your going to have to have industrialised forms of mass raising and killing, and this is neither ecologically sustainable, nor in any way ethical.

AR is integral part of my politics to be honest, and vegan issues generally. Seen too much and been involved in too many animal abuse issues that its difficult to turn away.

The way i see it capitalism causes a lot of social problems one of which is industrial animal abuse. Millions of people see the animal abuse and revolutionaries should be able to take that legitimate concern and give anti-capitalist view point of the origins and the economics of why industrial animal abuse takes place. Thats what i see as the strongest "hook" of animal abuse as a single issue into revolutionary class politics.

Well you see Power I am not suggesting that no animals will be killed; I would have thought it fairly obvious that animals will be killed as long as people keep any domesticated animals or manage animal populations at all. I don't have a problem with that. I do believe that reduced consumption of meat in the rich countries of the world is essential and I also believe that a Permacultural model of food production is the way forward - more small utility breeds, more micro-livestock, more ecological and definitely ethical systems of production.

As it happens I work in organic farming, hold a diploma in Permaculture design and, although chiefly a gardener, have reared and cared for animals on numerous occasions.

I think it is fairly likely that were you and I to discuss ecological issues without the demand for an entirely vegan future we could find quite a lot of common ground. The fundamental difference is that I do not see the overriding need to impose veganism on people in order to achieve sustainability and liberty, on the contrary it seems to me that animal husbandry can in some situations be indispensable and in others beneficial as a strategy for human prosperity. I believe that vegan arguments are weak philosophically and ecologically; I believe that they often depend on claiming that animal husbandry is always brutal and industrial, and suffer from basic ignorance of land management and landscape history.

Beyond all of that, you demand compliance with your diet, I do not demand that you should join me in lacto-vegetarianism, or that we should all eat meat.

Here's the bare facts Power: animals eat other animals, it happens. This statement is not a justification for factory farming, battery houses, hormone-laced diets or live animal transport, it is just the simplest ecology. Domesticated livestock have co-evolved with human beings during an era in which our species has manged to exterminate most of the wild mega-fauna that we once shared the world with; the balance thus struck is a delicate one and whilst over-stocking and poor practice can be disastrous, the absence of livestock altogether can be equally negative.

Good for you. I am vegan, doing a degree in ecology and grow roughly 40% (wanna make it above 50% this year) of my own food, I also help in 2 local enviromental groups. Its all fun really.

I differ from you in the ethical sense, and the considerations that would go into mass consumption of animals without having a factory farm system, unless everyone killed 'their own' animals it would face some serious problems.

I deffinately want to see a vegan society with the removal of animals commodity status, sure, I also want to see many, many things change, but it depends on how this is worked towards.

And? Penguins nick other penguins babys, male lions kill other male lions cubs, there is cases of rape in many primates, yet people usually dont go around supporting baby kidnap, infanticide or rape because other animals do it. I thought one major thing that seperated humans from other animals is the ability to form and develop chorent theoires and put this in practice, based on experience. This dosent mean that humans are superior to animals, hey we also cant go for food without 4 months like penguins can, hear with our feet like elephants, run like a cheetah or (many people dont) stay together for life as many bird couples do, my AR reasoning is based on sentience, the biological, physiological and neurological basis we ALL share- mammels, birds, many fish and some complex crustacians. I dont think animals should be a mere commodity for human usage and abuse, in a capitalist, state communist or communist society, and that is where we differ.

I was dealing with what you are saying. You are saying that once people reject empathy with animal suffering it is a slippery slope to rejecting empathy with human suffering by way of de-humanising certain groups of humans and treating the same as you would an animal. And I get the impression that you imply that working people embracing a sensitivity to animals on a larger scale would enhance human-human empathy on a larger scale. Clearly this is bollocks coz there is no one-to-one relationship between a person's politics and a concern for animal well-being.

As I remember he did tell people to vote in elections.

I found this on Wiki, but I have a feeling that Class War may have stood in elections in the 90's too.

Devrim

Hi

Moreover, we both advise people to stand in them if it floats their boat. We're such a couple radical liberals it hurts. It really does.

Contemporary anarchist analysis in a nutshell. Useless, and very attractive to the same bleeding hearts drawn to animal rightism.

Love

LR