The (Infamous) First Stage
To put it bluntly, what killed 20th century Socialism was the fact that the so-called first stage of communism, which was expressed as Socialism couldn't evolve into the second stage. Now, the reasons behind this tragic failure are the material conditions, doubtlessly, although remnants from the 20th century socialists still blame each other. Yet the important thing to do is trying to understand how the first stage of communism will look like and how it will differ from 20th century socialism.
The first thing that comes to ones mind while trying to make a brief description attempt is to look at what Marx thinks about the subject. Yet Marx did not write a book or even an essay on what communism will look like. This is pretty understandable, considering the fact that Marx lived in 1800s and we still live under capitalism in 2000s. If someone thinking like Marx lived in ancient Greece, that person would predict that the capitalist system would emerge when the material conditions made it possible, but that person could not say how it would be, or when it would be because that person would not have any idea about the variables, about the way historical conditions will make capitalism possible. The same thing happened in 1800s, Marx was able to tell us that communism was going to come, but he wasn't able to tell how or when. Even now, 150 years after the publishing of the Communist Manifesto, we can't exactly tell how it will be like, or in fact when it will be like. Yet, when we look at Marx's works, we can find traces on his thoughts on the communist society of the future. Let's get one thing clear, Marx certainly did hope to see a successful revolution in his lifetime, and the Paris Commune definitely made his hopes seem even more possible to him. Probably this is the reason why he wrote what he wrote on the communist society of the future, and if he lived long enough, he was planning to sum up his vision of communism in the end of Das Kapital.
So let's see what we've got here:
In the Communist Manifesto, Marx demands: "1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3) Abolition of all right of inheritance. 4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5) Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6) Centralization of communication and transport in the hands of the state. 7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing in cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8 ) Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of population over the country. 10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc., etc."
Those 'demands' Marx makes are usually misunderstood because they are seen as reforms to transform the capitalist society. They are not! Those ten demands are written to be instant measures taken after the revolution instead of slow reforms following it, so Marx's demands are the material results of the revolution. Here, Marx thinks that the masses will take control of the state and use it to take those measures, but after the fall of the Paris Commune, Marx changes his mind on this and decides that “the working class cannot simply lay hold of ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes.” So what this means is that we will read Marx's demands regarding the post-revolutionary period by replacing the word 'state' with the word 'organized workers' or 'united proletariat' etc. After all, the only organism that remains is the organization of the workers society itself. So it reads like this: the organized workers will rapidly start abolishing private property and control all the public services. So with this replacement, we see that what Marx demanded us to do, from the 19th century, is in fact very close to our vision of communism.
Marx describes the first stage of communism as the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. In the 'Critique of the Gotha Program' he says "Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat." The word 'revolutionary' is extremely important here. It does not only imply that the transformation will be a revolutionary one, but it also implies that the transformation will occur during the process of revolution, which doesn't end until private property is abolished. After the very moment of revolution there is nothing stopping the workers from abolishing private property. In facts, the seeds will have been thrown even before the moment of revolution, at the beginning of the process of revolution. When the process of revolution is over, revolution will be in permanence, or to phase it a clearer way, revolutionary evolution will occur. Marx explains this in 1844 Manuscripts: "It takes actual communist action to abolish actual private property. History will lead to it; and this movement, which in theory we already know to be a self-transcending movement, will constitute in actual fact a very rough and protracted process. But we must regard it as a real advance to have at the outset gained a consciousness of the limited character as well as of the goal of this historical movement –and a consciousness which reaches out beyond it."
Now, if we return to another aspect of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat', which is in fact a very obvious one, we see that it is a form of dictatorship enforced by the proletariat collectively. So it is not only a dictatorship of the proletariat, but it is also a dictatorship by the proletariat and a dictatorship for the proletariat. In fact the whole concept of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' was developed against Blanquists who supported a ruling elite that was to work for the 'best interests' of the proletariat.
