Just trying to get some things straight...

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
Submitted by clmyers on 22 January, 2008 - 13:43.

Hello, all. I'm relatively new to the study of Socialism, so I have a lot of questions about different things. As I have studied, though, I've discovered that I'm in agreement with a lot of the ideas of left-wing Communism (hence my posting on this board), but I'm not really sure I understand the specific differences between Anarcho-Communism, Council Communism, and Anarcho-Syndicalism. Fundamental to my own political philosophy are the ideas of workers' self-management (or workplace democracy, whichever term you prefer to use) and direct democracy (i.e., the abolition of all forms of representative government, instead placing all governmental power in the hands of the people via popular initiative and voting). I'm not really sure into which of the above-named currents that places me. So, I guess I'm really asking two questions: 1. What are the differences between the major schools of left Communist thought and, 2. Based on my political philosophy, where, in your opinion, do my ideas place me?

Please be kind enough to overlook my very elementary understanding of these things. I'm still learning (as are we all, I suppose). Thanks in advance for your help.

--Chris

12next ›last »
Anna
Posts: 494 Joined: 13-11-07 Location: London
22 January, 2008 - 13:54

Just call yourself a communist, and rather than seeking to immediately tie yourself to the mast of one of the respective flagships you mentioned, read into them more, try and identify the strengths and weaknesses of each, and attempt to create a synthesis of what is good, while rejecting what is less good.
I guess the quickest way to do this is to ensure that you put every theoretician you read into historical context, and you should pick up on what typifies each current and its development pretty quickly.

I'm sure someone will be kind enough to post brief synopses of each of the currents, and links to the works of leading lights, though.

xConorx "facts tend to cloud my judgement"
Posts: 9132 Joined: 09-12-04 Location: Belfast
22 January, 2008 - 14:04

There used to be a useful introductory glossary explaining these terms - it was a decent startring point anyway, but I can't seem to find it anymore. The old link, libcom.org/notes/glossary no longer works.
Perhaps someone can direct us to it.

ncwob "'I hope the bourgoeisie will remember my carbuncles until their dying day' - K. Marx "
Posts: 522 Joined: 05-10-07 Location: North Carolina
22 January, 2008 - 14:51

clmyers, you seem to be off to a very good start. I would recommend going with 'libertarian communist' as opposed to just 'communist' (you certainly seem to prefer the libertarian school to me).

Anwyay, you seem like you've done some reading already, but check out this thread, it's suggestions may help you refine your understanding of all these terms:

http://libcom.org/forums/thought/anarchists-class-26112007

Also, we've got a reading group going on that might interest you:

http://www.theoryandpractice.org.uk/forum/

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
22 January, 2008 - 16:43

Thank you ncwob for the links. I printed out a copy of Jon Bekken's "Anarchist Economics," which, while short, I thought contained a lot of food for thought. I've also begun reading Bakunin's "Stateless Socialism," which I have mixed feelings about at the moment. I suppose I understand his reasons for bashing Christianity to some degree, as perverted versions of it have been used to "drug the masses," as he puts it; nevertheless, I'm as annoyed whenever people lump all Christians together or bash Christianity in general as I am whenever people lump all Communists/Socialists together (like putting us in the same category as Leninists and Stalinists). Despite my misgivings regarding his attitude toward Christianity, I still agree with the gist of what he's written so far. I guess I should finish it first before I say anything else, though!

Anyway, as I said, I appreciate the links.

--Chris

zarathustra "Productivist-Workerist-Syndicalist "
Posts: 197 Joined: 08-12-07
22 January, 2008 - 17:09

Bekken's "anarchist economics" is very poor. For instance, he claims that the labor theory of value is a metaphysical load of crap "invented" by Marx.

Angelus Novus
Posts: 116 Joined: 27-07-06
22 January, 2008 - 18:58

Read _Capital_. And I.I. Rubin's _Essays on Marx's Theory of Value_, maybe Perlman's _The Reproduction of Daily Life_ for starters if you're intimidated by the first two.

