On the meaning of the French youth and student revolt
Mar 16 2006 08:13
On the 'French youth and student revolt' thread there has been a certain reluctance to discuss the significance of the protest movement in a 'political' way. This is understandable due to the lack of awareness of what's going on over there. While Libcom's move to create a blog is useful in raising awareness of the events, it does so at the risk, firstly, of limiting coverage of the events to 'a-political' reportage. This is totally against the spirit of the protests where there is a great passion and desire to discuss politics, marxism and communism.
Secondly, by relying on the bourgeoisie's media (Liberation, Le Monde etc.) there is the risk of introducing the ruling class' own 'analysis' in by the back door. For example, the bourgeois press is very keen to present the students as 'the elite' and to make links between the current movement and the November 'banlieu' riots, of the protests at the Sorbonne 'that turned violent'. All of which are false.
So the purpose of this thread is to try to encourage reflection and discussion of the events, and the perspectives contained within the international situation. This post is by way of a brief introduction to the significance of the movement.
Beltov.
This is a very important movement. It is in response to a direct and brutal attack on the proletariat. It is a movement that has seen unity between generations within the class, which has seen the most advanced parts of the movement understanding the need to go to the class. Student assemblies have sent delegations to the local factories, dole offices etc. in order to try and spread the struggle. Students and education workers have been on strike together, some for a month or so.
This is a movement of young ‘pre-proletarians’. They are the children of the proletariat. Another reflection of the proletarian nature of the struggles is the powerful desire to discuss political issues. There is openness to political ideas. The general assemblies are open to the intervention of communists. The movement is in response to an economic attack made against the whole class and raises questions about the bankruptcy of capitalism, about its inability to offer the class anything for the future, apart from insecurity and poverty. Students have been saying that this attack is putting workers back into the working conditions of the 19th century.
There was an almost total blackout until the end of last week. Compare this to the around the clock, special coverage of the riots in the suburbs of Paris last year where the bourgeoisie around the globe drove home the message that the riots were an expression of a desperate, hopeless and increasing violent youth who cared for nothing apart from rage, hate and destruction. The movement today is the antithesis of the riots. The current movement seeks to unite, to organise itself, to go to the rest of the class, to think and reflect etc: it is giving positive lessons to those involved and to the class generally. The whole movement is seen as a class movement: it is about an attack on the class and how to respond. No wonder the bourgeoisie are trying to keep a lid on it!
The importance of the struggle is further confirmed if we compare it to May 1968. This movement is not of the same historical significance as ‘68, which marked the end of the counter-revolution, but it marks several important developments:
1. In 1968 the students’ heads were brimming with illusions about capitalism, individual revolt etc. Today the students have not grown up in the period of reconstruction, but in the deepening economic crisis. Their parents have not had the experience of the massive defeat of the counter-revolution but of 30 years of struggles. The students today are directly protesting against the fact that when they finish their studies they will be faced with the worst forms of insecurity and exploitation. Thus, the pre-proletarians who in the past could have illusions about not being part of the class, of being able to get better jobs, are now directly posed with fact that they are going to face the same working conditions as the rest of the class.
2. 1968 was marked by an atmosphere of generational struggle, the revolt of the young against the old: “Don't trust anyone over 30” was a common slogan. Today the students in struggle want to unite with the rest of the class; they want to discuss with their parents, relatives and anyone else who can tell them about 1968.
3. Whilst in ‘68 there was a lot of talk about revolution, the students were very wary of political organisations. Today we have found that the students are very open to our interventions and presence, they want to hear what we have to say, they want to discuss. In 68 the idea of communism was much talked about but mixed up with all sorts of ideas. Today after 15 years of systematic anti-communist propaganda the fact that amongst the students we have found a real desire to discuss communism is an impression of the wider importance of the period.
This movement is having an important impact on the younger generations, not only those directly involved, but all young workers are going to reflect upon what is taking place. This reflection is also taking place around the role of the unions for example, who are seeking to keep the movement under control. The unions will take advantage of the fact that the movement is very heterogeneous. Only half the universities are on strike or involved in the movement and within these there are many different levels of understanding. The leftists are also developing their presence in the movement. Even if the movement is in its final stages a lot has already been won. The experience of struggle itself is the first victory!
