Being pro-independence

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The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 18:45

So, having dismissed the peshmerga as US stooges (pretty pisspoor stooges if the US has already vetoed their independence demands some time ago) perhaps you might outline your solution to the Kurdish problem for us then?

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Aug 15 2005 18:56
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:

Well being a republic is no cast-iron certainty that they won't embark on ridiculous wars

If you can point me to where I said that this was the case I shall retract the statement.

So you support ridiculous wars?

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or, just maybe, they're opposed to wars on principle?

bollocks

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How would English federalism affect me?I'd be interested to see how it worked out and if any lessons could be learned, but otherwise it wouldn't affect me one whit (if we are still persisting with a hypothetical independent Scotland scenario)

Well, maybe if people living in Scotland weren't as hermetically sealed as you seem to be, they'd want federalism too.

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I'd support any resistance movement opposing dictatorship or colonialism.Could you say the same? After all, the Iraqi resistance, the Kurdish peshmerga, the Chechen question, the guys courageously speaking out against Lukashenko in Belarus, may all be tainted with nationalism. Could a 'revolutionary' as pure as you risk contamination by lending your support?

confused

The Iraqi resistance are all ex-Baathists or reactionary Islamists, waiting to repress, and probably repressing working class organisation and resistance. Chechens are likewise repressive Islamists. There are anarchists in Belarus too you know.

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 19:27

fuck off with this shit. No I don't support ridiculous wars.

as to the rest of your post......

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 19:32
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
Quote:
or, just maybe, they're opposed to wars on principle?

bollocks

when faced with something you disagree with yet can't disprove, is it your common reaction to stick your fingers in your ears and scream 'bollocks'?

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How would English federalism affect me?I'd be interested to see how it worked out and if any lessons could be learned, but otherwise it wouldn't affect me one whit (if we are still persisting with a hypothetical independent Scotland scenario)

Well, maybe if people living in Scotland weren't as hermetically sealed as you seem to be, they'd want federalism too.

[b]Maybe they would. As well they decide for themselves, then, if it works in England

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I'd support any resistance movement opposing dictatorship or colonialism.Could you say the same? After all, the Iraqi resistance, the Kurdish peshmerga, the Chechen question, the guys courageously speaking out against Lukashenko in Belarus, may all be tainted with nationalism. Could a 'revolutionary' as pure as you risk contamination by lending your support?

confused

[/b]

The Iraqi resistance are all ex-Baathists or reactionary Islamists, waiting to repress, and probably repressing working class organisation and resistance. Chechens are likewise repressive Islamists. There are anarchists in Belarus too you know.

more weasel words from the master of the genre. Good to see you don't just generalise ludicrously about Scots as a national group.

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Aug 15 2005 19:39
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:

or, just maybe, they're opposed to wars on principle?

bollocks

when faced with something you disagree with yet can't disprove, is it your common reaction to stick your fingers in your ears and scream 'bollocks'?

Well, I don't think it's possible to prove that all governments are mendacious, self-seeking and reactionary. But as it has happened so far in 100% of cases, I claim proof by precedent

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 19:41

except the SNP have never been in government, have they.

keep wriggling....

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Aug 15 2005 20:08
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
except the SNP have never been in government, have they.

keep wriggling....

Oh and the SNP are paragons of virtue, except they're going to cut corporation tax. Oh and they get a lot of far-right support. Especially in their north-east strongholds. Oh and they'll keep their promises. Even when no-one else ever has.

If you want to see me wriggle, just come out to the dancing, bumpkin-boy grin

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Aug 15 2005 20:10
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
I'd support any resistance movement opposing dictatorship or colonialism.Could you say the same? After all, the Iraqi resistance, the Kurdish peshmerga, the Chechen question, the guys courageously speaking out against Lukashenko in Belarus, may all be tainted with nationalism. Could a 'revolutionary' as pure as you risk contamination by lending your support?

Sorry, haven't read this entire thread. Am I really quoting you, here, Good Soldier Svejk?

