Debate in the CNT

90 posts / 0 new
Last post
Mark.
Offline
Joined: 11-02-07
Dec 14 2010 10:43

There's more discussion (in Spanish) of the CNT congress on this alasbarricadas thread

http://www.alasbarricadas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=48904&start=75

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Dec 14 2010 11:23

Nothing much worth reading there.

Mark.
Offline
Joined: 11-02-07
Dec 18 2010 12:33
akai wrote:
Nothing much worth reading there.

That thread is ongoing and there's more being posted. I'd agree that like most of these threads on alasbarricadas there's more tedious bickering than interesting discussion - the signal to noise ratio tends to be quite low. There's still some interesting stuff comes up though. For instance this article by Manu Garcia:

http://www.alasbarricadas.org/noticias/?q=node/16135

deerbusker's picture
deerbusker
Offline
Joined: 16-11-10
Jan 2 2011 17:32
Quote:
As I see it classical anarchism has not known how to adequately conceptualise power. Worse still militants often deal with it at a stroke saying that power is repression or that power corrupts. But power is extremely complex. [Italics mine]

I don't understand this sentence. Please elaborate. We don't want loaded rhetoric.

Volin's picture
Volin
Offline
Joined: 24-01-05
Jan 2 2011 22:52
Mark. wrote:
akai wrote:
Nothing much worth reading there.

That thread is ongoing and there's more being posted. I'd agree that like most of these threads on alasbarricadas there's more tedious bickering than interesting discussion - the signal to noise ratio tends to be quite low. There's still some interesting stuff comes up though. For instance this article by Manu Garcia:

http://www.alasbarricadas.org/noticias/?q=node/16135

And in English here.

Mark.
Offline
Joined: 11-02-07
Jan 2 2011 23:28

Thanks - now in the library http://libcom.org/library/10th-congress-cnt

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Jan 3 2011 11:28

I don't find that article too interesting as it represents a cliche interpretation of one faction of the CNT and gives no concrete information at all, just throwing around slogans appealing to platformists without any details.

Mark.
Offline
Joined: 11-02-07
Jan 3 2011 12:07

I thought that one of the problems with it is that it's trying to put a positive spin on things and doesn't really analyse the present or past divisions in the CNT. Maybe this is less important for people in Spain who know the background anyway, but it doesn't really aid understanding for people who don't read Spanish.

The author is a member of CNT Sevilla and posts quite a bit on alasbarricadas. I'd say he's usually a reliable source of information but the article does need to be read as a view from one side of the fault line in the CNT.

deerbusker's picture
deerbusker
Offline
Joined: 16-11-10
Jan 3 2011 14:55

I see and I am sorry it had to be this way. I never really wanted it to be like this. It belongs to whoever wants it.

He writes well (an agitator?), polemically of Anarchism. It is as though he holds a sense of inertia about power. Don't you agree?

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Jan 3 2011 15:38

I don't question the relability or even sincerity of the author. I agree with what Mark writes and it seems to be that CNTistas themselves don't feel like discussing these issues on forums like this and prefer private discussion, which is fine. Let them deal with their issues in peace.

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Jan 4 2011 06:00
syndicalist wrote:
circleamatt:
Quote:
The way Beltran, the author, described it to me was that the FAI constitutes the "orthodox" faction in the CNT, and plays a very authoritarian role. This is exaserbated by the fact that the FAI is not a public organization, and so its conduct in the CNT is unaccountable to anyone.

Funny, this is the same critcism of the FAI I heard in the years after the CNT re-emerged in post-Franco Spain.

What makes me curious, is what lesson can be learned in terms of anarchist political organization? How does the alleged methods of the FAI reflect any problems with, say, the concept of organizational duality? For me, I think this is a very fundemental and current isssue.

i don't know just be public about it, lol

from talking to a cnt comrade that was from our city in the usa, she seems to be from the heterodox camp. she is actually an international sub-secretary for the union and translates most of the articles into english on cnt.es basically it seems that some locals wanted to be able to go on demos with other unions, instead of having to organize every last thing in house...seems pretty reasonable to me.

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Jan 4 2011 06:05
akai wrote:

- Each of the CNT union is free to interact with other organizations, if it sees fit.

- There should be the promotion of self-production and consumer
initiatives (cooperatives)

basically this is what i heard...

also we got centennial wine!

syndicalist
Offline
Joined: 15-04-06
Jan 4 2011 20:14
sabotage wrote:
syndicalist wrote:
circleamatt:
Quote:
The way Beltran, the author, described it to me was that the FAI constitutes the "orthodox" faction in the CNT, and plays a very authoritarian role. This is exaserbated by the fact that the FAI is not a public organization, and so its conduct in the CNT is unaccountable to anyone.

Funny, this is the same critcism of the FAI I heard in the years after the CNT re-emerged in post-Franco Spain.

What makes me curious, is what lesson can be learned in terms of anarchist political organization? How does the alleged methods of the FAI reflect any problems with, say, the concept of organizational duality? For me, I think this is a very fundemental and current isssue.

i don't know just be public about it, lol

I believe there are legal issues with the State concerning the FAI. For many, many years they were outlawed, even in the post-Franco period.