Now, let's see what Marx thinks about Socialism. He writes in 1844 Manuscripts "Socialism is man's positive self-consciousness, no longer mediated through the annulment of religion, just as real life is man's positive reality, no longer mediated through the annulment of private property, through communism. . . . Communism is the . . . actual phase necessary for the next stage of historical development in the process of human emancipation. . . .Communism is the necessary pattern and dynamic principle of the immediate future, but communism as such is not the goal of human development - which goal is the structure of human society." So what Marx means is that Communism is an "actual phase" of society prior to the next historical stage of human development, whereas socialism is "man's positive self-consciousness." Therefore according to Marx, socialism is the goal, it is the intellectual utopia itself. In a way, we can even call it the next step in the biological evolution of human mind. Now, there is a nice play Marx makes with words. He is well known for calling self-proclaimed socialists of his era 'utopians'. Here, he calls the intellectual utopia 'socialism'.
Now, lets look at what the leading 20th century socialist, Lenin, thinks about this whole process of the transformation, the dictatorship of the proletariat etc. In his State and Revolution Lenin says "The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously with an immense expansion of democracy, which for the first time becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists." Lenin's definition of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' is directly contrary to the purpose Marx had while inventing the term. Lenin sincerely agrees with Marx on what needs to be done, but he thinks this should be done by an elite vanguard organization. The roots of Lenin's ideas of vanguard are not the subject of this topic, but Lenin is quite sincere about the vanguard as well, which actually shows how naive he was on class relationships. Lenin makes one of his greatest theoretical mistakes when he completely misunderstands Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme. In State and Revolution, he states that "the social order termed by Marx the first phase of communism" was "usually called socialism" and he supports this claim by reducing the first stage of communism to: 1. common ownership of the means of production; 2. "from each according to his ability, and to each according to his labor"; 3. "the distribution of products" is not yet equal. All three concepts differ from counterparts in Marx's Critique of the Gotha Program. First, Marx specified that the means of production must be owned by "the association of producers" whereas Lenin's imprecise term "common ownership" has consistently been interpreted to mean state ownership -- something that Marx and Engels rejected out of hand. Second, Marx's formulation is "from each according to his ability, and to each according to his labor power." This is quite different from Lenin's "to each according to his labor": Marx's "labor power" is measured solely by the length and intensity of labor, whereas Lenin's "labor" is measured by the value of the commodities it produces. According to Marx, payment for labor is the hallmark of capitalism, whereas payment for labor power is the hallmark of the first stage of communism. Therefore the "socialist" society Lenin described has a basic capitalist feature because it pays wages for labor. Third, Marx was critical of the socialist idea, repeated by Lenin, that distribution of products is central; Marx's view was that conditions of production are more essential, and it is incorrect to "make a fuss" about distribution: "The distribution of the means of consumption at any time is only a consequence of the distribution of the conditions of production themselves. The latter distribution, however, is a feature of the mode of production itself. . . . If the material conditions of production are the co-operative property of the workers themselves, then this . . . results in a different distribution of the means of production . . . ." Put another way, the most important thing is the direct control of the means and conditions of production by the producers themselves, rather than by the State or by the Party.
To phrase it in a little romantic way, the first stage of communism is building what we imagine; building the world we want to live in. It will take time to build it; it will be hard, both before and after the revolution. The ‘higher’ stage of communism is the limit of what we can imagine right now, but after the revolution, it will cease to be ‘higher’, because we will imagine another stage which is ‘higher’ than what we imagine right now. When we reach that point, there will be new things we imagined. Communism will always be self-transcendent, we will always move towards our imagination...
did u just write that?
No, not really
I had written it a while ago...
Marx's formulation is "from each according to his ability, and to each according to his labor power."
Where does Marx say this?
According to Marx, payment for labor is the hallmark of capitalism, whereas payment for labor power is the hallmark of the first stage of communism.
This is false - Marx says in capitalism payment is for labour power, not for labour.
Marx's "labor power" is measured solely by the length and intensity of labor, whereas Lenin's "labor" is measured by the value of the commodities it produces
You are describing 2 different ideas of the quantification of labour, not the distinction between labour and labour power. Whether you have characterised Lenin correctly I don't know, but I'm afraid you haven't Marx.
