Crime and Punishment - the death penalty
Oct 31 2007 19:42
I was watching the local news last night and heard a pretty disturbing story: a 22 year old waitress at a local Hooters left her 17 month old kid in her car during her entire 7 hour day shift.
I live in Phoenix AZ so it's pretty warm even in October; in her area the temperature reached around 90 degrees with the car's interior peaking at over 100 degrees.
The child obviously died.
People were alerted to this fact when she began screaming after finding her dead kid still in the car seat. Upon her arrest she claimed that she "forgot to drop the kid off ad day care" while on her way to work.
This of course is the very same story concocted by another lady 3 years earlier here in Phoenix to explain why she left her baby to die in her car while she was at work - she was never charged with a crime.
Now, speculating that the woman purposely left her kid in the car based on the case 3 years ago, do you think that the death penalty should be applied?
I personally am in favour of the death penalty generally however since so many people have been executed only to be exonerated at a later date by DNA evidence I am very against it's application under the current judicial system unless very specific requirements are met.
By "very specific requirements" I mean the person must freely admit guilt outside of police coercion and provide evidence to support the claim. For example, a person admits to killing 6 people and provides the location of the bodies which are indeed found there after investigation.
I'm interested to see how this community reacts to the initial question and what their take is on the death penalty so let me know what you think.
Nov 1 2007 07:01
#2
Bill Shatner wrote:
I personally am in favour of the death penalty generally however since so many people have been executed only to be exonerated at a later date by DNA evidence I am very against it's application under the current judicial system unless very specific requirements are met.By "very specific requirements" I mean the person must freely admit guilt outside of police coercion and provide evidence to support the claim. For example, a person admits to killing 6 people and provides the location of the bodies which are indeed found there after investigation.
Sorry mate but what a load of bollocks... Firstly, have you got a judicial system in mind that's fair and reasonable enough to decide who lives and who dies? i certainly don't have faith in anyone to decide that. Secondly, how do you prove that there was no police coercian? What, the person, who to avoid further coercian techniques - fuck it , we'll call it torture, says "no I wasn't coerced". Thirdly, just 'cos someone admits something and shows where the bodies are, does that mean that they didn't regret it, or that there wasn't some other factors that contrbuted to the deaths? Maybe they were mentally ill, maybe they had been abused, maybe...
Too many what if's for me. Also, have you any idea what the process of death row is like. Can you even contemplate that walking or dragging someone to the room where they are about to be executed is in ANY way humane, despite whatever the person may have done. These thoughts make me ill in the stomach and I have to say that arguments like you have put forth scare the shit out of me.
Finally, the way you mention that a woman "concocted" a story about accidently leaving their kid in a car and alluded to the idea that this woman had too "concocted" her story demonstrates to me that you are a bit of a dick who clearly doesn't have kids yourself or considers the possible life circumstances and pressures that a young parent can face. I don't think you should be anywhere as self rightious and judgemental as you are coming across.
This isn't intended to be an attack but as evidenced, I have really fucking strong feelings about this...
Nov 1 2007 11:22
#3
I'm only in favour of a death sentence for people like Bush and Blair.Although maybe locking them up for the rest of their lives would be a worse punishment.I am against the death sentence for ordinary people because inocent people always get killed by the system.
Nov 1 2007 11:23
#4
And it doesn't work.
Nov 1 2007 11:43
#5
BlackFlag wrote:
I'm only in favour of a death sentence for people like Bush and Blair.Although maybe locking them up for the rest of their lives would be a worse punishment.I am against the death sentence for ordinary people because inocent people always get killed by the system.
I'm not exactly sure how killing them is going to change the 'system' though BlackFlag and after all they were voted in with a mandate to do whatever they wanted for the term of their governance, such is the nature of this kind of 'democracy'. Does that mean hunting down all those that voted for them then too?
All the best.
gregg 
Nov 1 2007 16:49
#6
greg wrote:
Firstly, have you got a judicial system in mind that's fair and reasonable enough to decide who lives and who dies?
I'm fairly certain that the "judicial system" in a communist society will be much better than the one that exists today.
Quote:
Secondly, how do you prove that there was no police coercian?
There is aways police coercion; that's what those thugs are paid for. I think you need to reread my initial post.
Quote:
Thirdly, just 'cos someone admits something and shows where the bodies are, does that mean that they didn't regret it,
Who cares if they "regret it"?
Quote:
Maybe they were mentally ill, maybe they had been abused, maybe...
Of course they are mentally ill and probably were abused. So what?
Quote:
Also, have you any idea what the process of death row is like.
I have several years of prison time under my belt so I'm pretty sure I'm much more familiar with the process than you.
Quote:
Can you even contemplate that walking or dragging someone to the room where they are about to be executed is in ANY way humane, despite whatever the person may have done.