Anyway, the FAI have taken a position inside the CNT against participation in so-called union elections. The FAI is, in fact, pretty consistant in that regard.

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Oct 6 2014 18:33

I saw this article "Ganemos El Puerto inicia el camino para concurrir a las elecciones locales" [auto-translation] being shared on social networks today, and remembered this discussion about Beltran Roca and the direction he is wanting the CNT to go in.

Can someone (with a sound grasp of castellano) help explain what is going on in that article? Is he promoting local government elections? Is he nominating himself as a candidate? Is he against social partnership, for worker control?

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Oct 6 2014 19:14

He's promoting but there is no info he is a candidate.
There seem to be some people in Andalucia CNT that are too close to parties and elections and it is bothering people. Rightfully so.

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Oct 6 2014 19:20

Thanks akai. I agree. No doubt more info will become available from this presentation, which is this Thursday...

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Oct 7 2014 18:08

There are some more things already floating around the internet. Can PM links.

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Oct 7 2014 22:38

Yes, please do. I prefer to know what's going on - warts and all.

melenas
Offline
Joined: 10-12-14
Dec 24 2014 09:14
AES wrote:
I saw this article "Ganemos El Puerto inicia el camino para concurrir a las elecciones locales" [auto-translation] being shared on social networks today, and remembered this discussion about Beltran Roca and the direction he is wanting the CNT to go in.

Can someone (with a sound grasp of castellano) help explain what is going on in that article? Is he promoting local government elections? Is he nominating himself as a candidate? Is he against social partnership, for worker control?

Before this happened beltran roca resigned as secretary of his local union. As its known, members of parties can join CNT what they cant be is secretaries or have any responsibility in CNT in any level. also the local union make a notification saying that respect the decision of beltran but as union they are against the elections and don't give any support to any party or candidate to any election. also what i know is that beltran only take part in the assembly of Ganemos, and don't want to take part in the elections (Ganemos are assemblies of people os social movement that in someplace toke toke the decision to take part in local elections).

this not affect to CNT anarchosindicalist strategy in any way and don't go farther than a personal decision of a militant of CNT.

i hope this help you

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Dec 24 2014 15:03

Thanks melenas, that's interesting, can you please share website links about these events and decisions? I'm also interested in CNT providing venues/resources for Ganemos government election meetings, which I understand has been an issue with some CNT locals?

Maybe you know about the relations/involvement of Left Unity government election candidates from mandated members of CNT in Canarias? see CNT de Santa Cruz de Tenerife "Secretaria de Organización: Gisela Acosta Hernandez" and (Candidatura de Izquierda Unida Canaria al Ayuntamiento de La Orotava) "12 Doña Gisela Acosta Hernández"

militant-proletarian's picture
militant-proletarian
Offline
Joined: 12-12-14
Dec 26 2014 19:27
AES wrote:
Thanks melenas, that's interesting, can you please share website links about these events and decisions? I'm also interested in CNT providing venues/resources for Ganemos government election meetings, which I understand has been an issue with some CNT locals?

Maybe you know about the relations/involvement of Left Unity government election candidates from mandated members of CNT in Canarias? see CNT de Santa Cruz de Tenerife "Secretaria de Organización: Gisela Acosta Hernandez" and (Candidatura de Izquierda Unida Canaria al Ayuntamiento de La Orotava) "12 Doña Gisela Acosta Hernández"

So what? Are you so bored that you check google for possible "reformists" within the CNT? What if she was a IU candidate in 2011?

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Dec 26 2014 18:00

I have not said anywhere that this is information is from google nor called anyone "reformist", and "so what" or "boring" are not arguements for anything other than to belittle your target, instead of holding an opinion on collaboration with apparatus of capitalism and the state.

militant-proletarian's picture
militant-proletarian
Offline
Joined: 12-12-14
Dec 26 2014 19:26
AES wrote:
I have not said anywhere that this is information is from google nor called anyone "reformist", and "so what" or "boring" are not arguements for anything other than to belittle your target, instead of holding an opinion on collaboration with apparatus of capitalism and the state.

Totally confused, who is holding an opinion on collaboration with capitalism and state?

PS: bored not boring

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Dec 26 2014 19:45

If you read this whole thread you will notice that it concerns a discussion which began in 2007 about a political article by Beltrán Roca Martínez about anarcho-syndicalism. Validation of and participation with Ganemos in elections, is collaboration with apparatus of capitalism and the state (but that political position, seems to be a "personal" position, if he jumps through the correct hoops by resigning his CNT mandate at the correct time, and same for Doña [sic] Gisela Acosta Hernández).

militant-proletarian's picture
militant-proletarian
Offline
Joined: 12-12-14
Dec 26 2014 19:50

Gisela Acosta was a candidate in 2011. She is CNT secretary in Tenerife since 2014... So?

