Laws Without A State?

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Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Aug 21 2007 11:10

Ha ha. How's your increased expression of VMAT2 genes coming along comrades? I bet neither of you are alcoholics.

fort-da game
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Aug 21 2007 11:41
jef costello wrote:
You've been aggressive from the beginning you fucking cocksucker so let's be clear.

The problem is this: Libcom has defined itself, no doubt rightly, via the act of expelling certain traits and affinities which it identified with certain individuals – if it had not done this there would only be the continued mess of enrager.com. However, all definition includes contradiction and these contradictions must be later addressed. Red is speaking from a position of that which was designated as beyond the pale. However, it now seems that those traits and affinities which Libcom projected onto those it (effectively) expelled in its formation actually also logically belong to Libcom users, and must be included if Libcom is not to end up making pro-capitalist statements in favour of the rule of Law.

Every organisation reaches a moment where it is futile to continue to externalise that which properly belongs within its own frame, and it becomes necessary to consider how what has been disavowed might be reconciled. The return of the repressed is sometimes a violent matter, and yet what has been repressed will only be accepted back if it appears in a different guise, or at a higher level of sophistication if you like. Even so, the ‘work of the other’ is vital to the continuation of all internal group power relations – the content of its work is to become part of the included, and for this to occur, the other must raise its appeal and become irresistible. To put this clearly, I want to raise my arguments to a level where they have to be included, and so I am trying to speak in new terms for that which was once dismissed in the formation of Libcom as hippy. liberal, utopian, mad. My motivation is that certain strands in the arguments being made against these excluded designations (which I accept at the time were necessary) are now becoming indefensibly leftist.

In all social forms, it is always a question of the route that must be taken by that which was once excluded for it to be reconciled with the included – for this to happen a shift in the rules of belonging must also occur. When this reordering has been completed and the account of how the parts are fitted together has been written, it will inevitably become apparent that either some other element is found to be logically excluded by the internal relations or that some element must be actively excluded because it now does not conform to the new boundaries that have been set.

Through knowledge of this process by which what was once beyond the pale becomes included, and once re-included in a new guise causes the transformation of the internal relations, ie precipitating previous included forms to be cast out, we arrive at a position where Law as such is no longer required but is replaced by a more conscious understanding of what form necessity has taken (ie in the endless cycle of expulsions and inclusions that make up human society).

lem
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Aug 21 2007 23:37

do you really support torture thug i mean you'd be like john bowden but disliked by anarchists wink

i'd like to discuss torture actually [toy soldiers yada yada] but it seems to me to be used mostly by authoritarian regimes or regimes wrapped in ideology it's a bit mindless isn't it? we should be so great that our very auras are as effective as any torture laugh out loud

lem
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Aug 23 2007 19:49

yes red hughes either you're saying that we will be so pure that we will be unable to commit evil acts after the transition which is sci-fi ruubbish; or evil acts will be quickly and easily punishable with death so we won't need prisons. the only reason to think this is preferable is "waa the state" which is childish.

in my eyes you are a wannabe murderer brutal thug and i wouldn't want to live in such a society because of fear [and the distortion of justice].

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Lazy Riser
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Aug 23 2007 23:00
Quote:
i wouldn't want to live in such a society

For the umpteenth time, it’s not a nice idea, it’s necessary.

RedHughs
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Aug 24 2007 01:25
Quote:
yes red hughes either you're saying that we will be so pure that we will be unable to commit evil acts after the transition which is sci-fi ruubbish; or evil acts will be quickly and easily punishable with death so we won't need prisons. the only reason to think this is preferable is "waa the state" which is childish.

in my eyes you are a wannabe murderer brutal thug and i wouldn't want to live in such a society because of fear [and the distortion of justice].

Hmm,

My original point was that if a prison or a system of laws exists as a social institution, it is because it deals behaviors that are normal and common within the society. People don't have to be perfect for "rape, murder, child molesting and cannibalism" to not be normal occurrences. Now, if these are quite unusual occurrences, then the mechanism to deal with them could be ad-hoc. I mentioned that the death penalty was one option that would solve the problem of keeping someone indefinitely. The deserted Island approach might also be tried, whatever. The point is that would be an ad-hoc method to deal with an usual occurrence.

The problem is that there is population of people here who can't get the idea that the common social institutions of a social relationship are one thing and "what would happen if [some random event you pull out of your ass] under communism" is another thing.

As far as "murder" goes, there's no doubt that given high-tech militarism of the ruling class, a successful (or even unsuccessful but aggressive) communist revolution would involve tremendous blood shed - if your advocating that, then, by your timid definition of thuggery, you too are a "murderer brutal thug". Course, the continuation of capitalism will likely involve massive murder as well, so you just can't win.

Lazy's right too, none of this is a matter of choosing your society like you choose a meal at a restaurant.

I do think that so-called sociopathic behavior will be much rarer under fully developed communism - you can even look certain capitalist societies (Japan and Scandinavia) that, at least at some periods, have had much lower rates of violent crime than others (US and South Africa). A communist society would certainly have ways of reducing this even further (unless it was collectively felt that deciding deputes via MMA matches was a satisfying and uplifting approach but here too, violence would be dealt with without the state).

