'Group Dynamics'; a crock of shit? [was Sexual Violence]

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Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 25 2006 20:29

Hi

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the vast majority are carried out by someone known to the woman. so why is this?

Familiarity breeds contempt. Not joking, the normal inhibitors that prevent men from behaving malevolently disappear inside close relationships.

Love

LR

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 25 2006 20:35
revol68 wrote:
I particularly like that, the implication that somehow i'm seeking to dominate you is ironically a well known means of putting men in their place when they raise any critical objections, an oldie but still a goodiem, eh.

The snatch for victimhood

revol68 wrote:
It's that kind of shit that might explain why so many men don't involve themselves in such discussions, I mean i might argue in a manner you find somehow "oppressive" but i atleast offer a view on such matters and take them seriously enough to say when i disagree with something.

Yes, poor old revol. Will his plan work? The fact that mostly men have posted on this thread so far might stall him - so expect plenty of bluster and theoretical trills and spills up ahead, revol-fans!

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 25 2006 20:35

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I do think group dynamics are one, amoung the many issues, the anarchists need to look at

I don't know. The failed dynamics of anarchist groups merely reflect the flaws in their ideology. People with especially strong feelings or highly developed positions against male sexual violence would probably be happier elsewhere.

I mean, how many people are we talking about in anarchist organisations in the UK? A thousand?

Love

LR

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 25 2006 20:37
Lazy Riser wrote:
Familiarity breeds contempt. Not joking, the normal inhibitors that prevent men from behaving malevolently disappear inside close relationships.

In general I disagree with that saying - but I think you're right. It is easier and safer to hurt the ones who love you, as you know they're less likely to drop you. Plus they're around when inhibitions are lowest and nerves are most frayed - early and late.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 25 2006 20:41
Lazy Riser wrote:
The failed dynamics of anarchist groups merely reflect the flaws in their ideology.

I agree with you here - if anarchists can't develop better forms of social interaction among their own movement, then why should we expect to be able to develop them in society at large?

Lazy Riser wrote:
I mean, how many people are we talking about in anarchist organisations in the UK? A thousand?

Probably about that number were at the bookfair - but not all were anarchists-the wider anarcho/alternative/left scene is certainly thousands. And,more importantly, if we expect to bemore, we need to be constantly sortin out our group dynamics

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 25 2006 20:47

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if we expect to bemore, we need to be constantly sortin out our group dynamics

But the ideological flaw is fatal. Anarchist group dynamics will never by “sorted out” because the objectives of the anarchist movement are different from the objectives of the working class. In fact they’re mutually contentious.

Love

LR

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Oct 25 2006 20:48

i'm going to stick this thread in libcommunity since there's very little prospect of any organising amidst the circular bollocks.

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 25 2006 20:49

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Bad decision. The misalignment between anarchism and everyday life accounts for its vacuous take on sexual violence.

JK, your reactionary perspective has killed what could have been a decent thread. In fact it's totally sexist to move this topic to "community", you'd have been better re-railing it.

Love

LR

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Jacques Roux
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Oct 25 2006 20:53

Haven't read the thread, i suggest you put this one into thought, as it doesn't look like its turned into a flame war.

And then restart the other one with dara's initial post in organise.

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 25 2006 20:59

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Good move. We need to decide whether we want to discuss "Anarchism and Sexual Violence" which is a waste of time, or sexual violence generally which at least stands half a chance of addressing something important.

Love

LR

dara
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Oct 25 2006 20:59

i'm pretty disappointed by this thread.

i started because this is an issue that i've been thinking a lot about, and i feel is currently among the most pressing questions for Anarchist organisations, particularly my own.

Gender issues are class issues, how we confront them as an aspect of capitalism is very important. Anyway, I felt pretty pissed off that this ended up in a pissing contest. Just because someone criticises another's posting style is no reason for defensiveness and derailment.

Its definitely a shame that the discussion was so male-dominated, since most of us haven't faced the same experiences as our female comrades.

anyway, fuck that shit, I'll just try having this discussion in the real world.

dara
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Oct 25 2006 21:04

no. i do have contact with people outside of the Jack White.
bye now.

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 25 2006 21:04

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i started because this is an issue that i've been thinking a lot about, and i feel is currently among the most pressing questions for Anarchist organisations, particularly my own.

But dara. Anarchist men have got even more explosive tempers, a greater propensity towards violence and a deeper need to control and humiliate women than men-on-average. Their deeply “humanitarian” and “anti-sexist” politics are just methods to compensate for it. Get out, it’s not for you.

Love

LR

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 25 2006 22:38
Lazy Riser wrote:
But dara. Anarchist men have got even more explosive tempers, a greater propensity towards violence and a deeper need to control and humiliate women than men-on-average. Their deeply “humanitarian” and “anti-sexist” politics are just methods to compensate for it. Get out, it’s not for you.

A good late challenge from the plucky stuntist, but I think we all know that tonight belongs to Larne.

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JDMF
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Oct 26 2006 07:29

ok, i have been biting my lip not to say anything, because i dont have anything constructive to say, just venting really.

But since it looks like the bully boys are just winning yet again and managed to shout down other opinions and maybe make yet again one more libcom member to fuck off, i'd just like to make clear where my solidarity and sympathies lie.

