feck off and make up your mind whether you're a prod or a taig you dolly-mixture bastard! 
Apr 27 2005 15:56
Apr 27 2005 21:24
Quote:
yeah lazlo your right but i think in terms of palestine the continued israeli occupation derails the development of class struggle and serves to cement cross class collaboration, as in the current climate the face of the "boss" is the IDF. Saying that, it is utterly niave to think that any Palestinian state would be able or willing to deal with the needs, and desires of the palestinian proletariat, and would essentially be a jumped up street gang. Therefore the withdrawal of the IDF would be a substantial step in deconstructing cross class collaboration, and would show up not only the PA but reactionary scum like Hamas for what they really are. It's kinda like how with the ceasefire the IRA are now seen as a bunch of jumped up hoods who think they own whole communities, in the past their shit was tolerated on the basis of them providing some form of defense against loyalists etc. Likewise most working class prods have absolutely no time for the UVF or UDA.
I completely agree with this analysis. Weird to read you actually talking sense.
Quote:
Of course the end of the IDF occupation in Gaza and the West Bank is of absolutely no significance to Scottish independence, and only a desperate arsehole would attempt to use it as an example as to why independence is a step forward
fuck you and your straw men revol. I _wasn't_ saying it was significant.
I was actually countering the implicit assertion within cartwheel's post that political developments don't matter.
Let's be clear I don't think the Palestinian situation has many parallels with the Scottish one (the last time it was in any way comparable was 700 hundred years ago - forty generations!), and I don't think what happens in Palestine/Israel is of much consquence to arguments for, or against an independent Scotland.
My point was that, were an independent Scotland to arise, it would be a significant political development, which changed situations here and abroad quite radically, that it would not be 'an irrelevance' as cartwheels suggested. On your terms, just to take a fucking example, it would be far from irrelevant because it would be a completely retrogressive development for the class struggle in Scotland and the UK.
Awa tae Freuchie and fry mice!
Apr 27 2005 21:33
well yes of course it would have serious implications, firstly because for it to be achieved it would require a significant upshot in nationalist sentiment, would most certainly be matched by an upshot in nationalist sentiment in England, and would serve to further mask the real locus of power. From a "left" position it is posited on the notion of some sort of independent social democracy (which any two bit economics undergrad could show is niave), a complete rejection of EU ecomonic policy, it just wouldn't work and certainly is not worth struggling for.
now go stuff yourself on fried mars, irn bru and then translate the resulting flatulance into second rate pseudo religious socialist sermons you daft fuck.
seriously i find it hard to believe your only 21, your diction makes you sound like a fucking digger!
May 7 2005 22:51
I see that revol continues to be a jumped up parvenu unionist with a lack of vision in terms of imperialism. Oh, well, C'es la vie.
Joe
May 7 2005 23:07
and it appears that the same intellectually dishonest bollox that is anti imperialism is being used as a substitute for critical thought.
but hey your right, i mean the USSR was progressive and therefore im sure it's expansionist policies were much better for the working class of Afghanistan and Czechoslovakia than the brutal british boot is for Scotland.
May 7 2005 23:13
Stopped you in your tracks.
Rift valley
Jun 24 2005 13:12
Scottish independence would be a significant gain for the working class not only of Scotland but of England, Wales and N. Ireland. Independence for Scotland is only really possible if brought about by the struggle of the Scottish working class as it runs totally counter to the interests of the Great British Bourgouisie. There is really no 'independent' Scottish bourgoisie which supports independence which is why the SNP are on a hiding to nothing. The breaking up of the imperialist British state would massively weaken state power to gain of the working class throughout the 'british Isles'. 
Jun 24 2005 13:25
is that you tommy?
Jun 24 2005 13:41
i'm scottish, i'd much rather go horizontal with the class than vertical with the nation any day of the week, although i can see why so many would choose the vertical route, hence the appeal of studying nationalism
Jun 24 2005 18:12
oh the hilarity that is nationalism, oh the pure surreality that is Scottish nationalism and the comic tradegy that is Irish nationalism.
Jun 24 2005 20:01
Well, well.
My thoughts.
I do think that the break up of the British State would be a step forward. For this reason, it will be mercilessly fought if coming close.
Imagine the implications for The North (of Ireland), the British imperial regiments, nuclear capability etc.
The UK is the US's key ally, Scotland is the weakest link.
Goodbye.
\ps Also may I say one more thing, humour was used to denigrate the Irish MANY MOONS AGO. i m sure this will also apply to the Scots, especially as we had a differnt social order.