This is simple liberal nonsense.
I can care less if a serial murderer is "humiliated" prior to their execution.
Quote:
These thoughts make me ill in the stomach and I have to say that arguments like you have put forth scare the shit out of me.
We know where you will be during the revolution - as far from the actual fighting as possible.
I'm sure you will be the first in line to "reap the rewards" however.
Quote:
Finally, the way you mention that a woman "concocted" a story about accidently leaving their kid in a car and alluded to the idea that this woman had too "concocted" her story demonstrates to me that you are a bit of a dick who clearly doesn't have kids yourself or considers the possible life circumstances and pressures that a young parent can face
Spare me.
People don't just "forget" a 17 month old baby int he back of a car.
If you have any experience at all with toddlers you would know that a 17 month old kid wouldn't let you forget.
It's also been reported from her family and the father of the child that she allegedly claimed she no longer wanted the child around because all it did was "cry all the time".
Since you're in your "bleeding heart liberal" phase perhaps you would also like to apologise for the crusades, the holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition.
Quote:
his isn't intended to be an attack but as evidenced, I have really fucking strong feelings about this...
you wrote:
you are a bit of a dick
Make up your mind jack.
Nov 1 2007 17:32
#7
Fuck it would be great to live in your black and white world mate where YOU decide. It is kinda cool though how you only give out part of a story so as to elicit the responses that you want. I also love it when people dig out their criminal records as a badge of honour. Fucking hard as! Unless it was for something political each time comrade I'm not that impressed and even then seeing as though you haven't impressed me too much so far, I STILL wouldn't be impressed. It's your ridiculous simplification of things that scares me not anything else and as for the 'actual fighting' in the revolution... I've got an image of you already tooled up and ready GI Joe style in front of the telly watching an old documentary on Spain 1936, beer in one hand, remote or dick in the other singing songs of the revolution... And finally... Yep, have made up my mind... You are a dick.
Oh yeah, let me know next time you're inside, I'll send you some colouring in books.
edited to add: so you got arseholed from revleft why?
Nov 1 2007 18:18
#8
gregg wrote:
Fuck it would be great to live in your black and white world mate where YOU decide. It is kinda cool though how you only give out part of a story so as to elicit the responses that you want.
Here you go son, read it for yourself.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/1031baby1031.html
Quote:
I also love it when people dig out their criminal records as a badge of honour. Fucking hard as!
Harder than you will ever be I'm certain.
Quote:
Unless it was for something political each time comrade I'm not that impressed and even then seeing as though you haven't impressed me too much so far, I STILL wouldn't be impressed.
Not that it's any of your business but 2 of the years were for political reasons - in any case I can care less if some cat I will never meet is "impressed" with me.
Quote:
I've got an image of you already tooled up and ready GI Joe style in front of the telly watching an old documentary on Spain 1936, beer in one hand,
No chance son.
Little costumes and dreams of being a "hero in the revolution" are for kids nearer to your age than mine.
Quote:
You are a dick.
The feeling is mutual little guy.
Quote:
edited to add: so you got arseholed from revleft why?
For not putting up with bullshit artists - like yourself.
Nov 1 2007 18:30
#9
Bill Shatner wrote:
Harder than you will ever be I'm certain.
Comedy genius 
Take a bow son
I shit bigger turds than you
You really are a tool aren't you lad?
Making words in bold is pretty fucking intimidating too I must say so
I really was serious about the colouring in books though... just let me know in which gaol and in which country you'll be in and I'll get it sorted. 
So not to bruise your hard man image further I'll leave you to have the final word 
Nov 1 2007 18:37
#10
why act like a hardman - by your own admission, on the internet bill?
Quote:
Harder than you will ever be I'm certain.
not necessarily smarter tho! i suspect there's infact an inverse correlation there somewhere..
Nov 1 2007 18:55
#11
the Irish Don Ciccio wrote:
I shit bigger turds than you
Of course you do dear.
Quote:
Making words in bold is pretty fucking intimidating too I must say so
You're confused.
Stress inflections are not simply used as a "method of intimidation". If you can pull your nose out of the Bushmill's bottle long enough to look up what simple grammar is you wouldn't embarrass yourself again.
lem wrote:
why act like a hardman - by your own admission, on the internet bill?
Hmmm you cats really have a strange perception of life.
Quote:
not necessarily smarter tho! i suspect there's infact an inverse correlation there somewhere..
This coming from the cat who's sentences are usually simple gibberish.
That's rich.
Nov 1 2007 19:40
#12
Bill Shatner wrote:
lem wrote:
why act like a hardman - by your own admission, on the internet bill?Hmmm you cats really have a strange perception of life.
Quote:
not necessarily smarter tho! i suspect there's infact an inverse correlation there somewhere..This coming from the cat who's sentences are usually simple gibberish.
