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Knee-jerk anti-'Green' / anti-'Red' Ideology

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Augusto_Sandino
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Joined: 21-02-04
Mar 3 2004 11:18

But the greens, the feminists, all of these groups are, in my opinion, distracting from the true struggle. I have to do coursework on the suffragettes right now, and i condemned them becuase the real struggle of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is class. And the battle hasnt been won, gender "emancipation" happened because it was acceptable to capitalism, it distracted attention away from the class struggle. The feminists and greens are concentrating on the wrong issues, with class revolution will come gender emancipation and a greater concern for the environment. The anarchist greens are on the right lines, but i think theyre clouded from the real issue.

And whats so wrong with miners being "sexist"? Working class people are overwhelmingly sexist, i have an underlying sexism wether i like it or not, and most of us are pretty homophobic too. Thats our culture, deal with it.

blackcladmessenger
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Joined: 15-10-03
Mar 3 2004 12:20
Quote:
And whats so wrong with miners being "sexist"? Working class people are overwhelmingly sexist, i have an underlying sexism wether i like it or not, and most of us are pretty homophobic too. Thats our culture, deal with it.

Augusto_Sandino are you saying that this culture/attitudes should not be challenged? As an anarchist are you not against these attitudes? Or just for the working class uncritically?

GenerationDecay
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Joined: 5-11-03
Mar 3 2004 12:43
Quote:
And whats so wrong with miners being "sexist"? Working class people are overwhelmingly sexist, i have an underlying sexism wether i like it or not, and most of us are pretty homophobic too. Thats our culture, deal with it

No, it isn't 'our' culture.

This really bugs me, its reactionary, pure and simple. Why do you feel the need to try and define yourself against the middle-class elements of the movement by saying 'look at me, I'm sexist and homophobic BECAUSE I'm working class, I'm not concerned by such middle-class attitudes to gender and sexual equality, its just political correctness, the Express said it so it must be true...' I've seen this so many times, its pathetic, its patronising, and its insulting to the working-class who are usually at the forefront of struggles for equality.

The miners' attitudes changed as the strike wore on, generally the sexism/prejudice was replaced by increasing social awareness and recognition of who the real enemy was.

Racism is also a 'part' of working class 'culture', if we're working along the lines of your ignorant generalisations. Deal with it, right...?

roll eyes

Wayne
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Joined: 28-12-03
Mar 3 2004 13:06

Augusto, I hope I'm missing some sort of irony here...

Quote:
Working class people are overwhelmingly sexist, i have an underlying sexism wether i like it or not, and most of us are pretty homophobic too. Thats our culture, deal with it.

Sexism and homophobia are not "our" culture, they are ideological constructs developed by powerful groups over millenia (is that a word?). I can't begin to relate to people who fetishise working clarse stereotypes to this extent and when people talk about the one "true struggle" it scares me. I don't accept that all power strructures will disolve with an economic transformation- the historical experience of groups like Mujeras Libres (sp?) suggest this. I do not accept that the struggle for communism can be disconnected from the struggle to destroy other power structures that exist in opposition to the interests of the working class or elements thereof. I would support striking workers whether they are sexist, racist, homophobic or not (within reason). One of the great things about the class struggle is how workers become politicised to challenge sexism and homophobia (for example, during the miners struggles women played an active role and branches of the NUM sent banners to pride demonstrations). But there is a big difference between not being an isolated purist wanker and pretending that sexism and homophobia are "our culture" and therefor acceptable.

Wayne
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Mar 3 2004 13:09

Damn you Generation Decay! You must type quicker than me! embarrassed

Kalashnikov_Blues
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Joined: 19-09-03
Mar 3 2004 14:56
Quote:
And whats so wrong with miners being "sexist"? Working class people are overwhelmingly sexist, i have an underlying sexism wether i like it or not, and most of us are pretty homophobic too. Thats our culture, deal with it.

Ok, I ain't gonna rehash nothing, but I would like to point out that Sexisim is really no more prevelant in the "working class culture" then it is in any other one.