As i say (as much more clever than you bourgoisie), we will overcome.
|Ha
Jun 24 2005 20:46
Hello people, any thoughts to submit?
Jun 24 2005 21:02
revol68 wrote:
oh the hilarity that is nationalism, oh the pure surreality that is Scottish nationalism and the comic tradegy that is Irish nationalism.
why pick out individual nationalisms for ridicule as though they're are good nationalisms and bad nationalisms?
Jun 24 2005 21:07
well cos one can atleast understand an upsurge in nationalist sentiment in say Iraq, whilst i find myself completelly dumbfounded by arseholes who think Scotland is under imperialist riegn. As for the "occupied 6 counties" well it's a poor form of imperialism that serves neither your political or more crudely economic interests.
Basically im opposed to all forms of nationalism but find it especially hard to stomach when resting on an anti imperialist rational that isn't even close to the truth.
Jun 24 2005 21:19
all power to the british state eh, british anarchists for british anarchism
Jun 24 2005 21:25
and i suppouse cos i refuse to support the peoples liberation army of cornwall im an apologist for imperialism?
fucking idiotic cock!
Aren't you studying nationalism in the former Yugoslavia? Would you have support the break up of it into warring lil factions? Does not supporting the break up of the former yugoslavia mean that your supporting Serbian nationalism?
Jun 24 2005 21:38
oops, forgot to put the usual disclaimer on that one, you know jokes and stuff, remember humour?
"Does not supporting the break up of the former yugoslavia mean that your supporting Serbian nationalism"
but, eh? is it me or is that worded a bit weird?
if "one" didn't support the break up of former yugo, you're saying that translates to "one" supporting nationalism?
Jun 24 2005 21:44
serbian nationalism being a huge factor in the growth of other nationalisms.
It's relative grip on the army meaning that serbian nationalism became seen as tied up with maintaining the Yugoslavian polity.
Jun 24 2005 21:51
i dunno, i see greater serbian as fairly different from yugoslavian or whatever the intellects call it, overlaps yeah but fairly simplistic view of it, certainly in terms of the la longue duree, imo
Jun 24 2005 21:56
yes you see thats my point! Croat and Bosnian nationalists would argue that to not support their "national liberation" would be to support serbian nationalism by default! It's simplistic shite but its on the same level as not supporting Irish national liberation (in Northern Ireland) is de facto support for British Imperialism.
Jun 24 2005 22:00
if only tito were still with us eh
Jun 24 2005 22:19
revol68 wrote:
yes you see thats my point! Croat and Bosnian nationalists would argue that to not support their "national liberation" would be to support serbian nationalism by default! It's simplistic shite but its on the same level as not supporting Irish national liberation (in Northern Ireland) is de facto support for British Imperialism.
but wait a minute, your equating serbian nationalism to british imperialism here, that anaology as discussed above doesn't work 
Jun 24 2005 22:23
fuck are you thick?
It's meant to be a comparative in the manner that people accuse those who refuse to support Irish national liberation of being essentially apologists for British imperialism! Likewise people who refused to support the break away republics where accused of being defacto supporters of Serbian nationalism.
Is it really that difficult to grasp? Im not comparing the British state to the Serbian nationalists im merely pointing out shite logic.
Jun 24 2005 22:24
revol68 wrote:
fuck are you thick?
Jun 24 2005 22:25
nevermind that, are you seriously saying you can't graps the point im trying to make.
Jun 24 2005 22:26
no sir
Jun 24 2005 22:31
"no sir" as in you can't grasp the point or "no sir" i can grasp the point?
Jun 24 2005 22:31
yes that's right sir, it wasn't me sir, honest guv
Jun 25 2005 03:06
ssplibertarian wrote:
Scottish independence would be a significant gain for the working class not only of Scotland but of England, Wales and N. Ireland. Independence for Scotland is only really possible if brought about by the struggle of the Scottish working class as it runs totally counter to the interests of the Great British Bourgouisie. There is really no 'independent' Scottish bourgoisie which supports independence which is why the SNP are on a hiding to nothing. The breaking up of the imperialist British state would massively weaken state power to gain of the working class throughout the 'british Isles'.
well i'd debate that, i mean i'm no expert on scotland and you'd probly know more about the ins and outs of it all than me but i still think there are large corporate interests, in the energy sector and other sectors, that would benefit from an independent scotland
For example what about the solid analysis of the scottish executive by coporate watch, who are pretty relaible on this sort of thing.
http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=1305
ps Welcome to the boards btw 
Can comment on articles and discussions
stop lying you just ingest your irish catholic cultural identity in the super concentrated form of the Irish news every morning.