Anyway, the pathetic stupidity of the prisons/law/etc thread is mostly about folks' fixation the sociopaths and the need to control them and how much that speaks to an inability to imagine a world fundamentally different from the present one.

I could go on but it seems like you barely read my previous posts.

Later,

Red

lem
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Aug 24 2007 01:32
Quote:
People don't have to be perfect for "rape, murder, child molesting and cannibalism" to not be normal occurrences.

what a rediculous straw man

Quote:
Lazy's right too, none of this is a matter of choosing your society like you choose a meal at a restaurant.

you started the thread!

i think a discussion of Law is not a matter of choosing your society but a question of how we ourselves are and will distort or use or relate to Law.

Quote:
I could go on but it seems like you barely read my previous posts.

your posts are almost as "excruciating" to read as redtwister's - him apologizing and wringing his hands for his intelligence and education; you loudly proclaiming the opposite.

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Khawaga
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Aug 24 2007 09:42
Quote:
Anyway, the pathetic stupidity of the prisons/law/etc thread is mostly about folks' fixation the sociopaths and the need to control them and how much that speaks to an inability to imagine a world fundamentally different from the present one.

I am not clairvoyant, though it seems like many of the folks on the laws/prison/whatever threads are.

Anyway, it's not a fixation. That's what people like you have. Most of us have said there will clearly be close to no fucking psychos around. But if there's even one on every continent you'd still have to do something. Ad-hoc is not a bad idea, still the outcome of that could be very different from place to place (execution in one place, isolation in another, three new babies to eat it yet another place, or the sociopath realized his sins in front of a workers' jury and realizes that he's been wrong and everyone lives happily ever after in the fairy-hippe-land with bubbles for clouds and candy as the flora ).

Personally I get this question a lot (together with the one that everyone won't do anything productive coz there will be no incentive to do anything and other questions like that) from folks when I discuss anarchism with them. So it helps to have some arguments for these types of discussions, and sorry (and I've tried this) most people I've talked to do not get that there will have been a massive social change that would've created entirely new men and women. They project the present onto the future, which is only natural. This is why I am interested in the question, not because I think it will have any bearing on communist society in 200 years time or whatever.

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jef costello
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Aug 24 2007 11:08
fort-da game wrote:
The problem is this: Libcom has defined itself, no doubt rightly, via the act of expelling certain traits and affinities which it identified with certain individuals – if it had not done this there would only be the continued mess of enrager.com. However, all definition includes contradiction and these contradictions must be later addressed. Red is speaking from a position of that which was designated as beyond the pale. However, it now seems that those traits and affinities which Libcom projected onto those it (effectively) expelled in its formation actually also logically belong to Libcom users, and must be included if Libcom is not to end up making pro-capitalist statements in favour of the rule of Law.

Every organisation reaches a moment where it is futile to continue to externalise that which properly belongs within its own frame, and it becomes necessary to consider how what has been disavowed might be reconciled. The return of the repressed is sometimes a violent matter, and yet what has been repressed will only be accepted back if it appears in a different guise, or at a higher level of sophistication if you like. Even so, the ‘work of the other’ is vital to the continuation of all internal group power relations – the content of its work is to become part of the included, and for this to occur, the other must raise its appeal and become irresistible. To put this clearly, I want to raise my arguments to a level where they have to be included, and so I am trying to speak in new terms for that which was once dismissed in the formation of Libcom as hippy. liberal, utopian, mad. My motivation is that certain strands in the arguments being made against these excluded designations (which I accept at the time were necessary) are now becoming indefensibly leftist.

In all social forms, it is always a question of the route that must be taken by that which was once excluded for it to be reconciled with the included – for this to happen a shift in the rules of belonging must also occur. When this reordering has been completed and the account of how the parts are fitted together has been written, it will inevitably become apparent that either some other element is found to be logically excluded by the internal relations or that some element must be actively excluded because it now does not conform to the new boundaries that have been set.

Through knowledge of this process by which what was once beyond the pale becomes included, and once re-included in a new guise causes the transformation of the internal relations, ie precipitating previous included forms to be cast out, we arrive at a position where Law as such is no longer required but is replaced by a more conscious understanding of what form necessity has taken (ie in the endless cycle of expulsions and inclusions that make up human society).

I'm not sure you're right here because you don't seem able to decide whether you are treating libcom as a group or as a psyche. Are you using a Freudian model or a Lacanian one?

Quote:
My original point was that if a prison or a system of laws exists as a social institution, it is because it deals behaviors that are normal and common within the society. People don't have to be perfect for "rape, murder, child molesting and cannibalism" to not be normal occurrences. Now, if these are quite unusual occurrences, then the mechanism to deal with them could be ad-hoc. I mentioned that the death penalty was one option that would solve the problem of keeping someone indefinitely. The deserted Island approach might also be tried, whatever. The point is that would be an ad-hoc method to deal with an usual occurrence.

Having a mechanism doesn't necessarily mean that something is a regular event. For example flooding might only occur every fifty years in a particular place, it doesn't mean that they won't construct defences. It is sensible to set up protocols as a guide, they might not necessarily be followed by a particular community.