Being pro-independence

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Nick Durie
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Apr 27 2005 21:24
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yeah lazlo your right but i think in terms of palestine the continued israeli occupation derails the development of class struggle and serves to cement cross class collaboration, as in the current climate the face of the "boss" is the IDF. Saying that, it is utterly niave to think that any Palestinian state would be able or willing to deal with the needs, and desires of the palestinian proletariat, and would essentially be a jumped up street gang. Therefore the withdrawal of the IDF would be a substantial step in deconstructing cross class collaboration, and would show up not only the PA but reactionary scum like Hamas for what they really are. It's kinda like how with the ceasefire the IRA are now seen as a bunch of jumped up hoods who think they own whole communities, in the past their shit was tolerated on the basis of them providing some form of defense against loyalists etc. Likewise most working class prods have absolutely no time for the UVF or UDA.

I completely agree with this analysis. Weird to read you actually talking sense.

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Of course the end of the IDF occupation in Gaza and the West Bank is of absolutely no significance to Scottish independence, and only a desperate arsehole would attempt to use it as an example as to why independence is a step forward

fuck you and your straw men revol. I _wasn't_ saying it was significant.

I was actually countering the implicit assertion within cartwheel's post that political developments don't matter.

Let's be clear I don't think the Palestinian situation has many parallels with the Scottish one (the last time it was in any way comparable was 700 hundred years ago - forty generations!), and I don't think what happens in Palestine/Israel is of much consquence to arguments for, or against an independent Scotland.

My point was that, were an independent Scotland to arise, it would be a significant political development, which changed situations here and abroad quite radically, that it would not be 'an irrelevance' as cartwheels suggested. On your terms, just to take a fucking example, it would be far from irrelevant because it would be a completely retrogressive development for the class struggle in Scotland and the UK.

Awa tae Freuchie and fry mice!

thaw
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May 7 2005 22:51

I see that revol continues to be a jumped up parvenu unionist with a lack of vision in terms of imperialism. Oh, well, C'es la vie.

Joe

thaw
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May 7 2005 23:13

wink

Stopped you in your tracks.

Rift valley

ssplibertarian
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Jun 24 2005 13:12

Scottish independence would be a significant gain for the working class not only of Scotland but of England, Wales and N. Ireland. Independence for Scotland is only really possible if brought about by the struggle of the Scottish working class as it runs totally counter to the interests of the Great British Bourgouisie. There is really no 'independent' Scottish bourgoisie which supports independence which is why the SNP are on a hiding to nothing. The breaking up of the imperialist British state would massively weaken state power to gain of the working class throughout the 'british Isles'. red star

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 13:25

is that you tommy?

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 13:41

i'm scottish, i'd much rather go horizontal with the class than vertical with the nation any day of the week, although i can see why so many would choose the vertical route, hence the appeal of studying nationalism

thaw
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Jun 24 2005 20:01

Well, well.

My thoughts.

I do think that the break up of the British State would be a step forward. For this reason, it will be mercilessly fought if coming close.

Imagine the implications for The North (of Ireland), the British imperial regiments, nuclear capability etc.

The UK is the US's key ally, Scotland is the weakest link.

Goodbye.

\ps Also may I say one more thing, humour was used to denigrate the Irish MANY MOONS AGO. i m sure this will also apply to the Scots, especially as we had a differnt social order.

As i say (as much more clever than you bourgoisie), we will overcome.

|Ha

thaw
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Jun 24 2005 20:46

Hello people, any thoughts to submit?

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 21:02
revol68 wrote:
oh the hilarity that is nationalism, oh the pure surreality that is Scottish nationalism and the comic tradegy that is Irish nationalism.

why pick out individual nationalisms for ridicule as though they're are good nationalisms and bad nationalisms?

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 21:19

all power to the british state eh, british anarchists for british anarchism

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 21:38

oops, forgot to put the usual disclaimer on that one, you know jokes and stuff, remember humour?