Everything else is, not a waste of time, but rather inessential.

Avoid meaningless labels like "libertarian", "authoritarian", etc. The latter is merely an anarchist swearword, the former an empty signifier.

"Council Communist" is also an unfortunate phrase, since it confuses form with substance.

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 19:17
Quote:
For instance, he claims that the labor theory of value is a metaphysical load of crap "invented" by Marx.

You have a position on it too. How useful.

Tacks "in it to win it"
Posts: 4582 Joined: 08-11-05
22 January, 2008 - 19:19
clmyers wrote:
Hello, all. I'm relatively new to the study of Socialism, so I have a lot of questions about different things. As I have studied, though, I've discovered that I'm in agreement with a lot of the ideas of left-wing Communism (hence my posting on this board), but I'm not really sure I understand the specific differences between Anarcho-Communism, Council Communism, and Anarcho-Syndicalism. Fundamental to my own political philosophy are the ideas of workers' self-management (or workplace democracy, whichever term you prefer to use) and direct democracy (i.e., the abolition of all forms of representative government, instead placing all governmental power in the hands of the people via popular initiative and voting). I'm not really sure into which of the above-named currents that places me. So, I guess I'm really asking two questions: 1. What are the differences between the major schools of left Communist thought and, 2. Based on my political philosophy, where, in your opinion, do my ideas place me?

Please be kind enough to overlook my very elementary understanding of these things. I'm still learning (as are we all, I suppose). Thanks in advance for your help.

--Chris

rather than recommend a book, i'll say - consider what the different schools have actually done or advocated rather than simply said, and see how you feel about that as well.

It is possible have a very decent understanding of the nuances, purely from a practical level, with no reading of important texts whatsoever.

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
22 January, 2008 - 20:10

Tacks, that's an interesting approach. I honestly hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the idea.

--Chris

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 20:35
Quote:
perverted versions of it have been used to "drug the masses"

In what way were these versions perverse? Any road up, they were by far the best versions in retrospect. That’s the benefit of hindsight for you.

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
22 January, 2008 - 21:33

Carousel, I was referring to how some people take things in the Bible out of context to justify things like racial discrimination. Or, another example would be how some Christian leaders emphasize only the eternal aspects of the Christian message while completely ignoring the temporal aspects, meaning, in other words, that they teach Christians about going to heaven or avoiding hell but nothing about issues like putting an end to poverty. Those are perversions, in my opinion, because the true Christian message, as I understand it, is more "holistic" (I use the term very loosely), dealing with soul AND body, eternal AND temporal.

Now, all that being said, I DO NOT, under any circumstances, desire to get into an argument about religion. I'm only clarifying my previous statement.

--Chris

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 21:39
Quote:
some people take things in the Bible out of context to justify things like racial discrimination.

Name one.

Quote:
issues like putting an end to poverty

In what way is it an "issue"?

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
22 January, 2008 - 21:47

Well, if you want a particular example, some people use the OT command which prohibited the Hebrews from marrying non-Hebrews as an argument supposedly "proving" why interracial marriage is ungodly, which is, in my opinion, very much a form of racial prejudice. Furthermore, I've heard people cite the curse Noah places upon his grandson Canaan (although it was actually upon his son Ham) as one reason why Africans are supposedly forever doomed to be the servants of Europeans.

--Chris

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
22 January, 2008 - 21:48

Sorry, I forgot to respond to the second part of your post. By "issue," I simply mean "something that must be done." Maybe that's a crude definition, but that's what I meant. What did you understand me to mean?

--Chris

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 21:52

Ha ha. Do you think the Bible is, like, the true meaning of socialism or something?

Quote:
By "issue," I simply mean "something that must be done."

Why must something be done?

sam sanchez
Posts: 450 Joined: 08-09-05
22 January, 2008 - 21:53

Here are some good links that will answer your questions:

A.3.2 Are there different types of social anarchism?