If so, two questions for you

1/ What form does this "support" take?

2/ It seems you first identify what the problem is in these cases as being 'imperialism'- or foreign/minority domination. You would really 'support' any factions or grouping that oppose this? No matter their intentions (the installation of a more oppressive regime in Iraq, for instance) or composition (ditto, ultra-reactionary anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-trades union Islamists and ex-Ba'athists). My enemy's enemy is my friend?

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 20:44
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
except the SNP have never been in government, have they.

keep wriggling....

Oh and the SNP are paragons of virtue, except they're going to cut corporation tax. Oh and they get a lot of far-right support. Especially in their north-east strongholds. Oh and they'll keep their promises. Even when no-one else ever has.

If you want to see me wriggle, just come out to the dancing, bumpkin-boy grin

care to outline the nature and demogrpahic of the SNPs far right support 'especially in the north east'? Or is this yet another of your baseless assertions which you'll shy away from when called on to proivde evidence?

As to the spectacle of you dancing, I was brought up not to mock the afflicted.

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 20:46
pingtiao wrote:
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
I'd support any resistance movement opposing dictatorship or colonialism.Could you say the same? After all, the Iraqi resistance, the Kurdish peshmerga, the Chechen question, the guys courageously speaking out against Lukashenko in Belarus, may all be tainted with nationalism. Could a 'revolutionary' as pure as you risk contamination by lending your support?

Sorry, haven't read this entire thread. Am I really quoting you, here, Good Soldier Svejk?

If so, two questions for you

1/ What form does this "support" take?

2/ It seems you first identify what the problem is in these cases as being 'imperialism'- or foreign/minority domination. You would really 'support' any factions or grouping that oppose this? No matter their intentions (the installation of a more oppressive regime in Iraq, for instance) or composition (ditto, ultra-reactionary anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-trades union Islamists and ex-Ba'athists). My enemy's enemy is my friend?

No, I wouldn't offer unqualified support to Ba'athists, Moslem nutters, reactionaries etc.

The reply was poorly worded, but I had this Bodach gun Brigh bluebottle buzzing around my head at the time.

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Aug 15 2005 20:54
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:

care to outline the nature and demogrpahic of the SNPs far right support 'especially in the north east'? Or is this yet another of your baseless assertions which you'll shy away from when called on to proivde evidence?

Well common sense, plus the fact that an SNP activist told me so, and he's been to conference and everything. He also mentioned far-right activity in his own Glasgow branch. So there. And none of my assertions are baseless.

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As to the spectacle of you dancing, I was brought up not to mock the afflicted.

touche

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Aug 15 2005 20:56
revol68 wrote:

I <3 U!

Entirely reciprocated, by the way

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 21:00

Not its not common sense at all.

How convenient that one un-named and unattributed SNP activist backs up your case. I could produce 100 who'll tell you exactly the opposite.

The only far right activity loosely associated with Scottish Nationalism in living memeory was Settler Watch north of Aberdeen in the early 90s which was rapidly proscribed the SNP; sympathisers were immediately expelled if found also to be SNP members. the existence of organisations within the party such as Scots Asians for Independence and New Scots for Independence hardly give credence to your case that the SNP are a party of closet neo fascists.

But then you do seem to inhabit a weird parallel universe all by yourself. Indeed, it must be as lonely as your wriggling experiences on the dancefloor.

sad

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Aug 15 2005 21:08
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:

How convenient that one un-named and unattributed SNP activist backs up your case. I could produce 100 who'll tell you exactly the opposite.

Well I'm hardly going to tell you who he is, am I?

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The only far right activity loosely associated with Scottish Nationalism in living memeory was Settler Watch north of Aberdeen in the early 90s which was rapidly proscribed the SNP; sympathisers were immediately expelled if found also to be SNP members. the existence of organisations within the party such as Scots Asians for Independence and New Scots for Independence hardly give credence to your case that the SNP are a party of closet neo fascists.