"Does not supporting the break up of the former yugoslavia mean that your supporting Serbian nationalism"

but, eh? is it me or is that worded a bit weird?

if "one" didn't support the break up of former yugo, you're saying that translates to "one" supporting nationalism?

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 21:51

i dunno, i see greater serbian as fairly different from yugoslavian or whatever the intellects call it, overlaps yeah but fairly simplistic view of it, certainly in terms of the la longue duree, imo

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 22:00

if only tito were still with us eh

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 22:19
revol68 wrote:
yes you see thats my point! Croat and Bosnian nationalists would argue that to not support their "national liberation" would be to support serbian nationalism by default! It's simplistic shite but its on the same level as not supporting Irish national liberation (in Northern Ireland) is de facto support for British Imperialism.

but wait a minute, your equating serbian nationalism to british imperialism here, that anaology as discussed above doesn't work confused

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 22:24
revol68 wrote:
fuck are you thick?

roll eyes

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 22:26

no sir

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oisleep
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Jun 24 2005 22:31

yes that's right sir, it wasn't me sir, honest guv

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 25 2005 03:06
ssplibertarian wrote:
Scottish independence would be a significant gain for the working class not only of Scotland but of England, Wales and N. Ireland. Independence for Scotland is only really possible if brought about by the struggle of the Scottish working class as it runs totally counter to the interests of the Great British Bourgouisie. There is really no 'independent' Scottish bourgoisie which supports independence which is why the SNP are on a hiding to nothing. The breaking up of the imperialist British state would massively weaken state power to gain of the working class throughout the 'british Isles'. red star

well i'd debate that, i mean i'm no expert on scotland and you'd probly know more about the ins and outs of it all than me but i still think there are large corporate interests, in the energy sector and other sectors, that would benefit from an independent scotland

For example what about the solid analysis of the scottish executive by coporate watch, who are pretty relaible on this sort of thing.

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=1305

ps Welcome to the boards btw smile

thaw
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Jun 26 2005 21:58

Oisleep, Don't waste your breath with revol.

The Scottish Executive are of no interest whatsoever cantdo.

I'll tell you about politics in Scotland sometime. Also, if the TNCs would so love an independent Scotland then why is the press unanimously against it, activists killed in strange circumstances etc (Willie MacRae) etc

With Scottish independence, everything is up in the air for a re-ordering, we're not talking Eastern Europe here.

thaw
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Jun 26 2005 22:39

And I love you too.

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oisleep
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Jun 26 2005 22:41

can we run revol's posts through a translator so people with a reasonable grasp on everyday english will be able to enjoy them as well?

ssplibertarian
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Jun 30 2005 08:28
cantdocartwheels wrote:
ssplibertarian wrote:
Scottish independence would be a significant gain for the working class not only of Scotland but of England, Wales and N. Ireland. Independence for Scotland is only really possible if brought about by the struggle of the Scottish working class as it runs totally counter to the interests of the Great British Bourgouisie. There is really no 'independent' Scottish bourgoisie which supports independence which is why the SNP are on a hiding to nothing. The breaking up of the imperialist British state would massively weaken state power to gain of the working class throughout the 'british Isles'. red star

well i'd debate that, i mean i'm no expert on scotland and you'd probly know more about the ins and outs of it all than me but i still think there are large corporate interests, in the energy sector and other sectors, that would benefit from an independent scotland

For example what about the solid analysis of the scottish executive by coporate watch, who are pretty relaible on this sort of thing.

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=1305

ps Welcome to the boards btw :)

I'm not sure the article you link to really proves your point so much as shows how tied into the british state 'scottish' capitalism is.