Cardinal,
Where does Marx say this?
That comes from Critique of the Gotha Programme and I actually wrote that in the post. It is not an 'exact quote' it is sort of a summary of the message.
This is false - Marx says in capitalism payment is for labour power, not for labour.
Nope, I'd check my sources if I were you. I am not going to say that I read everything Marx ever wrote but but I know that he rarely contradicts himself and he clearly says the opposite of what you said on the Critique of the Gotha Programme.
The capitalist doesn't care if the worker had worked twenty four hours a day in an incredibly hard job if he can't sell the product, if the product, the commodity created doesn't have any value in the market. Therefore in capitalism payment is not for labour power.
In capitalism, the payement is for the value of labour, that is the value of the commodity that had been produced in the market. Lenin describes this as 'labor'. That's why what he has in mind is actually not really different from capitalism.
This is common sense. Something anyone who understands capitalism a little bit would easily understand, which includes Marx.
You are describing 2 different ideas of the quantification of labour, not the distinction between labour and labour power. Whether you have characterised Lenin correctly I don't know, but I'm afraid you haven't Marx.
Well, I was trying to point out the difference between Lenin's "labour" and Marx's "labour". Lenin's definition of labour is the value of labour.
Read Critique of the Gotha Programme if you are interested.
I pretty certain (actually i'm certain) that Marx defined labour as the actual action of producing/creating, and labour power as a persons ability for labour. Hence two people might carry out the same amount of labour but would expend different amounts of their labour power eg me and JDMF lifting boxes in a warehouse. It's also important because although capital may buy labour power it cannot guarnatee the amount of labour.
Leo Uilleann writes:
Quote:
This is false - Marx says in capitalism payment is for labour power, not for labour.Nope, I'd check my sources if I were you. I am not going to say that I read everything Marx ever wrote but but I know that he rarely contradicts himself and he clearly says the opposite of what you said on the Critique of the Gotha Programme.
I'm afraid it's you who need to check your sources, Leo. Marx not only argued that the capitalists buy our labor power, not our labor, but he actually made quite a big deal out of this point. As his old pal Engels puts it:
Turn and twist as we will, we cannot get out of this contradiction, as long as we speak of the purchase and sale of labour and of the value of labour. And this also happened to the economists. The last offshoot of classical economics, the Ricardian school, was wrecked mainly by the insolubility of this contradiction. Classical economics had got into a blind alley. The man who found the way out of this blind alley was Karl Marx.What the economists had regarded as the cost of production of "labour" was the cost of production not of labour but of the living worker himself. And what this worker sold to the capitalist was not his labour. "As soon as his labour actually begins," says Marx, "it has already ceased to belong to him; it can therefore no longer be sold by him."[6] At the most, he might sell his future labour, that is, undertake to perform a certain amount of work in a definite time. In so doing, however, he does not sell labour (which would first have to be performed) but puts his labour power at the disposal of the capitalist for a definite time (in the case of time work) or for the purpose of a definite output (in the case of piece-work) in return for a definite payment: he hires out, or sells, his labour power. But this labour power has grown together with his person and is inseparable from it. Its cost of production, therefore, coincides with his cost of production; what the economists called the cost of production of labour is really the cost of production of the worker and consequently of his labour power. And so we can go back from the cost of production of labour power to the value of labour power and determine the amount of socially necessary labour requisite for the production of labour power of a particular quality, as Marx has done in the chapter on the buying and selling of labour power. (Kapital, Band IV, 3.[7])
(From Engels' preface to the 1891 edition of the pamphlet Wage Labour and Capital)
And no, Marx doesn't say anything different in Critique of the Gotha Programme.
The capitalist doesn't care if the worker had worked twenty four hours a day in an incredibly hard job if he can't sell the product, if the product, the commodity created doesn't have any value in the market. Therefore in capitalism payment is not for labour power.In capitalism, the payement is for the value of labour, that is the value of the commodity that had been produced in the market. Lenin describes this as 'labor'. That's why what he has in mind is actually not really different from capitalism.