Damn, maybe I should have said far-right as in Scots Tory, who are racist enough, honestly do you think that all Scottish nationalists are moral saints who preach endlessly the good cause while handing out alms and setting up workers co-ops?

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But then you do seem to inhabit a weird parallel universe all by yourself. Indeed, it must be as lonely as your wriggling experiences on the dancefloor.

:(

If you'd seen me wriggle you wouldn't say that.

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 21:12
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:

How convenient that one un-named and unattributed SNP activist backs up your case. I could produce 100 who'll tell you exactly the opposite.

Well I'm hardly going to tell you who he is, am I?

Quote:
The only far right activity loosely associated with Scottish Nationalism in living memeory was Settler Watch north of Aberdeen in the early 90s which was rapidly proscribed the SNP; sympathisers were immediately expelled if found also to be SNP members. the existence of organisations within the party such as Scots Asians for Independence and New Scots for Independence hardly give credence to your case that the SNP are a party of closet neo fascists.

Damn, maybe I should have said far-right as in Scots Tory, who are racist enough, honestly do you think that all Scottish nationalists are moral saints who preach endlessly the good cause while handing out alms and setting up workers co-ops?

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But then you do seem to inhabit a weird parallel universe all by yourself. Indeed, it must be as lonely as your wriggling experiences on the dancefloor.

:(

If you'd seen me wriggle you wouldn't say that.

1. I'm not asking you to tell me who he/she is ffs.

It's just awfully convenient that someone who rightly shouldn't be named exactly agrees with everything you say about the SNP, despite remaining in his branch and 'exlusively' revealing that it's really a nest of right wing vipers.

Put more simply: I don't believe you, or that your SNP 'mole' exists.

2. No I don't think all SNP people are moral saints, or perfect, or whatever, indeed many whom I've met are utter twats. However, that fact doesn't autmatically lead me to the conclusion that the SNP is a neo-fascist party with a deeply hidden racist core.

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Aug 15 2005 21:26
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:

1. I'm not asking you to tell me who he/she is ffs.

It's just awfully convenient that someone who rightly shouldn't be named exactly agrees with everything you say about the SNP, despite remaining in his branch and 'exlusively' revealing that it's really a nest of right wing vipers.

Put more simply: I don't believe you, or that your SNP 'mole' exists.

Well he doesn't agree with me on almost anything, but he was in the SNP until earlier this year, and he did say there were a lot of right-wingers in the party.

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2. No I don't think all SNP people are moral saints, or perfect, or whatever, indeed many whom I've met are utter twats.

I wonder why that is?

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However, that fact doesn't autmatically lead me to the conclusion that the SNP is a neo-fascist party with a deeply hidden racist core.

I wasn't saying that, I just said it had right-wing elements, allright, far-right elements. But the more important point is that it will become more rightwing if it ever gets elected. Social democratic parties do it all the time. People's opinions are dictated by the positions of power they hold, not the other way round. Once people get in power, they find the political system is set up to help the rich, and as they get richer through the political system, they identify with it more and more, until they proclaim the opposite of what they were elected for.

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 21:31

What the fuck?! You've just sent all day arguing exactly that; that nationalism is a jingositic, chauvinsitic phenomenon (despite being unable to produce any evidence of this re: the present day SNP); that there's little difference between Adolf Hitler and Alex Salmond; and drawing an equivalence between fascism and Scottish nationalism.

No backtracking, now.

Re: SNP becoming right wing if they ever get into power: it's happening already so that they can get into power. Which is why I left them in 1999. Indeed the radical fringe that the party had in the 1980s and 1990s has almost entirely disappeared either to the Trots or the Greens, leaving behind only a few discontented individuals.

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Aug 15 2005 21:44
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
What the fuck?! You've just sent all day arguing exactly that; that nationalism is a jingositic, chauvinsitic phenomenon (despite being unable to produce any evidence of this re: the present day SNP); that there's little difference between Adolf Hitler and Alex Salmond; and drawing an equivalence between fascism and Scottish nationalism.

