define nation, nationalism, national liberation movement
Jun 8 2007 18:39
#92
I know what is nationalist though, gaelising an anglo scottish name.
Jun 8 2007 21:06
#93
georgestapleton wrote:
John,'s argument about the IRA was nationalist. A lot of soft english nationalist sentiment is repeated and unchallenged on libcom.
You can fuck off, someone who blows up a pub full of workers is a murdering bastard. Saying that is not "nationalist", it's fucking sane, and if you don't think the same then I think you're an idiot.
You can list a load of other things which are minorly nationalist - I haven't met any of them. Joe referring to the British army as "my" army and "my" side is "nationalist" if I'm going to try to be as petty as your being. But even being that petty you still don't have anything on me. You're clutching at straws.
Jun 9 2007 10:51
#94
Quote:
George wrote:"referring to britain and ireland as the british isles is nationalist"
No it isn't. It is just a geographical term for the islands off the north-west of Europe. I understand how it is interpreted often in Ireland, but it doesn't express some kinda British (or English!?!) claim over the island of Ireland. Most people in the motherland, apart from hibernophiles, have no interest in or knowledge of Ireland...still less some kinda old Articles 2 & 3 claim over the place.
It is all about context.....
I've met Scots who were keen on the term because it put them in the same unit as Ireland, rather than just in the same unit as London.
Likewise 'new british history' i think it is called is a school that challenges old anglo-centric historical perspectives (eg War of the three kingdoms rather than English civil war).
In fact in regard to the Northern conflict the lack of indentity with or attachment to Ulster on the part of the denizens of the neighbouring island is singular. Compare with Spain and the Partido Popular being able to bring out loads of people in Madrid in protest against the government's apparent selling out to ETA. Indeed the only people in Britain who identify with Ulster and see it as part of their country and want to back up their fellow Britons there are your Celts in Scotland.
And we both know where the term 'British' comes from......
Jun 9 2007 10:54
#95
Quote:
MJ wrote: "Actually Terry when you pointed out in the last thread that you'd made ignored contributions to the previous 4, I decided to take the time to go over them and isolate your posts and read them all together and respond in full (I do think we agree on much of this). Sorry I haven't had a chance to do so yet, been a busy week! But I will."
Cool. I should point I wasn't only crying about my posts, but pointing out the confrontational ambience. Look forward to reading what you have to say.
Jun 13 2007 13:26
#96
Right Joe you've had a week to try to back up your ridiculous claims now, you don't seem to have done so. So how about you either back it up or retract it?
Jun 13 2007 14:54
#97
John. are you trying to be funny or something?
You've been calling people nationalists on here for two years now. You are in no position to sulk and demand retractions when you get a taste of your own medicine in return. If you continue your behavior in this regard then I may well continue to choose to continue to copy it.
Jun 13 2007 21:34
#98
Quote:
You've been calling people nationalists on here for two years now. You are in no position to sulk and demand retractions when you get a taste of your own medicine in return. If you continue your behavior in this regard then I may well continue to choose to continue to copy it.
So you were taking the piss????
Jun 14 2007 15:17
#99
JoeBlack2 wrote:
John. are you trying to be funny or something?You've been calling people nationalists on here for two years now. You are in no position to sulk and demand retractions when you get a taste of your own medicine in return. If you continue your behavior in this regard then I may well continue to choose to continue to copy it.
I was giving you the opportunity to retract laughable lies which make you look like a twat. And by extension the WSM, as your role as its most prominent member/"theoretician."
JoeBlack2 wrote:
As I've told you before you would be much better served addressing your own English nationalism .. Its particularly rich to have an English nationalist like yourself ...
.. I do consider you to be an English nationalist and I have told you why at length a couple of times.
... a couple of the others have also come out with some pretty dodge defences of aspects of English nationalism but his [John.'s] was by far the clearest. I'm amazed he is still daft enough to try and defend his position after all this time.
You called me an English nationalist for saying that someone who blows up a pub full of workers is a murdering bastard. This is obviously completely wrong.
I have said that some people in WSM and NEFAC support national liberation*. As by my definition, the dictionary's definition, and just about everyone else in the world's definition, national liberation movements are nationalist. You can disagree with the definition of "nationalist" (but you haven't provided a different one), but still the facts are the same.
* WEB in NEFAC clearly does, as does Wayne Price, the WSM do in their position papers saying you'd support the ending of partition, and thus a united Ireland, and individual members have on other things, like gurrier on Iraq, etc.
Jun 15 2007 02:20
#100
blimey 
Jul 24 2007 23:14
#101
Written in the context of the wee north but there is something of a definition of the nation, nationalism and national liberation in here. From the Organise! Aims and Principles:
Quote:
NationalismWe are opposed to the ideology of nationalism and national liberation movements which claim that there is some common interest between native bosses and the working class in face of foreign domination.
