Animal Liberation as a tool against Capitalism

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daniel
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Jan 14 2007 18:54

Interesting food for thought (going along well with Himmler quote) - Hitler was a vegetarian.
We relate to animals in pain out of pity. what (I think) Lazy Riser was getting at was that this pitying-mindset seems pretty common amongst activist-types. This leads to Bono-Geldof "save little starving kids in Africa" stunts. Rather than relating to other people, and feeling solidarity, it becomes a power relationship based on pity.
The point is - I share common interests with, say, working class Iraqis, because I don't want the problems of wartime and because I know that we have shared interests. I can also relate to them. I don't pity them, I don't know any Iraqis, never been there. But I share common experience and common humanity and common interests with them. Thats human solidarity.
With animals its different. I pity them when they're being hurt - they're passive. I think it's too bad, all that unnecessary suffering. But I share no experiences, no interests, no nothing with them - we're different species, right? Most importantly, they are passive and powerless. Its up to our personal decisions what to do - its a one-way negotiation. That's why "animal rights" are a joke.

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Jan 14 2007 19:28
jason wrote:
You are saying that once people reject empathy with animal suffering it is a slippery slope to rejecting empathy with human suffering by way of de-humanising certain groups of humans and treating the same as you would an animal. And I get the impression that you imply that working people embracing a sensitivity to animals on a larger scale would enhance human-human empathy on a larger scale.

Not exactly. Making working-class people (and anarcho-communists) face their desensitized apprehension of animals seems to me like a good first step in making them face their desensitized apprehension of other people, who could be their allies in the class struggle.

Now let's get back to Herr Himmler:

Heinrich Himmler wrote:
How can you find pleasure in shooting from behind cover at poor creatures [?] ... It's really pure murder. Nature is so marvelously beautiful, and every animal has a right to live.

Did he really have no empathy towards Jews and Gypsies? In fact, look at another of his quotes:

Heinrich Himmler wrote:
...It is one of those things which is easy to say. 'The Jewish race is to be exterminated,' says every party member. 'That's clear, it's part of our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, right, we'll do it.' And then they all come along, the eighty million good Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are swine, but this one is a first-class Jew. Of all those who talk like this, not one has watched, not one has stood up to it. Most of you know what it means to see a hundred corpses lying together, five hundred, or a thousand. To have gone through this and yet - apart from a few exceptions, examples of human weakness - to have remained decent fellows, this is what has made us hard.

Himmler did have "empathy" towards Jews, as he'd expect anyone to have. But it was a kind of empathy that had to be fought against to do what is right. It is not that he had empathy for animals, but not for humans.

This does make me wonder, though. Maybe the word "empathy" isn't exactly what I mean as a positive necessity, here. Rightious indignation at hardships, perhaps? Something more moral than plainly immediate. I am unsure.

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Jan 14 2007 19:40
daniel wrote:
The point is - I share common interests with, say, working class Iraqis, because I don't want the problems of wartime and because I know that we have shared interests. I can also relate to them. I don't pity them, I don't know any Iraqis, never been there. But I share common experience and common humanity and common interests with them. Thats human solidarity.

Why do you feel that you share a common experience with working class Iraqis, and not with, say, load-beasts?

daniel wrote:
With animals its different. I pity them when they're being hurt - they're passive. I think it's too bad, all that unnecessary suffering. But I share no experiences, no interests, no nothing with them - we're different species, right?

You have a different skin-color and probably physiognomy than working-class Chinese. They probably express their suffering in a different way than you. Why are they closer in experience to you than oxen pulling a plow?

daniel wrote:
Most importantly, they are passive and powerless. Its up to our personal decisions what to do - its a one-way negotiation.

Social contract theory is bourgeois hogwash.

More to the point, it is not just up to our personal decisions, but to our collective decisions, as well. My turning vegan won't, by itself, stop industrial slaughter.

Passive and powerless they may be, but so are many humans. Suppose someone was fighting to liberate low-functionality Downs syndrome human beings from a slaughter-house. Would you still be singing the same "personal decision," "one-way negotiation" tune? Why don't you eat the non-functional mentally retarded, the brain-dead, the muscle-atrophied? Why can't I eat a Hawking-burger? I mean, his theory is shit lately, anyway. He's of no further use to humanity, or to the revolution.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 14 2007 19:43
Quote:
Interesting food for thought (going along well with Himmler quote) - Hitler was a vegetarian.

No he wasen't. He ate a diet high in veggies to stop a stomach upset, it was one of many diets he tried to cure it. One of his favourite treats in his mountain retreats was a traditional German sausage.