Same goes with homophobia, dude, if you got your insecurities, then fine, but don't paint the world with a reflection of yourself, just to make yourself feel better.

There are just as many sexist, racist and homosist (sorry got over excited) golf course treading CEO's as anyone else.

I think it's really ignorant to say shit like that is a "part" of the Working Class, like it some sort of prerequisite.

Actually... come to think of it, right after the part about criminal offences on my job application, there were check boxes for Sexist (you could pick which one, male or female you disliked more), Racist (with space to write where you thought best to send 'em)... hmmm so maybe you have a point.

Augusto_Sandino
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Joined: 21-02-04
Mar 3 2004 15:47

Im not saying its acceptable, im just saying that if all the workers were sexist, then it wouldnt be right to tell them not to be. Just becuase you had a supposed "moral superiority", which of course, we dont. As anarchists. Besides, im happy to be wrong on this, the revolution would iron out sexism and racism, and these are dying out as it is, espescially among the young.

Kalashnikov_Blues
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Mar 3 2004 16:03
Quote:
Im not saying its acceptable, im just saying that if all the workers were sexist, then it wouldnt be right to tell them not to be. Just becuase you had a supposed "moral superiority", which of course, we dont.

So based on that we have no right to say that the capitalist system within which we live, is wrong.... right? Cuz everyone else thinks it's ok...

And to be fair, what you said before wasn't in the future tense of "if", it was a statement that they were.

People are people regardless of class and the faults of one are evident in all, across the barriers of class, race & sex, and equally evident and influential in all.

I think these things are part of the Revolution, they are integral to the whole of the movement. and the "Revolution" will mean fuck all if these things aren't in place along side the fighting, as they are part of what we are fighting against.

I'm not pickin a fight, only pointing stuff out. At least you happy to be wrong, which is more then can be saide for most.

Jacques Roux's picture
Jacques Roux
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Joined: 17-07-06
Mar 3 2004 16:08
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Im not saying its acceptable, im just saying that if all the workers were sexist, then it wouldnt be right to tell them not to be.

So if there is a majority on something they are automatically right? The majority of goverments are crap - so that makes them right?

Just because society is rascist / sexist doesnt mean you cant challenge that. You dont have to tell anyone what to do, but you dont just put your head down and ignore it.

If you are walking down the street and someone shouts "OI PAKI! GET OUT" at some bloke walking past you, do you think "Oh thats ok, hes rascist, but hes a WORKER, mustn alienate him so i'll just shut up"?

Quote:
the revolution would iron out sexism and racism,

The revolution? Sorry i cant wait that long. I'd rather stopped getting rascist abuse NOW.

Quote:
these are dying out as it is, espescially among the young.

Umm how old are you? Young people can be just as bigotted as older people, if not more so often.

dissident
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Joined: 29-09-03
Mar 3 2004 22:31
Augusto_Sandino wrote:
But the greens, the feminists, all of these groups are, in my opinion, distracting from the true struggle. I have to do coursework on the suffragettes right now, and i condemned them becuase the real struggle of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is class. And the battle hasnt been won, gender "emancipation" happened because it was acceptable to capitalism, it distracted attention away from the class struggle. The feminists and greens are concentrating on the wrong issues, with class revolution will come gender emancipation and a greater concern for the environment. The anarchist greens are on the right lines, but i think theyre clouded from the real issue.

And whats so wrong with miners being "sexist"? Working class people are overwhelmingly sexist, i have an underlying sexism wether i like it or not, and most of us are pretty homophobic too. Thats our culture, deal with it.

yeah right cos you're ever gonna get your revolution without 50% of the working class on board.

twat.

dissident
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Mar 3 2004 22:34
Augusto_Sandino wrote:
Im not saying its acceptable, im just saying that if all the workers were sexist, then it wouldnt be right to tell them not to be. Just becuase you had a supposed "moral superiority", which of course, we dont. As anarchists. Besides, im happy to be wrong on this, the revolution would iron out sexism and racism, and these are dying out as it is, espescially among the young.

