Class composition of the Police?
Oct 9 2004 17:31
okay following the question about graduates joining the peelers i'd like to hear what class most peelers in the UK (mainland 
) are from.
as i said over here cops tend to be working class with no qualifications, tho this is changing abit as there are more and more students joining. So does this represent the peelers becoming more middle class (more like a proper proffession with all this community care bollox etc etc) or does it point to the increasingly proletarising (i think i made that word up) of graduates.
Oct 10 2004 21:27
#2
PaulMarsh wrote:
Pretty obviously a beat cop should be classified as working class
I suppose it depends on what way you're looking at class but whatever their backgroud I wouldn't say any coppers are working class. Once they've put on the unifrom they've tied themselves to the wishes of the ruling class.
Oct 10 2004 21:48
#3
nastyned i think there is a distinct defference between tying urself to the agenda of the ruling class and being ruling class.
what about soldiers ur not seriously going to tellme that they are not working class. obviously there will be differences eg the army is generally used to contain foreign working classes whilst the cops are directly involved in the containment and oppression of thier own working class.
i'd say that the ordinary cop is working class, doesn't mean that they aren't an enemy, afterall there are plenty of working class fascists.
Oct 11 2004 12:39
#4
Surely the thing to do with this thread is invite the cops who trawl this site looking for anarcho-naughtiness to get themselves usernames & post their own replies.
Oct 12 2004 15:10
#5
In my experience the 2 lads I know joined the police -dunno if still in - were looking for a career... one not nicking anybody doing drugs in his presence... The other, 'middle of the road... You could say it's very much like 'Britain' as a whole, the police are part of the middle class ethos, and that ethos says, work, play by the rules, or else... The 'middle class' being an apolitical respectable description, though Mr Marsh has described the lower rungs well... There are increasing numbers of graduates going in too, and former cops who are lecturing at universities encourage that process to have a 'Sandhurst' effect - an officer class on accelerated promotion...
Oct 12 2004 18:49
#6
From what i know, most beat police, riot police and junior police officers are recruited from middle and upper working class backgrounds.
However i think a lot of graduates get inducted into police administration and of course criminal investigation. At least i imagine that redyred was talking about sociology graduates that is most liekly they'd join because they were attracted by the criminology angle.
I don'T think the police are middle class at all the pay isn't that great (Although you do get a big fat pension at the end of it) and the ethos is different, the puritan work ethic they endorse probably bears more similarity to certain sections of the petit bourgeoisie than the middle class, and their class origins are definitely working class.
john
Oct 12 2004 19:42
#7
hmmm this peeler work ethic, where have u seen that? the cops i know are quite lazy, generally resent their job and often try to avoid doing any actual work.
maybe its different in england cos they don't get shot at or blown up. 
Oct 12 2004 21:04
#8
Police pay is good from the start (compared to manual jobs) and it compares very well with university lecturers (i is unemployed)
Also, they don't like real work;) The sickness rates are so shocking that even the right wing Home Sec Blunkett wanted to clamp down on it... They always drama queen up their 'injuries' and make them up, to get convictions and time off... Also, they NEVER serve more than 30 years, cos then they can retire on FULL PENSION (V. good) SO, enter at 18, leave at 48...
Oct 13 2004 07:56
#9
I once knew a woman who worked as a special constable (i.e. unpaid) weekend nights in a particularly rough area. She was definitely from a working class background but married into the middle class and had a family etc. Say what you like about cops in general, but you have to respect someone who willing to do that kind of shift for nothing more than general principle.
Oct 13 2004 08:53
#10
revol68 wrote:
maybe its different in england cos they don't get shot at or blown up.
The spoilt English bastards!
Are you trying to tell us that those Presbytarian pigs in Paisley's Ulster don't have the Protestant work ethic? Ulster really is doomed!
Oct 13 2004 23:55
#11
Ceannairc wrote:
I once knew a woman who worked as a special constable (i.e. unpaid) weekend nights in a particularly rough area. She was definitely from a working class background but married into the middle class and had a family etc. Say what you like about cops in general, but you have to respect someone who willing to do that kind of shift for nothing more than general principle.
Eh, no. This is an insane example of the 'serve the community/do something good' line of reasoning used by a lot of people for their reason for joining up. Don't think someone willing to put up with 'that kind of shift' for nothing deserves respect. One they must be nuts to do that for free and two well its that protection of private property shit isn't it.
But then I suppose cops in the north over the years often had more up front ideological commitment to the 'defence of the state' over here than would be the case inother areas. Definately a more political commitment to defend Ulster, up until the late eighties at least, in joining the RUC.
Oct 14 2004 08:12
#12
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Eh, no. This is an insane example of the 'serve the community/do something good' line of reasoning used by a lot of people for their reason for joining up. Don't think someone willing to put up with 'that kind of shift' for nothing deserves respect. One they must be nuts to do that for free and two well its that protection of private property shit isn't it.
I don't agree with the politics of it, but I still admire the dedication. Hell I wouldn't do that stuff even if I did believe in it. Even if they paid me. It's just a shame that it was wasted on the police service...
edited for formatting...
Oct 14 2004 09:18
#13
revol68 wrote:
okay following the question about graduates joining the peelers i'd like to hear what class most peelers in the UK (mainlandas i said over here cops tend to be working class with no qualifications, tho this is changing abit as there are more and more students joining. So does this represent the peelers becoming more middle class (more like a proper proffession with all this community care bollox etc etc) or does it point to the increasingly proletarising (i think i made that word up) of graduates.