I am still so angry so i cant write anything coherent so i will leave it here.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Oct 26 2006 07:43
revol68 wrote:
fuck only knows what would have came from this debate.

well there's another thread now for anyone who wants to find out, but do you really think it's irrelevant/automatically inward-looking anarcho-scenesterism to talk about forms of domination that are present in our everyday lives/communities/workplaces? i don't see how :?

JDMF's picture
JDMF
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Oct 26 2006 07:48

actually, fuck this anger management problem bullshit, here goes nothing:

this thread and the RAG thread are just examples of the bully boy tactics used by likes of revol. Now of course his first though when he reads this is to tell me to grow the fuck up, it is only a message board and who cares, grow a thicker skin. And perhaps thats the issue: for some who are keen on developing their politics, organise and so on, and use this forum for those purposes it is more than just a message board. Also, the problem is not stubborn bastards like myself, but the dozens of people who do not use the board or have left because of the bully boy tactics.

Even an elementary knowledge of misuse of power in meeting situations would have had revol thrown out of any meeting because of authoritarian behaviour and being a general cock. Here it is not so simple, even though the behaviour and the effect is the same.

The argumentation is based on ridiculing and belittling the person with wrong opinions, or flooding messages and not leaving any room for people to develope their opinions. The argumentation tactics aim to humiliate rather than educate or exchange opinions, they aim to "win" the argument rather than actually come to any outcome where different people would have had an input, every dissenting voice is ridiculed and attacked from many unrelated angles as well and people with a different voice will find their character questioned as well.

this is a bit ironic, but these are the issues people look into when talking about "group dynamics" and making your group to work more democratically, makiing space for different kinds of people, respecting eachothers opinions and so on, so i guess it was not a coincidence that revol threw his toys out of the pram on this thread grin If we would take these issues seriously within our movement, revol/LR would need to clean up their act pretty quick.

I am not saying that i dont use these tactics, of course i sometimes do. I hope i dont use them often and i like to be called on when i do, because sometimes you dont even notice it.

anyway, i guess its again my turn to be shot down again! grin

lem
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Oct 26 2006 08:00
Quote:
I am still so angry so i cant write anything coherent so i will leave it here

lol

powertotheimagi...
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Oct 26 2006 08:02

Maybe thats what happens when its a bunch of guys (primarily) all together in a political situation/grouping, you either shout the others down through insults or you blind them with theory (or pseudo-theory in the case of LR), anyway is fine, or even a mix of both, and then you can return to self- congratulating on the fact you showed that 'bastard/liberal/primmo/animal rights nutter/prick/knob/wanker/enviromentalist/or all round enemy of the working classes' where to really go!

caitlin69
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Oct 26 2006 11:25

yeah why not put an end to all this one-up-personship. we really are wasting time with it and time is running out fast. no time for frivolous or wasteful behaviour. i have always thought the difference between men and women in the social (non-sexual) sphere is that men are (not usually) oppressed as men, whereas women are oppressed as women. to my mind it would be really good if we could just ignore gender differences in situations where they are not relevant.

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jef costello
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Oct 26 2006 11:38

I'm fucking disappointed in this thread. I really felt that we were getting somewhere with the other thread and now we've just had another argument about Revol.
I'm not blaming him but for fuck's sake can we at least try to do something positive, as the original thread seemed to.
I wish I hadn't read this one before checking up on the other one because now I'm in a bad mood.

Dundee_United
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Oct 26 2006 11:46

Yes exactly JDMF.

What was queer about this thread is that I believe LR and Revol were essentially 100% correct in that sexist relations in anarchist groups are not the central problem for comrades wishing to challenge sexual violence.

The problem was nobody else got a word in edgeway and it wasn't exactly what the thread was posted for. Lazlo made that point very early on.

Is there any way of chairing message boards by the way? That's really what discussions lack here - a strong chair.

Lazy Riser's picture
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Oct 26 2006 18:52

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If we would take these issues seriously within our movement, revol/LR would need to clean up their act pretty quick.

My act is so clean it shines. Take that back you big bully. God, you can be so male sometimes.

Quote:
you either shout the others down through insults or you blind them with theory (or pseudo-theory in the case of LR)

For future reference, which pseudo-theory blinded you?

Love

LR

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Oct 26 2006 19:13

Here's me chearleading for JDMF

Goooooooo JDMF

Lazy Riser's picture
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Oct 26 2006 19:37

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Is that JDMF's harem? They'd better get out fast, he's becomming incoherent. He might get punchy.

Quote:
i have been biting my lip

Pleasure spiked with pain. You know you love it.

Love

LR

Pepe
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Oct 26 2006 22:15

JDMF -

Well done. Don't know if this was teh right thread to say all that, but it needed saying

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Oct 26 2006 22:21

That image is freaky. black bloc

(thats me trying to hide, or is it me masking up to teach those yankee bourgeois mofos a lesson....oh its the former. I'm soft.)

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Oct 26 2006 22:29

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It's like when they encourage disabled people by clapping them even when they fail.

Love

LR

sovietpop
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Oct 27 2006 11:43

That post is the worst case of internet bullying I've seen in a long time.

sovietpop
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Oct 27 2006 11:59

No revolt, it's not an honest response its bullying. And all the other stuff in your post is just avoiding the issue. Someone posts that she is afraid of looking stupid, and you post back that actually she is stupid? It despicable, unacceptable behavour. There is no excuse for treating people that way.