This is common sense. Something anyone who understands capitalism a little bit would easily understand, which includes Marx.
Not only is this not common sense, but it is plain wrong. If a capitalist hires me to do a job, he will have to pay me whether he is able to sell the products or not. And the claim that the payment is for the value of the commodities produced, is exactly what Marx argues against.
It is an interesting and important question.
Marx not only argued that the capitalists buy our labor power, not our labor, but he actually made quite a big deal out of this point. As his old pal Engels puts it
This seems to be the problem. Apparently, Marx did use 'labour' until his mid-period. However, in later published editions of earlier texts Engels substituted in labour power for labour as this was the 'final' conceptualisation of the relation between proletariat and capital.
I don't think the substitution is sinister or harmful and shows how 'process' works... but it is not necessarily the 'best' formulation when it is considered how other early 'human' categories such as 'species-being' and 'alienation' are also edited out... the antagonism of the earlier works become more celebratory of totalising objective historical-economic process.
P.
It is an interesting and important question.Quote:
Marx not only argued that the capitalists buy our labor power, not our labor, but he actually made quite a big deal out of this point. As his old pal Engels puts itThis seems to be the problem. Apparently, Marx did use 'labour' until his mid-period. However, in later published editions of earlier texts Engels substituted in labour power for labour as this was the 'final' conceptualisation of the relation between proletariat and capital.
I don't think the substitution is sinister or harmful and shows how 'process' works... but it is not necessarily the 'best' formulation when it is considered how other early 'human' categories such as 'species-being' and 'alienation' are also edited out... the antagonism of the earlier works become more celebratory of totalising objective historical-economic process.
P.
yes it's not a cut and dry issue, as labour power is our total ability, and labour is what we do produce.
The capitalist may well buy our labour power but infact as we aren't compliant drones or commodities they have a struggle on their hands to own it totally. So infact the capitalist gets our labour. For some people though, worked to death, capitalism has managed to take all their "labour power", of course if it was to do this as norm it would collapse. Hence the autonomous argument that capitalism can never totally dominate the proletariat.
"In order to be able to extract value from the consumption of a commodity, our friend, Moneybags, must be so lucky as to find, within the sphere of circulation, in the market, a commodity, whose use-value possesses the peculiar property of being a source of value, whose actual consumption, therefore, is itself an embodiment of labour, and, consequently, a creation of value. The possessor of money does find on the market such a special commodity in capacity for labour or labour-power." - Marx, Capital, Chap 6.
So infact the capitalist gets our labour....For some people thought, worked to death, capitalism has managed to take all our "labour power", of course if it was to do this as norm it would collapse.
Brilliant and poignant idea... (particularly when considered via 'searching for the young soul rebels'). This is a perspective issue. From the perspective of the worker, it is labour that is sold, from the perspective of the economy it is labour power. The early Marx has something to say about the tenderness of flesh, 'man is a suffering being', I think this is not superceded by the later 'science'.
thanks for this insight,
P.
If a capitalist hires me to do a job, he will have to pay me whether he is able to sell the products or not. And the claim that the payment is for the value of the commodities produced, is exactly what Marx argues against.
This is paradoxical, if a capitalist is paying you whether he is able to sell the products or not, then he is paying you depending on the value of the commodities produced as well because obviously a product he can't sell has no value to him. If the payement was done for labor power under capitalism, people like coal miners would get more money then blue collar workers.
Now, of course, the worker does also sell his labor power to the capitalist as well, but the payement is done accordingly to the value of the commodity for the capitalist.
The capitalist may well buy our labour power but infact as we aren't compliant drones or commodities they have a struggle on their hands to own it totally. So infact the capitalist gets our labour.
Exactly, this is why we are paid according to the value of the product of our labor for the capitalist.
For some people thought, worked to death, capitalism has managed to take all our "labour power", of course if it was to do this as norm it would collapse. Hence the autonomous argument that capitalism can never totally dominate the proletariat.
That is a brilliant idea.
This is paradoxical, if a capitalist is paying you whether he is able to sell the products or not, then he is paying you depending on the value of the commodities produced as well because obviously a product he can't sell has no value to him. If the payement was done for labor power under capitalism, people like coal miners would get more money then blue collar workers.