But why would it matter if he was? Do you hear veggies saying well look Ted Bundy was a meat eater?

Quote:
We relate to animals in pain out of pity. what (I think) Lazy Riser was getting at was that this pitying-mindset seems pretty common amongst activist-types. This leads to Bono-Geldof "save little starving kids in Africa" stunts. Rather than relating to other people, and feeling solidarity, it becomes a power relationship based on pity.

No it isnt. LR talks balls, and he knows that to. The point isnt being patronising like Madonna or Geldolf, its about understanding and deconstructing the power relations (as you mention), but power relations inherent in causing mass suffering and harm, regardless of what you or LR say I am involved in politics and AR for many reasons, one is I dont like to see suffering and pain, hey it may not be as hard as economic determinism but then that shouldnt bother you hey?

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 14 2007 19:45
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With animals its different. I pity them when they're being hurt - they're passive. I think it's too bad, all that unnecessary suffering. But I share no experiences, no interests, no nothing with them - we're different species, right?

You share one major, major thing with near all animals- sentience. Unless you arnt part of the mammalian group then you will have near exactly the same biochemical, neurological and physiological constructs as you, leading to pain and suffering being felt in exactly the same way, this is nothing new, its been noted scientifically since the early 19th century.

'I pity them', leave the patronising shite out please.

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Jan 14 2007 19:49
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revol68 wrote:
well the fact i'm quite capable of opposing racism, sexism, nationalism, homophobia and yet not really give two fucks about chickens would suggest this thread is a bucket of shite and just the same tired crap that seeks to hang animal rights onto class struggle.

i only really care about how chickens are raised as a result of self interest. Chickens raised in healthier enviroments(treated better) naturaly make for a safer chicken to consume. So in a way, giving two fucks about chickens can help you out.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 14 2007 19:51
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i only really care about how chickens are raised as a result of self interest. Chickens raised in healthier enviroments(treated better) naturaly make for a safer chicken to consume. So in a way, giving two fucks about chickens can help you out.

And how many times have I said speciesm runs deep in society roll eyes

BTW what you said is also rubbish, even 'organic' chickens have been found to have antibiotics in their corpses and the stress produced at transportation and slaughter also alters hormones in the body. So rather than eating chicken it would do you better to get some reading in.

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Jan 14 2007 20:21
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Why do you feel that you share a common experience with working class Iraqis, and not with, say, load-beasts?

Well, cause I'm not a bloody donkey. I want the same basic things as most Iraqis (security, freedom, food, housing, community, etc.) and not donkeys (hay, water, large pastures, no flies).

Quote:
You have a different skin-color and probably physiognomy than working-class Chinese. They probably express their suffering in a different way than you. Why are they closer in experience to you than oxen pulling a plow?

Bollocks. The tiny differences in how we look doesn't alter the fact that we've got genes more than 99% the same.

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Social contract theory is bourgeois hogwash.

Um, yeah. What are you on about?

Quote:
Passive and powerless they may be, but so are many humans. Suppose someone was fighting to liberate low-functionality Downs syndrome human beings from a slaughter-house.

You seem to think liberation is something to do with lobbing bricks and getting chased by cops. humans change the environment around them to suit their own needs. animals adopt to (or die from) the environment around them. it seems unlikely that animals in a factory farm can imagine anything else. humans can change the world around them. antelope can't get together and decide to destroy the herd-power dynamic, humans can get together and decide to do something about, say, capitalism.

PS I realise Lazy Riser is taking the piss, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

Blacknred Ned
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Jan 14 2007 20:27

power... wrote:

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even 'organic' chickens have been found to have antibiotics in their corpses and the stress produced at transportation and slaughter

That is a weak argument. I have kept chickens and reared them from hatchlings; they were not treated with antibiotics! Your implied criticism of some "organic" chicken is well founded but it cannot be used as an argument for not eating chicken because very many people would advocate an entirely different - small scale, local & permacultural - way of animal husbandry.

We can remove all of the excesses of commercial animal rearing and still be left with meat eating, the use of animals for draft and other animal products. Indeed the presence of livestock in sustainable land use is often highly beneficial to the land and to the people who farm it. Please see my earlier post along these lines and also bear in mind examples of farming systems such as rice cultivation in which fish and foul produced along side traditional paddy rice-growing provide vital protein to dense rural populations.

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Jan 14 2007 20:34
daniel wrote:
PS I realise Lazy Riser is taking the piss, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

Now you've done it!

He'll be talking about this for weeks. I hope you're proud of yourself. angry

And BnR Ned, are you referring to FOWL?