The ICC has so far produced so far produced two leaflets and the presentation to the Paris public meeting: All are available on the ICC’s websites in many languages. Our comrades have intervened in the assemblies and co-ordinating organs. The responses to our interventions have been very positive. In Paris we intervened at the initial meeting of a co-ordinating body for all of the struggling faculties in the Paris region: comrades intervened as workers and parents and were able to intervene several times in order to put forwards the need to go to the workers etc. The only opposition came at the end of the meeting when a leftist said that maybe observers should only be allowed to observe next time:
* On the demonstrations comrades report that they are having very serious discussions with those participating about communism, communist politics etc. Previously people had brought our press and discussed general things but in this movement there is a real sense of a intense desire to understand, of wanting an alternative. There is a real sense of an important deepening taking place.
* At the ICC’s public meeting in Paris the young generation were well represented. The level of questions asked was very impressive: What are the differences between today and 1968?; What is the meaning of the movement?; Is it a proletarian movement?; What are the differences with the riots? The discussion was very powerful and it was very inspiring to see the earnestness and enthusiasm of the younger participants. To be able to help them grapple with the questions they posed was moving. This was even more so, given that only a few months ago, comrades were discussing the terrible impact of the riots.
Mar 17 2006 08:13
#2
Beltov said:
Quote:
There was an almost total blackout until the end of last week. Compare this to the around the clock, special coverage of the riots in the suburbs of Paris last year where the bourgeoisie around the globe drove home the message that the riots were an expression of a desperate, hopeless and increasing violent youth who cared for nothing apart from rage, hate and destruction.
It's interesting how the BBC have now suddenly started to show pictures of pitched battles with the police, along with the obligatory set piece of a burnt out car. For the bourgeois media, all the other elements of this struggle are utterly invisible "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". This is the "freedom of the press" they want us to defend against those reactionary Islamisists.
Mar 17 2006 12:53
#3
Alf - Jason was only teasing, relax.
Much of what is said on here is very relevant and accurate, especially this:
Beltov wrote:
The students today are directly protesting against the fact that when they finish their studies they will be faced with the worst forms of insecurity and exploitation. Thus, the pre-proletarians who in the past could have illusions about not being part of the class, of being able to get better jobs, are now directly posed with fact that they are going to face the same working conditions as the rest of the class.
This is very important. In '68, many active students were headed towards middle manager/cadre roles and that undoubtedly soured their resolve and created artificial divisions between them and factory workers. It is hardly surprising that the students today apparently feel that they have nothing to lose.
I think what we're all waiting for is for the revolt to spread beyond educational institutions. Tomorrow's the union march, it'll be interesting to see what happens. For the while, I'll content myself with the steady stream of riot porn. 8)
Mar 17 2006 13:12
#4
Alan (etc)
Appreciate your post. I'm relaxed. But I don't get the point at the end about riot porn. The rest of your post is serious, and recognises one of the major changes between now and 68 the inexorable deepening of the economic crisis and the impact that has on consciousness.
One of the major differences between this movement and the 'banlieu' riots was that through the assemblies, commissions, demonstrations and innumerable informal channels of discussion, there is a real focus for debate, for the taking of collective decisions, and the development of consciousness. This was totally absent from the riots, which had a negative, divisive impact on the class as a whole. Maybe you were just teasing as well, but it is important to stress the differences between the two movements at the very time that the ruling class is trying to assimilate them.
Mar 17 2006 13:33
#5
Alf the "riot porn" comment was again tongue in cheek, but a reflection of the escalation of the revolt. You telling me that you don't find people turning over cars in order to make barricades exciting??
Mar 17 2006 13:50
#6
What makes a barricade important or exciting is the movement, purpose, and consciousness behind it. If it's part of a dead-end self-destructive riot, no, it's not 'exciting', because it can weaken the class movement. If it's a moment in workers' self-defence, part of a movement which is growng in consciousness and self-organisation, it's a different matter. The real question here is why has there been so little apparent interest in really exciting phenomena like the development of the assemblies at places like Censier?
Mar 17 2006 13:53
#7
Alf wrote:
the development of the assemblies at places like Censier?
Any info on this?
(NB - This is why reporting is important...)
Mar 17 2006 13:55
#8
Ony english language thing I can find on this is by the ICC
Quote:
At the college of Censier, the general assembly of students decided to send a massive delegation to bring food to their comrades shut in the Sorbonne by a ring of cops.