I think it's possible to be jingoistic without being Fascistic, it's a question of degree, rather than one of kind. British Empire, jingoistic to the point of Fascism, but Fascism came later. Racism is a much older phenomenon than Fascism, and I don't think I said Nationalists were Fascists, I just said they were jingoistic, chauvinistic, philistines and reactionary.

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No backtracking, now.

Cheerfully withdrawn

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Re: SNP becoming right wing if they ever get into power: it's happening already so that they can get into power. Which is why I left them in 1999. Indeed the radical fringe that the party had in the 1980s and 1990s has almost entirely disappeared either to the Trots or the Greens, leaving behind only a few discontented individuals.

Thus proving my point, man that took a while

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 15 2005 21:56

Jingoism= extreme patriotism fostered by conditions of war. Unless yr defintion is different. Which is why I thought your remarks re: the SNP in this regard were at best facile.

I want indepndence for Scotland though I'm not in the SNP. That said, you were talking almost unmitigated shite about them, which is why I called you on it. I want independence because I think Scotland will be better governed from Edinburgh, and better governed still in the future by each and every community that is part of Scotland, with as small a residue as possible of central govt left in Edinburgh.

You think it's all a waste of time and instead agitate for a violent political revolution which has never looked further away than at the present time. Your faith lies in a denationalised working class uniting and overthrowing its political masters. That prospect, too, has never looked further away than at the present time. From my perspective, which could equally be as wrong as you have been about the SNP.

There we are.

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Aug 15 2005 22:08
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
Jingoism= extreme patriotism fostered by conditions of war. Unless yr defintion is different. Which is why I thought your remarks re: the SNP in this regard were at best facile.

well, what about chauvinism, being philistines and reactionaries.

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I want indepndence for Scotland though I'm not in the SNP. That said, you were talking almost unmitigated shite about them, which is why I called you on it.

But they do have right wing elements, it's called the leadership.

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I want independence because I think Scotland will be better governed from Edinburgh, and better governed still in the future by each and every community that is part of Scotland, with as small a residue as possible of central govt left in Edinburgh.

But that's not going to happen through independence and the normal party political process, is it?

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You think it's all a waste of time and instead agitate for a violent political revolution which has never looked further away than at the present time. Your faith lies in a denationalised working class uniting and overthrowing its political masters. That prospect, too, has never looked further away than at the present time.

Yeah, but if I voted Scottish Nationalist, I'd be a jingoistic, chauvinist reactionary, so I'll take my chances.

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From my perspective, which could equally be as wrong as you have been about the SNP.

Well it is, and I wasn't wrong about the SNP

There we are.

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Aug 16 2005 08:42
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:

well, what about chauvinism, being philistines and reactionaries.

Chauvinism= extreme pride in one's country fostering the delusion that it's superior to others.

It is possible to believe in an independent Scotland without believing Scotland to be intrinsically better than anywhere else, you know. I don;t think that Scotland is 'better' than England, Switzerland or Turkmenistan, but I do think it'd be better off governing itself.

Philistines= lacking any appreciation for culture, the arts or even denying their worth as ' a waste of time'; cultural vandals. Where is this coming from exactly? new Labour maybe, but I'll be interested to see you justify this in relation to the SNP. Oh no hang on, you won't, because your m.o. on these boards is to throw about disgusting slurs and innuendo with fuck all to back them up.

Reactionary= Politicians who respond to problems on the basis of emotion rather than reason, those emotions founded in clerical, military or aristocratic fetishism

Again, what? By your own admission the SNP is a social democratic party. How is that phenomenon reactionary? Oh yes- of course- it's reactionary because you don't agree with it. Do you call your Mum a 'reactionary' when she asks you to tidy your room, too?

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I want indepndence for Scotland though I'm not in the SNP. That said, you were talking almost unmitigated shite about them, which is why I called you on it.