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 14 2007 20:45

BnR you havent answered my question:

If everyone was not willing to raise and slaughter all their own animals there would either have to be a 'travelling slaughterman' or a form of mass industrialised slaughter.

Anyway, why am I involved in arguing forms of animal killing, just let the chickens be!

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 14 2007 20:52
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You seem to think liberation is something to do with lobbing bricks and getting chased by cops

Of course it is, what do you think it is?

Or even better, lobbing bricks at veggies for being secret Hitlerites.

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Jan 14 2007 20:57
powertotheimagination wrote:
BnR you havent answered my question:

If everyone was not willing to raise and slaughter all their own animals there would either have to be a 'travelling slaughterman' or a form of mass industrialised slaughter.

Anyway, why am I involved in arguing forms of animal killing, just let the chickens be!

Animal rightists do really go on to the point of tedium. I greatly admire Ned for staying with this discusion. It is not enough for people to admit that animals shouldn't be treated badly. They have to insit that it is connected to class struggle, which is plainly stupid.

I will be in London at some point in the Spring, and if anyone on Libcom has a problem killing their chickens, I would like to offer my services as your friendly communist
'travelling slaughterman', and will personally come round and kill your chickens for you.

Devrim

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 14 2007 21:36

Devrim I personally wasent asking you, unless your BnR.

I dont explictly link class struggle and AR, some do, so what?

Also tedium isnt something solely for AR people, we arnt the only ones who get pissed of when people dont answer our questions.

Although as your found of your odd long static shite post, would you like to give some reason as to why you wish to the be 'travelling slaughterman?'

Blacknred Ned
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Jan 14 2007 22:15

Refused wrote:

Quote:
And BnR Ned, are you referring to FOWL?

Errm, yes fowl. It's been a long weekend. What a dick! Sorry.

And no Power there would not have to be industrial slaughter anymore than there would have to be travelling slaughtermen. Of old villages had butchers and no long distance transport of animals. Personally I reckon that people who eat meat should know the ins and outs of the process. I read (and enjoyed) John Seymour's self-sufficiency for this very reason.

Dev, one day I will certainly invite you to come and eat with me and my family and - if there is one going we will give an honourable send off to a spare cockerel. Habitually I am a vegetarian but in the past I have made exceptions for livestock I have reared; I have no doubt that I will do so again. A male bird that has had the run of an orchard and known a natural life would in all likelihood be predated by a fox if not by me.

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Jan 14 2007 22:21
powertotheimagination wrote:

And how many times have I said speciesm runs deep in society roll eyes

BTW what you said is also rubbish, even 'organic' chickens have been found to have antibiotics in their corpses and the stress produced at transportation and slaughter also alters hormones in the body. So rather than eating chicken it would do you better to get some reading in.

Chicken tastes good, and my speciest ass is going to continue eating them. I made no mention of "organic" either. In america thats just a poor standard of food quality that some farms go through the motions for so they can put that on their packaging. Foods free of man-made chemicles are also a dream to far away to realize. I can go deep into the woods where I live (montana) and pick naturally growing fruits and they still won't be free of man-made chemicals (due to fire-fighting powders dropped from helicopters throughout the whole area). You make an awfull lot of assumptions in your post about my knowledge of food. If you read my post you will see that I didn't say anything about "organic" chicken. I only said that one can get "safer" chicken to consume, not completly safe(no meat can and never will be completly safe to consume, same with plants also, so just calm down a little will yea?

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Jan 14 2007 22:37
Quote:
powertotheimagination wrote:
And how many times have I said speciesm runs deep in society

Let me get this all clear powertotheimagination. Is eating another species what makes me a speciest? If so then I imagine you would also be (plants, microbes, fungus, ect.). But if it is in regards to how my concern for chickens is only because of self-interest, will then, i guess you caught me. smile

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Jan 14 2007 22:52
bozemananarchy wrote:
... my concern for chickens is only because of self-interest...

I'd like to remind you that a communist revolution isn't very likely to happen anytime soon.
If you're guided by self-interest, I suggest that you quit the commie milieux and get an MBA.

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Jan 15 2007 00:59
tojiah wrote:

I'd like to remind you that a communist revolution isn't very likely to happen anytime soon.

Its not? sad Then maybe I should just give up on working class lib, and focus on the more immediate and ever important goal of animal lib, right? eek Afterall, as soon as the animals are liberated, the workers liberation can't be to far off.

sarcasm

Quote:
If you're guided by self-interest, I suggest that you quit the commie milieux and get an MBA.