Severl hundred students forced their way into the Sorbone, getting in through the windows. But the movement of solidarity with their comrades taken hostage in the trap of occupying the Sorbonne was very heterogeneous. Some students, notably those from censier, tried to discuss with the police riot squads. Some raise the slogan “CRS, join us”,[1] while others shouted “Put Sarkozy on the RMI”.[2] The cops didn’t charge, even if the most excitable ones engaged in some pushing and shoving and some discreet truncheon blows. Despite these skirmishes, to our knowledge there were no arrests at this point. The “forces of order” had obviously received the order not to charge, which enabled the students to get into the Sobonne. Several hundred students had thus fallen into a trap.
and this by the SWorker
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8486
Quote:
One of the strongest and best organised of France’s student occupations is at Paris III-Censier university. Marie Périn, a student activist at Censier and member of the Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire, writes about how students are building solidarity with workers and academic staff
Mar 17 2006 15:52
#9
Quote:
Since we have seen with our own eyes what has been going on in these general assemblies at Censier, we can clearly affirm that they function on the model of the workers’ councils. The richness of the discussion, where everyone can speak and express their point of view, the way the tribune organises the debates, the votes, the creation of different commissions, the nomination of delegates elected and revocable by the general assemblies, this whole dynamic, this method of struggle are those which have arisen in the highest moments of the class struggle: in 1905 and 1917 in Russia, in 1918 in Germany, in Poland during the mass strike of August 1980.
From the ICC's web article at http://en.internationalism.org/node/1722
As even that short extract shows, these movements are very significant in terms of both their form and content.
Mar 17 2006 23:24
#10
Quote:
Severl hundred students forced their way into the Sorbone, getting in through the windows. But the movement of solidarity with their comrades taken hostage in the trap of occupying the Sorbonne was very heterogeneous. Some students, notably those from censier, tried to discuss with the police riot squads. Some raise the slogan “CRS, join us”,[1] while others shouted “Put Sarkozy on the RMI”.[2] The cops didn’t charge, even if the most excitable ones engaged in some pushing and shoving and some discreet truncheon blows. Despite these skirmishes, to our knowledge there were no arrests at this point. The “forces of order” had obviously received the order not to charge, which enabled the students to get into the Sobonne. Several hundred students had thus fallen into a trap.
That's only part of the truth 
CRS were protecting one street infront of the Sorbonne: the one which gives access to the Honor Court, which is Rue de la Sorbonne. But, when 2000 students from Tolbiac (paris 1 university) arrived and invaded the streets behind the Sorbonne (Rue St Jacques). It took perhaps a half an hour before CRS noticed that people were entering the Sorbonne by the windows.
Haha.
Non à l'effort de guerre économique!!!!
Mar 18 2006 16:50
#11
Alf wrote:
The real question here is why has there been so little apparent interest in really exciting phenomena like the development of the assemblies at places like Censier?
Well if thousands of cars were bieng burnt that would be exciting. All that maturity, thoughtfullness, solidarity, debating, self-organising stuff is BORING. Assemblies at the Censier=YAWN! Occupation of the Sorbone=exciting. WHat did you expect ALF?
Sarcasm aside, the maturity of this movement is quite surprising and so fraking impressive. The lungs of the movement are at places like Censier. The assemblies apparently are functioning like workers' general assemblies. This is really exciting stuff, I'm half-expecting the alarm to go off soon and wake me up.
There's hope in the new generation of workers.
Mar 18 2006 17:08
#12
we're working on new coverage of censier - can't write about things we're unaware of, and precious little about it in english anywhere.
some photos here for a start:
http://www.libcom.org/gallery/v/news/france-cpe/occupations/
Mar 18 2006 21:02
#13
alibadani wrote:
Alf wrote:
The real question here is why has there been so little apparent interest in really exciting phenomena like the development of the assemblies at places like Censier?Well if thousands of cars were bieng burnt that would be exciting. All that maturity, thoughtfullness, solidarity, debating, self-organising stuff is BORING. Assemblies at the Censier=YAWN! Occupation of the Sorbone=exciting. WHat did you expect ALF?
Sarcasm aside, the maturity of this movement is quite surprising and so fraking impressive. The lungs of the movement are at places like Censier. The assemblies apparently are functioning like workers' general assemblies. This is really exciting stuff, I'm half-expecting the alarm to go off soon and wake me up.
There's hope in the new generation of workers.
First you complain that there is analysis and no news
Then you complain that there is no news.
What the hell are you doing?
If we are not reporting assemblies, its because can't find information on them.
Send us information and we'd be glad to put it up.
There are a few people who have put a tremendous amount of work into this and all you can do is complain.
The attacks by fascists have been reported when they have taken place. The police collusion has been reported. As have the token arrests of fascists after reports emerged of collusion.
The ICC has members in France, do they have any accounts, photos etc that they would like to share?