But they do have right wing elements, it's called the leadership.

The leadership has some right wing elements. Why do you think Salmond came back from London? becuase otherwise Roseanna Cunningham- a left wing republican- was a shoo in for the leadership. People do have differing view in a political party, you know.

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I want independence because I think Scotland will be better governed from Edinburgh, and better governed still in the future by each and every community that is part of Scotland, with as small a residue as possible of central govt left in Edinburgh.

But that's not going to happen through independence and the normal party political process, is it?

maybe not. Neither you nor I can say for sure. However they've only been trying for 30 years seriously so give them time yet. I'd much rather a gradual change than your sort of proposed change- a violent insurrection cauing the death of thousands, inevitably leading to a protracted civil war, provoking much more extreme reactions from the british state, and even if you get through all that, then, err...what? People on these boards seem to have a hundred different blueprints for what the plan then is, ranging from living in the woods eating treeroots (primtivists) to council communism (pingtiao).

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You think it's all a waste of time and instead agitate for a violent political revolution which has never looked further away than at the present time. Your faith lies in a denationalised working class uniting and overthrowing its political masters. That prospect, too, has never looked further away than at the present time.

Yeah, but if I voted Scottish Nationalist, I'd be a jingoistic, chauvinist reactionary, so I'll take my chances.

see above. Obviously you're the kind of person who, if they repeat something often enough, they're feeble minded enough to believe it true.

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From my perspective, which could equally be as wrong as you have been about the SNP.

Well it is, and I wasn't wrong about the SNP

You were. Fundamentally and Unequivocally.

There we are.

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Aug 16 2005 11:19
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:

well, what about chauvinism, being philistines and reactionaries.

Chauvinism= extreme pride in one's country fostering the delusion that it's superior to others.

It is possible to believe in an independent Scotland without believing Scotland to be intrinsically better than anywhere else, you know.

no it's not

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I don;t think that Scotland is 'better' than England, Switzerland or Turkmenistan, but I do think it'd be better off governing itself.

wrong

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Philistines= lacking any appreciation for culture, the arts or even denying their worth as ' a waste of time'; cultural vandals. Where is this coming from exactly? new Labour maybe, but I'll be interested to see you justify this in relation to the SNP. Oh no hang on, you won't, because your m.o. on these boards is to throw about disgusting slurs and innuendo with fuck all to back them up.

Well, any politician tries to constrain cultural developments, seeing them as dangerous to their continued control of the country, so I guess the Scot Nats would be exactly the same. Rudolf Rocker, Nationalism and Culture, try that for starters.

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Reactionary= Politicians who respond to problems on the basis of emotion rather than reason, those emotions founded in clerical, military or aristocratic fetishism

Exactly the reasons for having an independent Scotland, Scotland is an artificial unit, created by Normans carving out an empire in the North, now why should the normal people of this political unit owe any loyalty to their bosses? If you were rational about it, there'd be no reason to support Scottish Nationalism, as it's only based on outdated patriotism, and hatred of our neighbours. If it wasn't based on hatred, you wouldn't bother, as it's a total waste of time.

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Again, what? By your own admission the SNP is a social democratic party. How is that phenomenon reactionary? Oh yes- of course- it's reactionary because you don't agree with it. Do you call your Mum a 'reactionary' when she asks you to tidy your room, too?

Because there would still exist reactionary institutions in that society that made the working classes life hell. Like the police, the courts, psychiatry, unequal wage system, corporations waiting to exploit the third world. Just look at Labour in britain, ostensibly social democratic, yet funding wars and dictatorships throughout the last 50 years.

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I want indepndence for Scotland though I'm not in the SNP. That said, you were talking almost unmitigated shite about them, which is why I called you on it.

But they do have right wing elements, it's called the leadership.

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The leadership has some right wing elements. Why do you think Salmond came back from London? becuase otherwise Roseanna Cunningham- a left wing republican- was a shoo in for the leadership. People do have differing view in a political party, you know.