the revolution will never happen without getting rid of racism or sexism you arse, they're some of the ways in which the ruling classes divide the working class!!!

or is the working class just white and male for you?

in which case good luck! i'd like to see any revolution you dream of .... 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' ...

as for 'if all the workers were sexist' ... what crap! ALL the workers? even the women? oh no, women aren't workers right? roll eyes

THIS is why so many women can't be arsed to get involved with anarcho-theory-debate. cos it's blokes willy-waving and not seeing the real world around them that's why.

butchersapron
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Joined: 25-07-05
Mar 3 2004 22:52

Are you then arguing that *all* sexism and racism has to be wiped out prior to any revolutionary upheavel? That it's a prerequisite - because that's simply not the way revolutions happen - Marty Glaberman made a very good point about this (in relation to a diff argument) when he argued that:

"It's essentially to reject the idea that nothing can happen until white workers are no longer racist. I don't know what anybody thinks the Russian workers in 1917 were. They were sexist. They were nationalist. A lot of them were under the thumb of the church. But they made a goddamn revolution that began to change them. Whether there's a social explosion or not doesn't depend on any formal attitudes or supporting this particular organisation or that particular organisation. It may not happen. In which case we all go down the tubes; I can't help that."

We can't say that people will behave better after a revolution because material conditions have changed on one hand, but then argue that that same revolution cannot happen until that change has been made on the other. It's inconsistent and contradictory.

And i guess most of us have examples of that real change through struggle happening - i saw it in the poll tax in particular - people who some would not have wanted to be involved as they were 'sexist' or whatever who were changed through the experience of collective struggle.

Now that's not to say that we should let sexist or racist etc behaviour go unchallenged - just that laying down a pre-conditon that all people behave in one way as a prior condition to any revolutionary movement is not only impossible but it's also counter-productive. It operates on a static basis that assumes that this is what people are and misses the whole emancipatory and dynamic point of anarchism and anarchists struggle - that collective struggle changes us and helps us to open us to out social nature and so ideas like sexism are worthless.

dissident
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Joined: 29-09-03
Mar 4 2004 10:24

i'm not saying that we should wait until racism, sexism etc have been completely got rid of, i'm saying that getting rid of them is PART of the process! and it's not an optional part. it's essential. only by working to break down ALL kinds of barriers which divide the working class can lasting social change be achieved.

imo of course. wink

phoebe
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Joined: 20-09-03
Mar 4 2004 12:52

Saying that you can't tell a worker they're a bastard for being sexist is complete bullshit. I've got no more respect for a working class sexist than a working class nazi. They're shit. You'd call a working class pig a traitor, why won't you do it to a working class patriarch or a working class racist?

No more idealisation of the "glorious" working classes. We're all fucking human with flaws that need to be admitted before anything useful can be done about fixing our situation.

Anyone who thinks that racism and sexism are disappearing amongst youth has their head up their fucking arse as well.

Augusto_Sandino
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Joined: 21-02-04
Mar 4 2004 14:51

Yeah, actually, i thought about and i was wrong. Im sorry. You have to be on your guard, for sexism, racism, etc. I dont honestly know why i said it was ok for miners to be sexist. I guess i have a high opinion of the miners. Its a problem that can be solved, or is solving itself. No need to get so hung up on it people.

The only thing i would say, is that the revolution would get rid of sexism. In the heat of battle, i would think you dont tend to care wether the person next to you is a man, a woman, whatever, as long as you trust them and they're firing off as many bullets as possible. That is going to result in a certain mentality change to the opposite sex.

Augusto_Sandino
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Joined: 21-02-04
Mar 4 2004 14:58

And as for "Dissident", you dont need to pull out the big guns just becuase i said one contraversial, and stupid thing. You dont know me, so you can hardly say im white, or black, a man, a woman, working class, middle class. And swearing alot and making insults is never going to be as effective as sociably putting the other side of a debate.