So when it comes to food, i'm guilded by self-interest (i like it tasty, as non-poisoness as possible, and within my diety guidelines{i don't eat humans, or most types of shell-fish}). I'm not sure I see the problem with that. You must have just gotten all excited when I mentioned that I eat meat, and you went ahead and took what I said about my self-interest in the realm of food, and applied it to my larger political philosophy in a really poor attempt to discredit me as an anarchist. I'm not really going to consider your suggestion (quiting the communist milieux), but thanks anyway.

Whats an MBA? I really don't know, just let me in on it please.

One thing you should consider about communism however is that self-interest won't elimanated (or even be an entirely negative thing) in a communist society. It would still exist, it simply has a different outcome on society, as opposed to some out-comes as a result of in a capatilist society. Take this example of how self-interest could benifit a communist society:

In a small commune, a young worker is tired of having to deal with the community mule (who is stubbon and smelly) which is used to grind corn at the local mill into meal. In his own "self-interest" he seeks a local expert on wind power and with her help draws up plans for a wind powered corn grinder and presents the design to their fellow communards (whom will be needed to aid in its construciton) and asks for the needed aid. Is this young worker no longer a real communard because self-interest guided him to action to reduce the work load (in the long term of course, not immediatly) of himself (gasp!) and of the whole community?

And consider how self-interest sometimes works in our current capatilist society:

In a small town, a young man wishes not to toil in the mine like his father, and seeks a life free of hard labor. He concentrates on his studies and does fantastic. He gets a scholarship and recieves his education. His degree gets him the "in" on a high paying job. Naturally he accumlates capital with his wages and subsequent investments(which really did well for him), and is soon ready to purchase a business. He does this out of self-interest (he wishes not to toil for anyone but to have people toil for him instead.) It so happens he likes his home town and wishes to stay. So he purchases the mine in which his father toils in unsafe conditions. The wage his father earns is far below what he and his fellows actually produces, the amount of control his father has over his workplace is next to none, and the recent death of a close friend due to unsafe conditions in the mine all set his father to thinking about his condition. Soon his father realizes this is not how it should be, and sets to organizing the workers to fight for a better life. Self-interest of course still guilds his son and he is no fool. He realizes that when workers want what is rightfully theirs he can no longer be the idle vactioneer that he is. So he sets to busting up the union drive, and as result also gets his fathers head busted

This is an example (albeit sensationalized) of how self interest can tend to function in a capatilist society. You should note however, that the idle vactioneers' fathers' union drive was partly driven by self-interest also(it was an interest to better his own life by working together with his mates)

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Jan 15 2007 01:01
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You have a different skin-color and probably physiognomy than working-class Chinese. They probably express their suffering in a different way than you. Why are they closer in experience to you than oxen pulling a plow?

This is the best argument ever against the nonsense that is animal rights!

Fuck me I couldn't have made that shit up as slander.

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Jan 15 2007 01:26

Hi

Quote:
If you're guided by self-interest, I suggest that you quit the commie milieux and get an MBA.

Not great advice, but certainly better than taking up a general position "against suffering" or whatever it is that motivates the sentience worshipers.

Love

LR

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Jan 15 2007 01:30
bozemananarchy wrote:
Its not? sad Then maybe I should just give up on working class lib, and focus on the more immediate and ever important goal of animal lib, right? eek Afterall, as soon as the animals are liberated, the workers liberation can't be to far off.

There's this thing they use to ward off crows. I believe it's called... a straw man!

bozemananarchy wrote:
sarcasm
Quote:
If you're guided by self-interest, I suggest that you quit the commie milieux and get an MBA.

So when it comes to food, i'm guilded by self-interest (i like it tasty, as non-poisoness as possible, and within my diety guidelines{i don't eat humans, or most types of shell-fish}). I'm not sure I see the problem with that. You must have just gotten all excited when I mentioned that I eat meat, and you went ahead and took what I said about my self-interest in the realm of food, and applied it to my larger political philosophy in a really poor attempt to discredit me as an anarchist.
...
One thing you should consider about communism however is that self-interest won't elimanated (or even be an entirely negative thing) in a communist society. It would still exist, it simply has a different outcome on society, as opposed to some out-comes as a result of in a capatilist society. Take this example of how self-interest could benifit a communist society:

In a small commune, a young worker is tired of having to deal with the community mule (who is stubbon and smelly) which is used to grind corn at the local mill into meal. In his own "self-interest" he seeks a local expert on wind power and with her help draws up plans for a wind powered corn grinder and presents the design to their fellow communards (whom will be needed to aid in its construciton) and asks for the needed aid. Is this young worker no longer a real communard because self-interest guided him to action to reduce the work load (in the long term of course, not immediatly) of himself (gasp!) and of the whole community?