I think you're being very naive.

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I want independence because I think Scotland will be better governed from Edinburgh, and better governed still in the future by each and every community that is part of Scotland, with as small a residue as possible of central govt left in Edinburgh.

But that's not going to happen through independence and the normal party political process, is it?

Quote:
maybe not. Neither you nor I can say for sure. However they've only been trying for 30 years seriously so give them time yet. I'd much rather a gradual change than your sort of proposed change- a violent insurrection cauing the death of thousands, inevitably leading to a protracted civil war, provoking much more extreme reactions from the british state, and even if you get through all that, then, err...what? People on these boards seem to have a hundred different blueprints for what the plan then is, ranging from living in the woods eating treeroots (primtivists) to council communism (pingtiao).

I've never mentioned my blueprint of the future.

Quote:
You think it's all a waste of time and instead agitate for a violent political revolution which has never looked further away than at the present time. Your faith lies in a denationalised working class uniting and overthrowing its political masters. That prospect, too, has never looked further away than at the present time.

Yeah, but if I voted Scottish Nationalist, I'd be a jingoistic, chauvinist reactionary, so I'll take my chances.

Quote:
see above. Obviously you're the kind of person who, if they repeat something often enough, they're feeble minded enough to believe it true.

No, it was true in the first place.

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 16 2005 11:44

You're into just repeating yourself now and ignoring everything I say that's inconvenient or that you don't like, so there's not much point continuing this.

On the first two points- I'll thank you not to put words in my my mouth either, you arrogant cunt.

You haven't the first fucking clue what philistinism is, either.

keep on believing what is convenient for you to believe. Just a shame you're about the only person in Scotland that has those beliefs, isn't it?

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Aug 16 2005 12:13
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
You're into just repeating yourself now and ignoring everything I say that's inconvenient or that you don't like, so there's not much point continuing this.

Thank fuck

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On the first two points- I'll thank you not to put words in my my mouth either, you arrogant cunt.

ooooooo

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You haven't the first fucking clue what philistinism is, either.

No, I do, it's called nationalism

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keep on believing what is convenient for you to believe. Just a shame you're about the only person in Scotland that has those beliefs, isn't it?

Yeah, but at least I'm not an idiot

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Aug 16 2005 12:44

smile smile smile smile

'I'm right and everyone else is wrong'.

The standpoint of a complete fuckwit- which admittedly it was obvious you were several pages ago.

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Aug 16 2005 12:51
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
:) smile smile smile

'I'm right and everyone else is wrong'.

No I'm right and Nationalists are wrong, tough shit.

Quote:
The standpoint of a complete fuckwit- which admittedly it was obvious you were several pages ago.

How do I respond to this, I've tried to answer your points, but you completely failed to see the point of my argument, and persist in wallowing in a deluded Scotto- fetishist perspective. Nationalism is backward, it divides people, and that only gives power to our bosses. If you believe that racism won't rise in an independent Scotland, that Scotland will be better off cutting itself off from everyone else in the UK on the basis of a historical accident, and then think that Scottish bosses will be good to us just because they're Scottish, then you're certainly the fuckwit here.

Cheers

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Aug 16 2005 13:02
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
:) smile smile smile

'I'm right and everyone else is wrong'.

No I'm right and Nationalists are wrong, tough shit.

Quote:
The standpoint of a complete fuckwit- which admittedly it was obvious you were several pages ago.

How do I respond to this, I've tried to answer your points, but you completely failed to see the point of my argument, and persist in wallowing in a deluded Scotto- fetishist perspective. Nationalism is backward, it divides people, and that only gives power to our bosses. If you believe that racism won't rise in an independent Scotland, that Scotland will be better off cutting itself off from everyone else in the UK on the basis of a historical accident, and then think that Scottish bosses will be good to us just because they're Scottish, then you're certainly the fuckwit here.

Cheers

Tell me, are you ever wrong about anything?