P.s. cheers, it's a pleasure to be here red star black bloc red star

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Jul 7 2005 13:07

I think putting any energy into Scottish independence would be a mistake. The scottish ruling class are just as likely to be fascistic and small-minded as any other ruling class. Why bother campaigning for a seperate nation-state, and then have to fight another set of bosses. The scottish people may be supposedly more socialist, but they're not very actively revolutionary, not much actual class struggle going on these days, although who knows what the future may bring. The way I see it, Scotland was created by a bunch of Gaelic/Norman imperialists carving out a small empire among the petty kingdoms of the North, and then 300 years after losing it's nominal independence people want to bring it back. Why? There may be certain cultural/linguistic facets that people want to save and rightly so, but they are entirely detached from nationhood, you might as well campaign for the independence of Northumberland, or Mercia. Cultures can be saved, but political units are hopefully destined for the slag heap of history. grin

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 7 2005 18:10
ssplibertarian wrote:
I'm not sure the article you link to really proves your point so much as shows how tied into the british state 'scottish' capitalism is.

Not so much tied into the British state as based internationally. Any kind of Scottish state that didn't offer similar or greater benefits to corporations would see capital flight and a serious drop in its economy -- the scottish social democratic economy is a myth.

In order to survive that kind of economic shok we'd need to have already built a seriously organised system for getting hold of resources and producing the neccessaries for life -- so a non-corporate scotland is only possible in the context of a deep social revolution.

Will a social revolution come about through consitutional moves towards independence? No. All moves towards devolution have entrenched the power of the Scottish elite.

Will a social revolution happen the faster because of nationalist feeling? Can't see that one, either. Scotland may indeed lead the way in breaking open the capitalist system, but that would be because of its stronger working class movement rather than because of any ethnic differences.

And let's face it -- Scottish independence would lead to an English state, which would be crap cry

afraser
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Jul 16 2005 17:38

Oh, come on people, stop whinging - anarchism supports principal of federation with right of seccession at any time, remember, and who can doubt Scotland would secceed the first moment it could after any revolution (or before, if that choice came first). And that's just seccession into a Scotland sized unit, more likely would go further into Clydeside, North-East, etc. As it should be.

Should we support that - of course. Should it be a big huge priority - no (and that's speaking as a former SNP activist!). Look to the Greens position on this - grudgingly in favour of Scottish independence as part of a trend towards local self determination, but not making it a huge priority issue.

Bodach gun bhrigh> "The scottish people may be supposedly more socialist, but they're not very actively revolutionary"

Sadly is all bullshit living in history now, Scottish people no better than others any more in that respect. Still, we can still rise now....

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Jul 18 2005 11:51

Why do people care about Scotland anyway, it's crap. If people can't get on with the English now, after having been at peace with them for 250 years, then when will they ever? If Scotland secedes after a revolution then we're all crazy. Mr. T

Let's just try and get along with other people instead of harbouring masochistic grudges. Get over it!

thaw
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Jul 18 2005 20:44

That is such an outdated view, Bod, english people are perfectly nice (apart from whenthey vote Tory). It is a democratic issue. All hail the soviets (or something like that)

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Volin
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Jul 18 2005 23:40
thaw wrote:
That is such an outdated view, Bod

Hey a' bhodaich, did you see what he called you! smile

The thing I find confusing about this discussion is that people are bringing up and using the phrase "seccession" in the context of secession from a federation when that is completely different from the independence of one political region/nation from another. Obviously as anarchists we are not for the splitting up or segregating of a nation-state but the complete dissolution of that entity. We do not want Scotland to secede, these are completely unsatisfactory to our goals and principles. But I'm really beginning to wonder what the fuck is Scotland? Why do we keep talking about this supposedly homogenous lump when we especially should know that it's a ruling-class construct, and by its nature removed and alien to most of the people it encompasses>>?

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Jul 19 2005 10:50

I thought I was saying the English were nice, and careful with the abbreviations there embarrassed

thaw
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Jul 19 2005 22:27

A democratic issue - remember Maggie. God an english state would be a godsend. the n we could join up - be more strategic - the caps are. Fuck

Strategically speaking of course..

Elaine