We are opposed to all forms of nationalism, be that the British nationalism of Loyalism and Unionism, Irish nationalism or the Ulster nationalist current evident within Loyalism. All have as central to their ideology the nationalist myth that people in an arbitrarily drawn up nation (be it based on an island, region, language, ‘culture’, or religion, or any combination of these or other elements), have common interests which can be represented by the nation state. The nation state is in effect the government over the majority, the working class, by the wealthy few. The working class and those who hold power, the bosses and their lackeys, have no common interests.
We do support working class struggles against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism. We oppose the creation of any new ruling class. We reject all forms of nationalism, as they only serve to redefine divisions in the international working class. The working class has no country and national boundaries must be eliminated.
Jul 25 2007 09:10
#102
Still no answer Joe?
If you still claim that anyone who says that someone who blows up a pub full of workers is a murdering bastard, and that not every British soldier is a murdering bastard (for the simple reason that most of them have never killed anyone) is an English nationalist, this is a view the whole libcom group holds, so please extend your claim to all of us. Then we'll put it on our reviews page. Also, are you a member of both NEFAC and the WSM now?
Jul 25 2007 12:29
#103
John your a sad case and no mistake, you like to throw shit at people but sulk for months when you get a little bit of the same treatment.
For the record my objection was to you describing all republican prisoners as 'murdering bastards' based on the actions of less than 1% (the pub bombers) but refusing to extend the same logic to all British solders based on the actions of those who carried out Bloody Sunday or the many other deliberate killings of working class non-combatants in Ireland and elsewhere. This as I have already pointed out is not the same thing as the rather more reasonable (but politically useless) version you try and claim above.
I still maintain that this position of yours can only be one based on the logic of British nationalism - for the sake of illustration I turned that into calling you a nationalist (not actually the same thing). You recognised this in retreating from your original position and then rewriting it as above. That you are still sulking and now making bizarre threats on that basis demonstrates my point about the emptyness of a politics based on jumping up and down and shouting nationalist at the drop of a hat.
Jul 25 2007 12:56
#104
JoeBlack2 wrote:
For the record my objection was to you describing all republican prisoners as 'murdering bastards' based on the actions of less than 1% (the pub bombers)
No I didn't, that's a complete lie - I said specifically pub bombers! I've even quoted myself on my original comments to demonstrate a few times.
If I had said it about all republican prisoners it would of course be nonsense. But I didn't.
Quote:
This as I have already pointed out is not the same thing as the rather more reasonable (but politically useless) version you try and claim above.
Politically useless? It was a throwaway comment in a random discussion, not a position paper.
Quote:
I still maintain that this position of yours can only be one based on the logic of British nationalism - for the sake of illustration I turned that into calling you a nationalist (not actually the same thing).
First you said big nation nationalist, then you started saying English nationalist, which is particularly bizarre because I said the British army (not "my army" as you repeatedly said).
Quote:
You recognised this in retreating from your original position and then rewriting it as above.
Am I going to have to dig out my original quote again to show up this bollocks?
Quote:
That you are still sulking and now making bizarre threats
What threats have I made? What are you going on about?
Jul 25 2007 13:10
#105
John. wrote:
If I had said it about all republican prisoners it would of course be nonsense.
In the original discussion about 18 months back you did say it about all prisoners and you did then defend your refusal to extend the same logic to all British soldiers on the basis that they were economic conscripts.
Jul 25 2007 13:20
#106
JoeBlack2 wrote:
John. wrote:
If I had said it about all republican prisoners it would of course be nonsense.In the original discussion about 18 months back you did say it about all prisoners and you did then defend your refusal to extend the same logic to all British soldiers on the basis that they were economic conscripts.
Sorry, you can't misrepresent what people said on the internet, because what they said is still on the internet. Please note your worst misrepresenation of me that I said bastards, when in fact I said scumbags and arseholes:
John. wrote:
JoeBlack2 wrote:
John. wrote:
presumably you wouldn't actually be upset if some pub-bombing scumbag got internedTime has passed so I guess its easy today to come out with this formulation now but when I became politically active there were quite a large number of innocent Irish people in jail in Britain because all the state had to do was accuse them of being a 'pub-bombing scumbag' to silence debate.
From this and the rest of your argument here you don't seem to contradict my point:
John. wrote:
As revol again points out, the only reason you would argue against such repression is because it may either be used against the working class, or because innocent workers might be punished instead (presumably you wouldn't actually be upset if some pub-bombing scumbag got interned).So you can still criticis repressive legislation on a class basis without "defending" criminal nationalist murdering arseholes.
My bit in bold is to indicate the phrase used to describe the same hypothetical person.
http://libcom.org/forums/thought/for-john-how-is-the-wsm-soft-on-nationalism
edited to add - of course I wouldn't have said that about all republican prisoners anyway, because similarly to British soldiers I'd assume that most had never killed anyone.
Jul 25 2007 13:26
#107
Thats a six month old thread, the one I remember was from around 18 months ago and I've already acknowledged that you have changed your position since.
Jul 25 2007 13:46
#108
Joe, the only way-back thread i can find with the phrase murdering bastards is you complaining about libertarians in general saying it:
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Most libertarian stuff of that period [1980s] is either 'IRA murdering bastards' or 'IRA freedom fighters'
http://libcom.org/forums/libcommunity/wsm-cartoon-from-1992#comment-26554 - a thread discussing this graphic:
and John. wasn't involved. do you have a link?