That's rich.
my sentences aren't gibbership they're just quaintly worded.
all the internet hardmen i've met have been wankers tbh.
Nov 1 2007 20:47
#13
lem wrote:
my sentences aren't gibbership they're just quaintly worded.
"Quaintly worded" must be code for gibberish where you come from.
Quote:
all the internet hardmen i've met have been wankers tbh.
How does mentioning that I did prison time while talking about a prison subject make me an "internet hard guy" ?
Like I said, some of you cats have a warped sense of reality.
In reality, "internet tough guys" are the ones that are always talking about how "bad ass" they are and how they would "kick everyone's ass" - sometimes even going so far as to challenge people who live on other continents to fights.
What I did was let some loudmouthed, punk kid know that if he wanted to take off his arm floaties and jump into the deep end he was probably going to drown.
Nov 1 2007 21:04
#14
Bill Shatner wrote:
In reality, "internet tough guys" are the ones that are always talking about how "bad ass" they are and how they would "kick everyone's ass" - sometimes even going so far as to challenge people who live on other continents to fights.What I did was let some loudmouthed, punk kid know that if he wanted to take off his arm floaties and jump into the deep end he was probably going to drown.
well... i don't see the difference. beside which i find the routine kinda sweet so there, just don't be surprised if i come over to what flea infested shithole brothel you call home and fuck with your marbles you scumbag
Nov 1 2007 21:37
#15
lem wrote:
just don't be surprised if i come over to what flea infested shithole brothel you call home and fuck with your marbles you scumbag
... and with that I request lem to be on my buddy list 
Bill Shatner wrote:
What I did was let some loudmouthed, punk kid know that if he wanted to take off his arm floaties and jump into the deep end he was probably going to drown.
It's all about the details... and you can't even get the basics right I'm afraid I suppose that's why you end up in gaol huh?... going off half cocked? Tsk Tsk wee man.
While it's been fun seeing you spit chips, I kinda feel sorry for you now. Now really, don't forget about the colouring in books... I'll see if I can find one with a goose in it for you. Oh yeah, in my profile you'll find my email address. Let me know where you are through that. Bye bye little one.
Nov 1 2007 21:49
#16
lemming wrote:
just don't be surprised if i come over to what flea infested shithole brothel you call home and fuck with your marbles you scumbag
5800 N 19th ave #208
Phoenix, AZ 85015
Let me know when your parents give you permission to fly all by your lonesome and I'll be sure to wait for you.
Bring your little friend with you.
Nov 1 2007 21:58
#17
well I'M convinced.
Nov 1 2007 22:00
#18
Bill Shatner wrote:
Bring your little friend with you.
Buddy... it's Buddy, and lem hasn't approved me yet. Also, despite all of your angry, though amusing posturing I really do think that you should consider removing your address from your last post. Calm down enough to think a little smarter... That's the 'going off half cocked' stuff I'm talking about.
Nov 1 2007 22:32
#19
Quote:
uddy... it's Buddy, and lem hasn't approved me yet. neutral Also, despite all of your angry, though amusing posturing I really do think that you should consider removing your address from your last post. Calm down enough to think a little smarter... That's the 'going off half cocked' stuff I'm talking about.
Who said it was my address?
Nov 1 2007 22:42
#20
Wooooo... Spooky
Watch out lem... the tewwible Bill Shatner has set a vewy twicky twap for you. Pwease don't hurt lem bad man Bill. Or is that the address of the gaol to send the colouring books to?
Whatever... I just don't think it's wise to be publishing addresses
BUCS 2008 
Nov 1 2007 23:09
#21
Bill Shatner wrote:
lemming wrote:
just don't be surprised if i come over to what flea infested shithole brothel you call home and fuck with your marbles you scumbag5800 N 19th ave #208
Phoenix, AZ 85015
Relationship Coaches Inc.?
Nov 1 2007 23:22
#22
that's funny! Did you think of that one all by yourself Bill Shatner or did your parole officer suggest it as a neutral place to meet the people who are making little Billy mad
Nov 1 2007 23:25
#23
Let's give him the benefit of the doubt -- he probably just wants to mend his relationship with you two.
Nov 1 2007 23:50
#24
mikus wrote:
Let's give him the benefit of the doubt -- he probably just wants to mend his relationship with you two.
Sure. 
Though I don't think that he'll want to be our friend. Afterall hard men like him that've been in gaol in three different countries don't take no shit man...
"fuck them all" - right Bill?
Nov 2 2007 00:33
#25
gregg wrote:
lem wrote:
just don't be surprised if i come over to what flea infested shithole brothel you call home and fuck with your marbles you scumbag... and with that I request lem to be on my buddy list
and found the perfect new tagline
Nov 2 2007 00:35
#26
He may have copyrighted it...