A.4.4 Are there any Marxist thinkers close to anarchism?

Council communism - an introduction

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 21:56

Don't forget the Christian Socialist Movement. Don't tell me they're perverting the meaning of the bible...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Socialist_Movement_%28UK%29
And also the Fourth International Posadists...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posadism

sam sanchez
Posts: 450 Joined: 08-09-05
22 January, 2008 - 22:02

Leave it out Carousel.

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 22:03

Pray harder god-boy.

Tacks "in it to win it"
Posts: 4582 Joined: 08-11-05
22 January, 2008 - 22:43
clmyers wrote:
Tacks, that's an interesting approach. I honestly hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the idea.

--Chris

Ha ha!

Did you see that bitches?!

I rule.

Tacks "in it to win it"
Posts: 4582 Joined: 08-11-05
22 January, 2008 - 22:54

case in point - carousel. You could spend a lot of time talking to the chap, maybe even have a good time whilst doing it. Not exactly productive.

By their fruits ye shall no them.

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
22 January, 2008 - 23:46

Know them. Do Christians really sense the presence of the Lord? I wonder what organ they use for that.

Quote:
who gives a fuck if they're a christian?

Jesus. Do some Christians not hear voices? I bet they must feel a bit forgotten. Oh Lord why hast thou deserted me, and all that.

Tacks "in it to win it"
Posts: 4582 Joined: 08-11-05
23 January, 2008 - 00:06

you might as well be speaking urdu pal.

clmyers
Posts: 19 Joined: 19-01-08
23 January, 2008 - 03:13

"Pray harder god-boy." I have to admit, I found that be a bit humorous. I even chuckled a bit. I'm not really sure why this topic has veered so far off-course. Like I said, Carousel, I'm not going to get into an argument about religion with you or anyone else, OK? If you want to hate me because I'm a Christian, fine. If you don't, that's cool, too. I'm not out to impress anyone here. I was just looking for some good answers to my question.

ncwob "'I hope the bourgoeisie will remember my carbuncles until their dying day' - K. Marx "
Posts: 522 Joined: 05-10-07 Location: North Carolina
23 January, 2008 - 03:28

Chris,

Ignore Carousel, he likes to cause a lot of shit. Seriously, most of the time it's not even worth responding to him.

juozokas "when it's time to party we will always party hard"
Posts: 278 Joined: 05-11-07
23 January, 2008 - 04:15
Carousel wrote:
Quote:
some people take things in the Bible out of context to justify things like racial discrimination.

Name one.

Quote:
issues like putting an end to poverty

In what way is it an "issue"?

The whole 'mark of Cain' bit was supposed to be black skin and used to justify slavery

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
23 January, 2008 - 09:00

I don't deny it. By "name one", I mean they're neither contemporary, relevant, specific or out of context.

Quote:
Ignore Carousel, he likes to cause a lot of shit.

Oh shut up you light weight. It's no wonder lefties love the Christians so, watch as they circle their wagons and defend their supernatural beliefs. Another round in the ongoing mystical battle twixt the forces of good and evil.

Khawaga " - not a legendary physicist."
Posts: 965 Joined: 07-08-06
23 January, 2008 - 09:26

Chris, just ignore Carousel. He gives me a good chuckle from time to time, but I've almost never found it worthwhile to engage with him. And he does jump on any newcomer to the site just because he's more likely to sucker you into his spiel then.

I'd recommend you read the first chapter of Capital Vol. 1 for starters. Also in general I would recommend reading lots of working class history, then you can also get a grasp on what has been done by different "labels".

Carousel
Posts: 569 Joined: 19-09-07
23 January, 2008 - 10:05
Quote:
engage with him

And you can get fucked as well, "engagement" is for yoof workers.

Khawaga " - not a legendary physicist."
Posts: 965 Joined: 07-08-06
23 January, 2008 - 10:06
Quote:
And you can get fucked as well

You're such a flirt...

12next ›last »