I'm not aware of any reasonable answers you've made on this thread and the suggestion that you've tried to see the opposing point of view and rejected it on the basis of detached reason is laughable. (cf. your baseless ramblings about jingosims, fascism, Scottish armies repressing 'the workers', neo-liberal kleptocracy, cont'd post 94...)

You also seem to be repeating the classic new Labour argument that an independent Scotland automatically means 'cutting itself off' from the rest of the UK and indeed the wider world- which is again complete rubbish. Mystifiyngly, for a supposed 'anarchist', your very good at parroting the lines of the 'boss class' you affect to despise.

I don't see Scottish independence as an end point or a goal in itself- I see it as a means to affect political change for the better. I've made that clear throughout- yet you ignore this in lieu of addled brained fantasy about my alleged 'Scotto fetishness' 'hatred of the English', the SNPs association with 'far right elements'- mud you fling in the hope that it will stick, but for which you lack any proof whatsoever.

Your threadbare arguments regarding racism, and Scottish 'bosses', are once again complete conjecture which I assume you're raising owing to a lack of anything more credible to say.

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Aug 16 2005 13:18
The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:

Tell me, are you ever wrong about anything?

Not about Nationalism, no

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I'm not aware of any reasonable answers you've made on this thread and the suggestion that you've tried to see the opposing point of view and rejected it on the basis of detached reason is laughable. (cf. your baseless ramblings about jingosims, fascism, Scottish armies repressing 'the workers', neo-liberal kleptocracy, cont'd post 94...)

I think people outgrow Nationalism at some point. I don't think I need to try and see the viewpoints of Nationalism, as I've been surrounded by it all my life. And if you can't see the universal nature of Nationalism wherever it occurs throughout the world, then you're very blinkered.

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You also seem to be repeating the classic new Labour argument that an independent Scotland automatically means 'cutting itself off' from the rest of the UK and indeed the wider world- which is again complete rubbish. Mystifiyngly, for a supposed 'anarchist', your very good at parroting the lines of the 'boss class' you affect to despise.

And the SNP don't represent a boss class?

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I don't see Scottish independence as an end point or a goal in itself- I see it as a means to affect political change for the better. I've made that clear throughout- yet you ignore this in lieu of addled brained fantasy about my alleged 'Scotto fetishness' 'hatred of the English', the SNPs association with 'far right elements'- mud you fling in the hope that it will stick, but for which you lack any proof whatsoever.

Anyone who proclaims Scottish Nationalism has an irrational fetish, a longing for an outdated nation-state that would only repress working people if it were reinstated. No politician gives up their power voluntarily. So your claim that it would benefit ordinary people if we became independent is pish. And if you don't hate the English, why do you want to set up a seperate Nation state? To persecute Scottish people better? I fail to understand why you insist these arguments aren't valid, they are in the overwhelming majority of cases, and I would suspect, in yours.

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Your threadbare arguments regarding racism, and Scottish 'bosses', are once again complete conjecture which I assume you're raising owing to a lack of anything more credible to say.

No, based on observation of the real world, wherever Nations get seperated from previous larger nation states, then there is an upsurge in Racism. You can deny this and say it's conjecture, just like you denied that wars in the past have been founded on Nationalism, but I think the facts bear me out.

You may have denied that realpolitik has any effect in Scotland, but you won't get very far in the real world like that, I'm afraid

Ed's picture
Ed
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Aug 16 2005 13:18

Right mate, I've joined this thing in a bit late so these points might already have been addressed but anyway, here goes.....

The Good Soldier Svejk wrote:
I want independence because I think Scotland will be better governed from Edinburgh, and better governed still in the future by each and every community that is part of Scotland, with as small a residue as possible of central govt left in Edinburgh.

First off, do you really believe that the Scottish bourgeousie would look after the Scottish working class' interests? Why would they? Because they're both Scottish? If workers and bosses interests are opposed and contradictory, then why would it be in Scottish workers' interests to be ruled by local bosses?