Nov 2 2007 01:25
#27
Bill Shatner wrote:
Who cares if they "regret it"?People don't just "forget" a 17 month old baby int he back of a car.
If you have any experience at all with toddlers you would know that a 17 month old kid wouldn't let you forget.
The fact that someone regrets a crime is an important factor. It shows that their less likely to do it again that their willing to at least attempt to conform to the justice system whatever it may be.
Leaving a baby in the car though doesn’t seem that extraordinary, running late forgetting things busy day with no time to think, it’d only take a small lapse. Its not that crazy to think its could be an accident when compared to some other stuff like folks putting babies in microwaves
Bill Shatner wrote:
Harder than you will ever be I'm certain.
whats with all the foreplay talk anyway?
Nov 2 2007 13:16
#28
lrnec wrote:
The fact that someone regrets a crime is an important factor. It shows that their less likely to do it again that their willing to at least attempt to conform to the justice system whatever it may be.Leaving a baby in the car though doesn’t seem that extraordinary, running late forgetting things busy day with no time to think, it’d only take a small lapse. Its not that crazy to think its could be an accident when compared to some other stuff like folks putting babies in microwaves
exactly. I imagine a sleep-deprived person who'd been let down by her daycare arrangements would be quite capable of doing this.
In this case in particular we have two questions. Did she deliberately kill the baby? and Was she negligent?
It doesn't in the least sound like it was on purpose. She was negligent but I think the fact that her negligence killed her child is a massive penalty in itself.
Nov 2 2007 16:30
#29
mik wrote:
Relationship Coaches Inc.?
I have no idea what's in there now. It used to be my old office before I moved down the street to a bigger joint.
irnec wrote:
The fact that someone regrets a crime is an important factor.
In some minor cases sure.
Other cases such as murders committed by people who suffer from a sociopathic inability to regret can't logically fit into your cookie cutter paradigm.
What then?
Quote:
It shows that their less likely to do it again that their willing to at least attempt to conform to the justice system whatever it may be.
So what happens if the "regret" shown is just a lie?
Quote:
Leaving a baby in the car though doesn’t seem that extraordinary,
Perhaps it's not "extraordinary" on Neptune but here on planet earth it sure the hell is.
Quote:
running late forgetting things busy day with no time to think, it’d only take a small lapse
What a bunch of hooey.
"Running a bit late" would never cause a responsible parent that loves their child to "forget" that the child was in the back seat of their car after putting that child there themselves.
Some of you cats are really goofy.
Quote:
Its not that crazy to think its could be an accident
Sure it "could be an accident" - I'll put the odds at about 10 billion to one
jef wrote:
Did she deliberately kill the baby? and Was she negligent?
More than likely it's "yes" to both questions.
Quote:
It doesn't in the least sound like it was on purpose
You must have a crazy view of reality if you think it "doesn't in the least" appear premeditated.
I bet you think O.J. was innocent too...
Nov 2 2007 16:52
#30
Bill Shatner wrote:
mik wrote:
Relationship Coaches Inc.?irnec wrote:
The fact that someone regrets a crime is an important factor.In some minor cases sure.
Other cases such as murders committed by people who suffer from a sociopathic inability to regret can't logically fit into your cookie cutter paradigm.
What then?
Well you have just answered your own question here, if they are inable to feel regret then they obviously can't regret the crime so fall nicely into my little cookie cutter ok?
Quote:
So what happens if the "regret" shown is just a lie?
Of course that is always a problem, sincerity has to be tested so to speak, it’s why people who truly regret crimes no matter how big or small still are hit with the full punishment because they weren’t believes and visey vera. I’d have mentioned it but it seemed obvious.
Quote:
Leaving a baby in the car though doesn’t seem that extraordinary,
Perhaps it's not "extraordinary" on Neptune but here on planet earth it sure the hell is.
"Running a bit late" would never cause a responsible parent that loves their child to "forget" that the child was in the back seat of their car after putting that child there themselves.
People do it all the time sweetie, even just for 5 mins the babies sleeping in the car completely quiet you’ve just spent the past twenty minutes putting the shopping in the house or something then someone calls on the phone your distracted etc etc. I’d agree that leaving a baby in the car for several hours on a work shift is an exceptional stretch but don’t dismiss the idea that someone who loves their child could ever forget about it even momentarily.
Quote:
jef wrote:
Did she deliberately kill the baby? and Was she negligent?More than likely it's "yes" to both questions.
You have no way of knowing for certain and as you said there is a chance that it was a genuine accident, even 10 billion to one odds are guaranteed to pay off every now and then.
no never fot it tbh :-/ but neither would i get violent over the concept, as long as i'm under zero threat.
eta does that make me a protestant