I think that represents the police becoming an increasingly more attractive proposition to students with useless degrees, and also the definate proletarising (i like it, we keep using it, might become a real word!) of students.
Ill be burned as a witch for this, but i actually considered it, couldnt see myself getting a job doing anything exciting and police was a steady job, a pension, and not the army (my dad was a soldier, he was always "why dont you join up?", if you knew me youd understand thats mental).
You just sort of look at whats there, and whats realistic. I mean you could try and be a journalist or something, but can it really happen? That leaves you with postman, builder, plumber, policeman...
And finally, you know before the wars there was actually a police union, and there was a police strike in London once. It was broken up with pay offers, and then made illegal. So perhaps theres hope...
Oct 14 2004 20:02
#14
Yeah;
1907 docks strike in Belfast as well as havin prods & taigs fighting together in pursuit of class interests also saw a police mutiny and attempted strike for better pay and working conditions. Other cops and army drafted in from the countryside to sort it. Lots of talk and fear of 'revolution' at the time - mostly from the shittin themselves establishment.
How does that hold up now? Screws have 'started', or rather been so good at pulling organised sickies that its got called the 'blue flu'. Something various anarchos have called for to mark May Day in an ineffectual manner over the years. Ineffectual because you sort of have to be working with people and aware of on the job issues to organise this sort of 'unofficial' action, not outside demanding it for, even the best of, ideological reasons. Does that mean we should all join the prison service or cops and promote class concious activity and resistance on the job? Nah, no at all. And certainly not for free.
I mean I only sell my time to capitalist to make money to live that expoloit me for free stuff is mad (but sure I'm repeatin myself now).
However it does seem likely that given class background (so in relation to the thread I'd say cops are mostly working class) that in a more militant or revolutionary atmosphere these sorts of difficulties will arise again and maybe we can count on some cops or soldiers not to act against us. But in the meantime fuck em, they're not to be trusted. Sorry but its the nature of their job that makes them untrustworthy even tho many maight be lovely people, good parents, extremely liberal or whatever else when off (even sometimes on) duty.
Bye
Oct 15 2004 12:49
#15
Yeah, thats true. Not to mention they have to deal with the people this society has fucked up everyday, that makes them cynical i think. Ive found that they either seem to go the way of "nothing surprises me" or just turn into a complete twat, as they get older.
And as for if you could rely on them in a revolutionary situation, i think youd be better of with the soldiers. I mean, the squaddies are overwhelmingly working class and you could never deny that. My dads side of the family has always been a strong army recruitment base, and there are dockers in that family tree as well.
Oct 15 2004 13:27
#16
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
I mean I only sell my time to capitalist to make money to live that expoloit me for free stuff is mad (but sure I'm repeatin myself now).
However it does seem likely that given class background (so in relation to the thread I'd say cops are mostly working class) that in a more militant or revolutionary atmosphere these sorts of difficulties will arise again and maybe we can count on some cops or soldiers not to act against us. But in the meantime fuck em, they're not to be trusted. Sorry but its the nature of their job that makes them untrustworthy even tho many maight be lovely people, good parents, extremely liberal or whatever else when off (even sometimes on) duty.
Bye
...er no-one was argueing that they were on our side at the moment
We were just trying to get a more concrete analysis. I mean if you were dealing with combating police and army recruitment, you'd have to look at which sectors of society they're recruiting from and focus efforts around those categories.
And yeah i agree, you can't join the police to promote class struggle, obviously that would be liberal bollocks.
john
Oct 15 2004 18:20
#17
er..., good 'cause I was just pointing something out, not arguing with anyone. 
Read in relation to the rest of my post I was pointing out that cops had in the past developed some form of class conciousness and acted on it - however limited - but that (in relation to the bit where you seem to think I was arguing) this doesn't mean we can trust any of them. Just in case anyone thought I was being some sort of liberal wanker.
Oct 16 2004 12:49
#18
Oh yeah, definately, the police wouldnt exactly be the place to start when you want to radicalise the workers... And when i say i thought about it, i went off that idea pretty quick!
Quite a complicated one this, as the cops can (and do) present a position that they are classless - the highest Chief Constable has started out "on the beat" and even their graduate recuits have to do a fixed term as beat Constables. They state that they are, in effect, a meritocracy.
From the two kids I was at school with who went on to be cops, and two I know who got close but knocked back, I would say that all four could be loosely described as lower middle class/ upper working class - all had some qualifications, families with jobs and they could have chosen to do other things (unlike the kids I knew who went into the armed forces) They chose the police as a career.
Pretty obviously a beat cop should be classified as working class - they are doing a mostly physical job, that requires very basic administrative skills, and they are pretty much at the bottom of the hierarchy within their own organisation.
One final qulaification - traditionally in London maany (probably a majority) of cops have come from outside greater London. If you were to be pulled by 5 cops on the way home from the pub, you could probably expect no more than two of them to have London accents.
Pretty obviously the Met will never meet its targets for recruiting black/Asian officers whilst it continues to rely on labour from the north, Scotland and N Ireland.
The higher up the police structure you go, the higher up the class pyramid the cop rises, to the extent where a member of ACPO (the Association of Chief Police Officers) is very cleary a significant player in the establishment.