Secondly, do you really think that an independent Scotland would eventually be whittled down to become a free federation of independent and interdependent communes? Do you really think that central Scottish govt would even let local communities take power away from them?

Thirdly, do you not think that an increase in Scottish nationalism would be detrimental to world-wide working class militancy as it would channel Scottish working class militancy into bourgeois nationalism rather than internationalist socialism?

Lastly, who are the Scottish people? What makes one person Scottish and someone else not? Also, would someone in Glasgow have more in common with someone from Raenaegidael (sp?) or someone Manchester? Or what about a Scottish landowner and an English landowner? Are they mortal enemies? A Pakistani man born in Scotland, is he Scottish? Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, where are they from? Maybe the English need to split away from Scottish rule!

Come on mate, you know all this nationalism stuff is irrational bollocks. Loyalty shouldn't be to some mythical idea of a nation, it should be to our class. Simple really.

The Good Soldie...
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Aug 16 2005 16:37
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:

I think people outgrow Nationalism at some point. I don't think I need to try and see the viewpoints of Nationalism, as I've been surrounded by it all my life. And if you can't see the universal nature of Nationalism wherever it occurs throughout the world, then you're very blinkered.

The 'universal nature of nationalism' sounds very nice, but means fuck all in practice. If you can't see, or pig headedly won't acknowledge, the qualitative difference between Nazism and present day Scottish nationalism then it doesn't really matter if you've been 'surrounded by nationalism all your life'- whatever that's supposed to mean.

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You also seem to be repeating the classic new Labour argument that an independent Scotland automatically means 'cutting itself off' from the rest of the UK and indeed the wider world- which is again complete rubbish. Mystifiyngly, for a supposed 'anarchist', your very good at parroting the lines of the 'boss class' you affect to despise.

And the SNP don't represent a boss class?

eh? last time I looked they were a political party. You're now claiming that the SNP represent a new strata in class analysis, alongside proletariat, bourgeoisie, and aristocracy? confused

i)Anyone who proclaims Scottish Nationalism has an irrational fetish, a longing for an outdated nation-state that would only repress working people if it were reinstated.

For all your insistent whines that nation states are 'outdated', they seem to have outlasted the USSRs warped interpretation of 'Marxism', and the rather feeble attempts of 'anarchists' to re-order the world. Go figure....

ii)No politician gives up their power voluntarily. So your claim that it would benefit ordinary people if we became independent is pish.

[b]If this were true then the British Empire would still exist, and power wouldn't have voluntarily been ceded to upwards of a dozen African states, Hong Kong's sovereignty handed to the Chinese, de Klerk wouldn't have sat down with Mandela to end apartheid, etc....

iii)And if you don't hate the English, why do you want to set up a seperate Nation state? To persecute Scottish people better?

Because I believe Scots would make a better fist of running Scotland for themselves. That belief doesn't necessitate a hatred of the English, however much you might wish it did.

iv)I fail to understand why you insist these arguments aren't valid, they are in the overwhelming majority of cases, and I would suspect, in yours.

because you've been talking out your arse for the last ten pages. Forgive me for failing to be wowed and impressed.

No, based on observation of the real world, wherever Nations get seperated from previous larger nation states, then there is an upsurge in Racism. You can deny this and say it's conjecture, just like you denied that wars in the past have been founded on Nationalism, but I think the facts bear me out.

so, er, Estonia and Lithuania has witnessed, erm, an upsurge of racism? East Timoreans are racist towards Indonesians? Norwegians were racist towards Swedes in 1905? Icelanders were racist towards danes in 1944? The facts you select may bear part of your case out- unfortunately the facts you omit rather mitigate against it.

You may have denied that realpolitik has any effect in Scotland, but you won't get very far in the real world like that, I'm afraid

If you can produce the quote where I denied that relapolitik has any effect in Scotland I shall retract it. Regrettably, your difficulty with basic reading comprehension seems to have led to your imagining what I think- yet again.