A capitalist makes an investment in labour and materials in the hope of making a profit. The payment is for labour in that the worker is given money for working, however the payment has no connection to the amount produced. The payment is as low as it possibly can be. If workers producing high value items have managed to win better conditions, or the bosses find higher wages reduce theft etc this does not mean that they are being paid in relation to their expenditure of labour power.
Hi
A capitalist makes an investment in labour and materials in the hope of making a profit.
Which capitalists would this be then? Show me one.
Love
LR
If the payement was done for labor power under capitalism, people like coal miners would get more money then blue collar workers.
Why do you think that would be the case? Besides, I thought coal miners were blue collar workers...
Now, of course, the worker does also sell his labor power to the capitalist as well, but the payement is done accordingly to the value of the commodity for the capitalist.Quote:
The capitalist may well buy our labour power but infact as we aren't compliant drones or commodities they have a struggle on their hands to own it totally. So infact the capitalist gets our labour.Exactly, this is why we are paid according to the value of the product of our labor for the capitalist.
You will probably have a lot of bourgeois economists agreeing with you on this, but Marx actually spent a lot of effort arguing against this view. He mentions this also in Critique of the Gotha Programme which you were refering to earlier:
Since Lassalle's death, there has asserted itself in our party the scientific understanding that wages are not what they appear to be -- namely, the value, or price, of labor—but only a masked form for the value, or price, of labor power. Thereby, the whole bourgeois conception of wages hitherto, as well as all the criticism hitherto directed against this conception, was thrown overboard once and for all.
As Dr Cous Cous pointed out, Marx did not use the term "labor power" in his earliest works, but even in these early articles. he argues against the view that wages are decided by the value that our labour produces.
Wait a minute, there seems to be some confusion. Economics may think that the capitalist buys labour power, but it doesn't. The labour power is only a potential, the capitalist can not use all our labour power. Now this does not mean that our labour is what determines wages, they are determined by a million interacting factors, and most importantly by the working classes ability to resist and struggle.
Now I take all this from the fact Marx defines Labour Power as the ability of each person to wrok, whilst Labour is what we actual do. It seems obvious to me that the capitalist can not just buy our labour power and do what they want with it, because labour power is fundamentally different from any other commodity, it is a active agent, it can't be seperated from the worker.
http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch06.htm
All questions shall be answered. All confusion shall be eradicated.
Furthermore, from The Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy. Marx promises to provide solutions for the following problems that arose within classical political economy. The distinction between labor and labor-power provides the key to both answers.
"Since the determination of exchange-value by labour-time has been formulated and expounded in the clearest manner by Ricardo, who gave to classical political economy its final shape, it is quite natural that the arguments raised by economists should be primarily directed against him. If this polemic is stripped of its mainly trivial form it can be summarised as follows:
One. Labour itself has exchange-value and different types of labour have different exchange-values. If one makes exchange-value the measure of exchange-value, one is caught up in a vicious circle, for the exchange-value used as a measure requires in turn a measure. This objection merges into the following problem: given labour-time as the intrinsic measure of value, how are wages to be determined on this basis. The theory of wage-labour provides the answer to this.
Two. If the exchange-value of a product equals the labour-time contained in the product, then the exchange-value of a working day is equal to the product it yields, in other words, wages must be equal to the product of labour. But in fact the opposite is true. Ergo, this objection amounts to the problem, -- how does production on the basis of exchange-value solely determined by labour-time lead to the result that the exchange-value of labour is less than the exchange-value of its product? This problem is solved in our analysis of capital. "
http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch06.htmAll questions shall be answered. All confusion shall be eradicated.
Hi, (apologies to leo for this turning into a discussion about a small aspect of his original post – are we now trying to work out whether ‘labour’/’labour-power’ will be carried through into communism?)
As to the discussion itself, I agree with mikus about trawling through Marx’s work for clarification. But, I also think initial ‘confusion’ can help us to redefine the concepts in themselves and also what we want to do with them – that is, how they might help sharpen our experience of the world as it is, and aid us in the struggle against the reduction of our selves into abstract ‘labour power’.