Mar 18 2006 22:12
#14
I've just been speaking on the phone to one of our comrades in France. He spoke at the Censier assembly the other day. He told the assembly that he had been talking on the phone to his son who lives in England; his son said that he had heard nothing about the events in France until the press published pictures of burning cars. My comrade said to the assembly 'You know that the government controls the media, so who's interest does it serve to present this whole movement as just more rioting in the street?'. He was roundly cheered because the class conscious section of the students is totally opposed to the substitutionist violence used by certain kinds of anarchists, which is so easily manipulated by the state.
These events show very sharply the line that separates the methods of struggle of the working class, and the 'classic' methods of anarchism, 'direct action' by irresponsible minorities. Those anarchists who see themselves as partisans of collective struggle and organisation really have to reflect on this. I suggest reading what Rosa Luxemburg wrote in the Mass Strike that the 1905 struggles (which gave rise to the first soviets) revealed the historical bankruptcy of 'anarcho-communism' which was unable to offer anything more than this kind of falsely radical minority violence which is unreleated to the real needs of the struggle (and which has nothing to do with the authentic class violence of the proletariat).
And Baboon is perfectly right about anti-fascism. This is is a political question not an empirical one. Anti-fascism is clearly a diversion from the class struggle, a barrier against it, not something you can just tack on to it. Here again there's no room for ambiguity.
We agree about the need to provide more information about the assemblies. The comrade I spoke to is writing something now and it will be sent to you soon.
Mar 18 2006 23:37
#15
I think Revol has said it all but a few more points.
Why haven't you told him about our blog, if he can't find any info?
Out of interest where did you hear about this stuff first? Be honest.
We have never mentioned anti-fascism, that would be in the analysis that you complain that we haven't done. We have reported that fascists have attacked demos.
If you hate anarchists why post on their boards, is it because pretending that there are more than three of you is no fun unless therare other people to annoy with it?
Stop slagging us off and do something.
I know people have read my article and have learnt something, it isn't much but it is something.
All your posts have done is prove that you're an irrelevance more interested in sectarianism and sniping than actually achieving anything and we knew that already.
Mar 19 2006 11:30
#16
I've got a lot to say on this, but not a lot of time to post about it at the moment.
Although the Censier stuff sounds interesting, I think the activities engaged in by high school pupils have been at least as good. The motorway blockade, the various station blockades by pupils and students, including running a toll free metro in one case. Both that and the networking efforts by Censier and other universities show that they've realised very quickly that to be effective they need to be operating outside the schools and universities, not just barricaded inside them or demonstrating out front.
Mar 19 2006 14:21
#17
Admin edit - discussion about anti-fascism, anarchism, and the ICC split to to here: http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8666
note from me personally - as far as I can tell everyone's guilty in this bunfight, although revol needs to cut out the personal abuse, please.
If you posted something great in the thread that's split which is relevant to this one - please paste it back into here. There's some constructive discussion going on in between the abuse which it'd be a shame to lose - especially while it's all still going on.
I haven't got time to do a better tidy up so hope this is ok!
edit: and sorry for the delay - had to call a plumber!
Mar 19 2006 17:40
#18
Alf wrote:
We agree about the need to provide more information about the assemblies. The comrade I spoke to is writing something now and it will be sent to you soon.
We look forward to seeing it.
Mar 19 2006 19:02
#19
I think this thread shows the difficulty at the moment of trying to make a clear distinction between a political discussion 'on the meaning of the revolt' and 'mere reportage'.
The blog and other forms of reportage is political. It ceratainly has an educative effect showing what a real mass revolt looks like in practice, from mass assemblies and occupations, mass manifestations, riots and barricades and now hopefully strikes. This is practically educating a new generation in France and more vicariously, a minority watching and studying the events from this side of the channel.
It shows us how people learn through struggle and through practice. It demonstrates how mass rebellions can generate an escalating dialectic of theory and practice.
That is a great political lesson - that unfortunately has been unlearned on this side of the channel. It re-teaches us in the UK some basic things - like the most exciting and potent direct action is not the pre-planned technisised lock on's by our substitutionalist eco-warrior 'NVDA' tradition - but by 'ordinary' people in mass action. Thus a new generation of 'activists' in the UK might learn to engage in mass agitation on basic issues, rather than train themselves in the clandestine elitist technicalities of the British professional direct-actionist. (A basic, boring and quite minor point here, but worth making).
This argument about what real direct action is has implications for what sort of organisiation revolutionaries form - an agitational one, suited to intervene in the debates and actions of the mass struggle, or a clandestine clique, suited to substitution. ( OF course, here in the UK we have such substitutionalist traditions precisiely because of the defeat and absence of mass direct action)!