Jul 25 2007 13:52
#109
Joseph K. wrote:
Joe, the only way-back thread i can find with the phrase murdering bastards is you complaining about libertarians in general saying it
Nope thats a 3 year old thread and not the one I was thinking of.
I have actually tried to find the thread without success so far, I guess its possible it got deleted or lost in one of the updates. In any case seeing as how that is no longer his position its really not that important now.
Jul 25 2007 13:55
#110
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Thats a six month old thread, the one I remember was from around 18 months ago and I've already acknowledged that you have changed your position since.
That was never my position, you're lying to try to back up your ridiculous attempt at a slur.
If I did say it it'll be on here - let's see then.
And how about telling me how I've threatened you as well?
Jul 25 2007 13:57
#111
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
Joe, the only way-back thread i can find with the phrase murdering bastards is you complaining about libertarians in general saying itNope thats a 3 year old thread and not the one I was thinking of.
I have actually tried to find the thread without success so far, I guess its possible it got deleted or lost in one of the updates.
No, you're invented it to try to justify your stupid lies.
Quote:
In any case seeing as how that is no longer his position its really not that important now.
You're a bullshitter. I thought better of you than this. 
Jul 25 2007 13:57
#112
2 years ol i make it. i think the only time we lost data was in the hack, which was about 12 months ago. don't think we lost much but i wasn't an admin then. searching didn't throw up any results quoting it either, so is it possible you've conflated your at least 2-year old distaste for libertarians calling the IRA murdering bastards (or freedom fighters) with what John. actually said?
Jul 25 2007 13:59
#113
the wayback machine is down at the moment but that might have a pre-hack snapshot
Jul 25 2007 14:02
#114
Joseph K. wrote:
2 years ol i make it. i think the only time we lost data was in the hack, which was about 12 months ago. don't think we lost much but i wasn't an admin then.
We lost discussions started in the month prior, so that wouldn't be it either. Of course, I never would have said that all republican prisoners were murdering bastards anyway, because it's obviously false - lots would've been in for other offences, or just fitted up, etc.
Quote:
searching didn't throw up any results quoting it either, so is it possible you've conflated your at least 2-year old distaste for libertarians calling the IRA murdering bastards (or freedom fighters) with what John. actually said?
That or he's made up the entire thing, hoping that if he repeats it enough times it'll become true, in the tradition of his fellow platformist "rise"
edited to add:
I'm pretty sure the first time I was called a big nation nationalist by Joe (which later mutated to English nationalist) was in the thread I linked to above, which is also the first time I mentioned republican prisoners - and people can see was where the subsequent discussion about the British army happened for the first time - only 6 odd months ago. It would seem strange that we would have exactly the same conversation twice 1 year apart, in one of them me saying something that I knew wasn't even close to being correct.
Jul 25 2007 14:19
#115
I've looked again and can't find it so I think there are 3 possibilities
1. It is there and I can't find it for some reason
2. It was never there and my memory is playing tricks with me most likely by confusing a post on some other board with this one
3. It was there but has been accidentally or delibretly removed or altered.
In the situation its fairest if I say my memory is playing tricks on me and John. never used the formulation I remembered him using.
Jul 25 2007 14:25
#116
JoeBlack2 wrote:
In the situation its fairest if I say my memory is playing tricks on me and John. never used the formulation I remembered him using.
That would also be also be the correct option. For starters, this row between us hasn't been going on for a year and a half, and secondly as I've said a fair few times I would never say all republican prisoners were murderers because obviously most aren't. I wouldn't say most fascist prisoners were murderers either, because they're not.
So Joe, how about some apology or retraction then?
Jul 25 2007 14:33
#117
That was a retraction which on its own is more than what is standard here.
Would you also like me to send you flowers?
Edited to replace conditional with retraction which was what I had intended to write
Jul 25 2007 14:41
#118
Actually I'll make it an apology
I've trawling through old thread with loads of search terms and I think I either confused you with someone else or misinterpretated something you wrote. Your few older posts which touch on this area do not contain positions that would be compatible with what I falsely rememebred.
In future I'll try to stick to quoting people rather than summarising what I think they said to avoid this sort of situation.
Jul 25 2007 14:50
#119
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Actually I'll make it an apologyI've trawling through old thread with loads of search terms and I think I either confused you with someone else or misinterpretated something you wrote. Your few older posts which touch on this area do not contain positions that would be compatible with what I falsely rememebred.
In future I'll try to stick to quoting people rather than summarising what I think they said to avoid this sort of situation.
Wow, well thank you.
I wasn't sure if you were mis-remembering or being deliberately dishonest. It's easy to mis-remember something. So cheers.
Jul 25 2007 16:56
#120
fair dues Joe, respect for saying that
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fuck me but you are a cretin, the term british isles is akin to talking about Iberia, it has been its historic name before there ever existed a British state, likewise Ireland.