This is the main issue isn’t it? The question of abstract utility, our function within the economy as general labour power in the overall accumulative cycle as opposed to our perception of ourselves as social individuals, as ends in ourselves. The conflict of interest between that of moment and that of the process. This is also the moment of antagonism in the concept ‘Labour power’, in the utility/veracity of it as a means of grasping expereince. It seems to me that in his original post Leo carries forward the abstract categories of capital into a revolutionary situation placing abstact ‘communism’ defined as labour for the common good, over that of the concrete interests of living human beings.
I think Marx used ‘labour power’ in a nuanced and flexible way, it becomes more defined according to the context it is used within and yet does not seem to have much concrete (permanent) substance in itself.
P.
ps I have found the ‘labour power’ wiki page useful.
These quotes get to the point quite well, but I also sense some inconsistency:
‘If, at first, the workman sells his labour power to capital, because the material means of producing a commodity fail him, now his very labour power refuses its services unless it has been sold to capital. Its functions can be exercised only in an environment that exists in the workshop of the capitalist after the sale.’Division of labour, capital vol 1
‘Along with the useful qualities of the products themselves, we put out of sight both the useful character of the various kinds of labour embodied in them, and the concrete forms of that labour; there is nothing left but what is common to them all; all are reduced to one and the same sort of labour, human labour in the abstract.‘Let us now consider the residue of each of these products; it consists of the same unsubstantial reality in each, a mere congelation of homogenous human labour, of labour power expended without regard to the mode of its expenditure. All that these things now tell us is that human labour power has been expended in their production, that human labour is embodied in them. When looked at as crystals of this social substance, common to them all, they are–Values.’
Commodities: use-value and exchange value capital vol 1
‘By labour power or capacity for labour is to be understood the aggregate of those mental and physical capabilities existing in a human being, which he exercises whenever he produces a use value of any description.’Marx, The sale of labour power, capital vol 1.
‘... the daily hours of labour increased greatly in the principal industries, which were then in a phase of ruthless expansion; and I believe that this arrested the fall in the rate of profit, because it arrested the fall in the rate of surplus value. In this case, however, whatever the circumstances, the normal working day is lengthened and the normal span of life of the labourer, hence the normal duration of his labour power, is correspondingly shortened.’Theories of surplus value.
Wait a minute, there seems to be some confusion. Economics may think that the capitalist buys labour power, but it doesn't. The labour power is only a potential, the capitalist can not use all our labour power. Now this does not mean that our labour is what determines wages, they are determined by a million interacting factors, and most importantly by the working classes ability to resist and struggle.Now I take all this from the fact Marx defines Labour Power as the ability of each person to wrok, whilst Labour is what we actual do. It seems obvious to me that the capitalist can not just buy our labour power and do what they want with it, because labour power is fundamentally different from any other commodity, it is a active agent, it can't be seperated from the worker.
I don't think anyone is saying that the capitalist can completely control our labor power, or that alienation in work is total. When a capitalist buys someones labor power, he expects to be able to put it to work at a certain average intensity, but what this level of intensity is in a particular industry, is a product of the class struggle as much as the level of pay that the worker receives. Also, what the capitalist buys is not necessarily what he gets, workers have a lot of ways to cheat the boss of his due labor: working slow, taking long breaks, spending your time on web forums when you should have been working...
Marx defines labor power as capacity for labor, but he also uses the terms labor - labor power as analogous to his division of the concrete, qualitative production of use-values, and the abstract, quantitative production of exchange values. The use-value of labor power is then labor itself. The capitalist uses the labor-power he buys by putting it to work, but he is not really interested in the actual concrete labor or the concrete product that it creates, only in the exchange value that it embodies.
I do think there is a general weakness in Marx' theories in that he on the one hand agrees that labor power is fundamentally different from any other commodity, but at the same time claims that it follows the same economic laws as every other commodity. But that is actually a whole other discussion.





did u just write that?