And consider how self-interest sometimes works in our current capatilist society:

In a small town, a young man wishes not to toil in the mine like his father, and seeks a life free of hard labor. He concentrates on his studies and does fantastic. He gets a scholarship and recieves his education. His degree gets him the "in" on a high paying job. Naturally he accumlates capital with his wages and subsequent investments(which really did well for him), and is soon ready to purchase a business. He does this out of self-interest (he wishes not to toil for anyone but to have people toil for him instead.) It so happens he likes his home town and wishes to stay. So he purchases the mine in which his father toils in unsafe conditions. The wage his father earns is far below what he and his fellows actually produces, the amount of control his father has over his workplace is next to none, and the recent death of a close friend due to unsafe conditions in the mine all set his father to thinking about his condition. Soon his father realizes this is not how it should be, and sets to organizing the workers to fight for a better life. Self-interest of course still guilds his son and he is no fool. He realizes that when workers want what is rightfully theirs he can no longer be the idle vactioneer that he is. So he sets to busting up the union drive, and as result also gets his fathers head busted

This is an example (albeit sensationalized) of how self interest can tend to function in a capatilist society. You should note however, that the idle vactioneers' fathers' union drive was partly driven by self-interest also(it was an interest to better his own life by working together with his mates)

And this is your way of showing how I misrepresented your views? Chapeau, comrade.

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Jan 15 2007 01:32

treeofjudas your post about chinese people and oxes has discredited you for eternity in my eyes. I believe you said you are a post grad, I'd be interested in knowing what Micky Mouse university would admit someone as intellectually challenged as your good self?

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Jan 15 2007 01:41

Hi

I assume all contemporary animalists are familiar with the B&B pamphlet "Animal Liberation: A Case of Moral indignation?", republished as "...Devastatingly Liberal", at the link below...

http://anarchy.org.au/?page_id=12

Maybe it should be added to our library.

Love

LR

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Jan 15 2007 02:32
revol68 wrote:
treeofjudas your post about chinese people and oxes has discredited you for eternity in my eyes.

Excuse me while I retire to weep in agony... Done.

revol68 wrote:
I believe you said you are a post grad, I'd be interested in knowing what Micky Mouse university would admit someone as intellectually challenged as your good self?

Um.. actually, I said that I dropped out of graduate school. Which does, technically, make me post grad, but only in the way that Lyotard is post modern.

Anyway, I stand by my argument, discredited though it is. I wonder if you're going to come around to actually dealing with it, rather than just acting like our simian second-cousins and flinging your offal at me.

I still want to know why you refuse to show solidarity to oxen forced to pull a plow, all the while denying me my tasty Hawking-burger.

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Jan 15 2007 02:36

if i send you some links to Chinese folks blogs, to chinese love poems, music, theatre, film, memorial pages to dead friends and family, to chinese politics and history, will you send me some by Oxen?

The fact that I have to even begin to list only a miniscule of things that making it perfectly clear I have more in common with chinese people than ox is beyond the surreal.

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Jan 15 2007 02:41
revol68 wrote:
if i send you some links to Chinese folks blogs, to chinese love poems, music, theatre, film, memorial pages to dead friends and family, to chinese politics and history, will you send me some by Oxen?

Okay, fine, Hawking is all musical what with his mechanical voice and whatnot. So when can I have my Downsburger, then?

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Jan 15 2007 02:43

I'm beginning to think oxen are smarter than you.

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Jan 15 2007 02:47
revol68 wrote:
I'm beginning to think oxen are smarter than you.

Must be the hour. What are you doing up this late? I'm unemployed, I can afford to.

Wait, does that mean that I can't count on you for solidarity in my workplace struggles? That's a shame. sad

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Jan 15 2007 04:29
bozemananarchy wrote:
Its not? sad Then maybe I should just give up on working class lib, and focus on the more immediate and ever important goal of animal lib, right? eek Afterall, as soon as the animals are liberated, the workers liberation can't be to far off.

sarcasm

tojiah wrote:
There's this thing they use to ward off crows. I believe it's called... a straw man!

that was just me giving you some shit back after your snoody suggestion that I give up on working class liberation. more of a joke, than a half-assed strawman argument against animal lib.

tojiah wrote:
And this is your way of showing how I misrepresented your views? Chapeau, comrade.

umm, the first paragraph was. The rest was more of an explanation of how self-interest can have a different affect on society in different economic systems. If you read it again, i'm sure you'll see it in there.