And if you didnt read the last message, read it, becuase im sorry.

butchersapron
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Joined: 25-07-05
Mar 4 2004 15:16

Nice one Sandino - it's very easy to fire off something in heated debate or write something that makes you cringe when you re-read it, but it's a lot harder to actually face up to it and say that you were wrong and that you've thought about it again and came to a different conclusion.

GenerationDecay
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Mar 4 2004 15:30
phoebe wrote:
Saying that you can't tell a worker they're a bastard for being sexist is complete bullshit. I've got no more respect for a working class sexist than a working class nazi. They're shit. You'd call a working class pig a traitor, why won't you do it to a working class patriarch or a working class racist?

No more idealisation of the "glorious" working classes. We're all fucking human with flaws that need to be admitted before anything useful can be done about fixing our situation.

Anyone who thinks that racism and sexism are disappearing amongst youth has their head up their fucking arse as well.

Is it me or do paragraphs one and two in the above post totally contradict each other.

If we are going to admit that we are all human and all have flaws, then surely that negates calling someone whose sexism/racism is based on ignorance a 'bastard'. The police are a different matter, they are class traitors, they are an institutionally racist/sexist institution. They are part of the system, they are the enemy. An individual working-class sexist or racist can be educated. This doesn't mean, obviously, that you treat them with kid gloves, and if their ideas are in any way affecting others you let them know about it, if they join the BNP or whatever you no-platform their asses etc, but simply discounting someone purely because they have those ideas is pointless. Many people are just products of the culture they grow up in, and its our job to change the culture as well as the system.

ps Augusto Sandino, respect. Sorry if I went off on one at you a bit smile

dissident
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Mar 4 2004 16:37
Augusto_Sandino wrote:
Yeah, actually, i thought about and i was wrong. Im sorry. You have to be on your guard, for sexism, racism, etc. I dont honestly know why i said it was ok for miners to be sexist. I guess i have a high opinion of the miners. Its a problem that can be solved, or is solving itself. No need to get so hung up on it people.

i don't think it IS solving itself tho - i think that's very complacent. it's soemthing that as you say everyone needs to be aware of, to challenge and to work to get rid of. it doesn't just happen through generational change.

also, tehre are a lot of people who are working very hard to challenge racism and sexism, and to write that off as 'it'll go away gradually anyway' is pretty dismissive of their hard work isn't it? better to acknowledge their hard work!

but thanks for the apology smile to be honest i suspected you were trollign a bit wink so sorry for that!

Quote:
The only thing i would say, is that the revolution would get rid of sexism. In the heat of battle, i would think you dont tend to care wether the person next to you is a man, a woman, whatever, as long as you trust them and they're firing off as many bullets as possible. That is going to result in a certain mentality change to the opposite sex.

but do you think we'll ever achieve a revolution without getting 50% of the workers on board (as i asked above)? i don't think so. i think that a (successful/true) revolution will only come about when everyone is into it. saying that 'ah the women and non-white people will get on board once we get the revolution going' is vanguardism innit??? the whole point of @ as i understand it is taht you don't just sit there complacently going 'well we're enlightened, now we can tell everyone else what's best' - but having a revolution without feminism and anti-racism being part of it isn't gonna work. imo.

dissident
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Joined: 29-09-03
Mar 4 2004 16:38
Augusto_Sandino wrote:
And as for "Dissident", you dont need to pull out the big guns just becuase i said one contraversial, and stupid thing. You dont know me, so you can hardly say im white, or black, a man, a woman, working class, middle class. And swearing alot and making insults is never going to be as effective as sociably putting the other side of a debate.

And if you didnt read the last message, read it, becuase im sorry.

well if you post stupid things expect to get slayed wink

ok, sorry if you were offended, but you SERIOUSLY offended me.

so, quits then?

circle A

Augusto_Sandino
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Mar 5 2004 09:51

Yeah, its quits, i say lots of things that i change on second thoughts embarrassed.

And as for vanguardism, i think it's probably inescapable that there is going to be some form of vanguard. In Spain, not everyone was a member of the CNT, the CNT did most of the revolutionaryising along with the UGT etc. So there has to be someone leading the thing. The real issue is that they dont need to all be white and male.