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Dec 26 2014 20:09

So in practice, these CNT members participate in elections tactically, deliberately and opportunistically in such a way that it suits the CNT statutes about members of political parties?

melenas, as I said above -

melenas wrote:
AES wrote:
I saw this article "Ganemos El Puerto inicia el camino para concurrir a las elecciones locales" [auto-translation] being shared on social networks today, and remembered this discussion about Beltran Roca and the direction he is wanting the CNT to go in.

Can someone (with a sound grasp of castellano) help explain what is going on in that article? Is he promoting local government elections? Is he nominating himself as a candidate? Is he against social partnership, for worker control?

Before this happened beltran roca resigned as secretary of his local union. As its known, members of parties can join CNT what they cant be is secretaries or have any responsibility in CNT in any level. also the local union make a notification saying that respect the decision of beltran but as union they are against the elections and don't give any support to any party or candidate to any election. also what i know is that beltran only take part in the assembly of Ganemos, and don't want to take part in the elections (Ganemos are assemblies of people os social movement that in someplace toke toke the decision to take part in local elections).

this not affect to CNT anarchosindicalist strategy in any way and don't go farther than a personal decision of a militant of CNT.

i hope this help you

AES wrote:
Thanks melenas, that's interesting, can you please share website links about these events and decisions? I'm also interested in CNT providing venues/resources for Ganemos government election meetings, which I understand has been an issue with some CNT locals?

militant-proletarian's picture
militant-proletarian
Offline
Joined: 12-12-14
Dec 26 2014 20:09

Tactically, deliberatelly or opportunistically? Gisela was part of IU in 2011 and after that she was disillusioned with the political game. I can't understand your obsession about collaborationism. The CNT statutes are clear: members of political parties can join CNT (but they can't be part of the respective secretariat). The same if they're catholic, buddist or whatever.

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Dec 26 2014 20:46

These arguements and controversies pop up on social networks, without background or detailed information, my spanish is not fluent enough.

It is understandable and reasonable for a worker organisation to be open to as many workers as possible, without alienating them needlessly before they become better aware of anarcho-syndicalism and it's methods and objectives of libertarian communism, so therefore the CNT statutes are broad and open to membership of workers in struggle.

However Beltrán Roca Martínez is not new to the CNT in fact he was the Secretary General of CNT Puerto in 2013 (see here), and his involement as a member of the group of promoters for Ganemos appears tactical, deliberate and opportunistic, see here.

MP, I am interested to know, are you saying that Gisela Acosta Hernández was not a CNT member in 2011, when she was a candidate in IU Ganemos?

Again, please can (melenas) share website links about the events and decisions mentioned above regarding CNT Puerto? I'm also interested in CNT providing venues/resources for Ganemos government election meetings, which I understand has been an issue with some CNT locals?

militant-proletarian's picture
militant-proletarian
Offline
Joined: 12-12-14
Dec 26 2014 20:48

Well, even if I don't personally agree with Beltrán about his participation, he's quite aware of the CNT statutes and is not doing anything anti-statutory or taking advantage of the union to participate in Ganemos. Beltrán is just one member, not the whole CNT Seville.

On the other hand, I can assert that Gisela was not member of CNT Tenerife in 2011. In any case, there was no Ganemos platform in 2011.

AES's picture
AES
Offline
Joined: 15-02-04
Dec 26 2014 21:48

No-one was saying that Beltrán Roca was doing anything against CNT statutes. His involvement as a member of the group of promoters for Ganemos has been shared here because it is relevant to the discussion of this thread - about his political views and anarcho-syndicalism.

I have had a look for the article melenas mentions above regarding CNT Puerto, Beltrán Roca and Ganemos/IU, maybe it's these?

Podemos, Ganemos... ¿manguemos? Voluntarios, trepas y otras yerbas de la selva política. [auto-translation]
Ganemos El Puerto inicia el camino para concurrir a las elecciones locales [auto-translation]

melenas wrote:
AES wrote:
I saw this article "Ganemos El Puerto inicia el camino para concurrir a las elecciones locales" [auto-translation] being shared on social networks today, and remembered this discussion about Beltran Roca and the direction he is wanting the CNT to go in.

Can someone (with a sound grasp of castellano) help explain what is going on in that article? Is he promoting local government elections? Is he nominating himself as a candidate? Is he against social partnership, for worker control?

Before this happened beltran roca resigned as secretary of his local union. As its known, members of parties can join CNT what they cant be is secretaries or have any responsibility in CNT in any level. also the local union make a notification saying that respect the decision of beltran but as union they are against the elections and don't give any support to any party or candidate to any election. also what i know is that beltran only take part in the assembly of Ganemos, and don't want to take part in the elections (Ganemos are assemblies of people os social movement that in someplace toke toke the decision to take part in local elections).

this not affect to CNT anarchosindicalist strategy in any way and don't go farther than a personal decision of a militant of CNT.

i hope this help you

I'm also interested about CNT providing venues/resources for Ganemos government election meetings, which I understand has been an issue with some CNT locals?

Topic locked