Of course, the 'meaning' of the revolt might look different in history, and depends what happens next. It will also only be possible to get a full picture of what has an already just happened over a period of months...that will make a usefull research project for someone. I'm sure.
But which meaning do you want? How does it compare with the past, with 68? What does it mean for the future? What it means for us now? They key question here I'm sure is 'Can it happen here?'.
Thats a good question. 1968 in France was part of a global rebellion. It had a smaller, but significant impact here in the UK, with a few dozen important student occupations, which fed into the anti-war movement and gave a few more thousand activists to the revolutionary tradition. Thats not to be sniffed at.
I see no reason why the recent Sussex occupation cant be seen as a brief harbinger and emulated in a few other unis! Especially in the context of the AUT / Natfhe assessment boycott. Then there is the forthcoming bureaucratic one day mass strike over pensions. Won't be like France, but it will be a step upwards in the class struggle here. And the war drags on. Whilst at the moment it may not be provoking more than the routine passive mass 'stop the war' marches, one should not underestimate the corrosive effect it is having on peoples belief in the system.
And the hold the labour party has continues to shatter, as the Tessa Jowl farce exposes to everyone how obscenely rich and corrupt the 'labour' leaders are, and now with the Education Bill, we have Blairism openly leaning on the Tory party for support. All this has its effect, at the moment in a drip-drip kind of way. But its all ingredients into the pot. Something good could happen here, who knows?
But it's broadest meaning is as a confirmation that the classic patterns of mass class struggle still exist in 'advanced' so-called 'post-industrial' capitalism. And this has implications for what kind of revolutionaries we could/should be and how we should organise ourselves.
Mar 19 2006 21:01
#20
John. wrote:
We look forward to seeing it.
OK, here it is...
Notes from the students’ struggles in France
http://en.internationalism.org/node/1729
It's rather long to post up here, so the main points are:
1. The ICC is involved in a 'student movement' for two reasons,
- The students who are protesting are not 'the elite' but the children of the working class. They are pre-proletarians.
- The CPE is an economic attack on the WHOLE working class.
2. Unity of the generations. The gap between the generations that was present in May 1968 is not in existence today. All three generations are 'hand-in-hand'.
3. There is an extraordinary degree of organisation. Delegations are mandated and revocable. Presidiums of the AGs are elected at the beginning of each session. Votes are taken by open show of hands.
4. The AGs have a healthy instinct. The general assemblies are 'sovereign' and have fought off attempts by the Trotskyists to recuperate them.
5. The main barrier to the extension of the struggle to the wider working class is the stone-walling of the trade unions. The students have sought to overcome this by leafleting and discussing at the Metro stations. The unions are a major threat to the success of the movement.
6. Violence and the role of the media has become a central question. The bourgeois media are seeking to discredit the movement by focussing on the violence perpetrated by 'hotheads' outside of the control of the AGs.
ICC wrote:
From this, we can draw one clear conclusion. The French media who have tried to discredit the movement in the eyes of the working class, have now understood that they risk discrediting only themselves in the eyes of the population which knows what is really happening, and especially in the eyes of workers who are demonstrating themselves, or whose children are demonstrating, by lying too openly.
We've also produced a supplement to our French paper, which we're translating. It should be ready in a day or two. For those who can read French here's the link:
Hello to the new generations of the working class
http://fr.internationalism.org/RI366_supplement2.htm
Finally, good post from Barry Kade, which deserves a reply. I'm gasping for a cuppa first though.
Beltov.
Mar 19 2006 21:25
#21
whoop whoop for that unbelievably obvious analysis.
thank fuck we have the pompous ICC to enlighten us. 
Mar 19 2006 22:09
#22
revol68 wrote:
whoop whoop for that unbelievably obvious analysis.thank fuck we have the pompous ICC to enlighten us.
Any need mate?
It's hardly anything that hasn't been said already, but is it really necessary to launch into more abuse and factional bickering?
Mar 19 2006 22:11
#23
madashell wrote:
revol68 wrote:
whoop whoop for that unbelievably obvious analysis.thank fuck we have the pompous ICC to enlighten us.
Any need mate?
It's hardly anything that hasn't been said already, but is it really necessary to launch into more abuse and factional bickering?
well considering the ICC's sneaky and underhand behaviour on these boards I really think it is called for.
they invent false arguments so they can put forward their reified Bordigan bullshit as something interesting. Look at the lies they made up about the coverage, apparently reporting on the fact some numpty fascists had attacked the protesters gets painted as a lurch to bourgeois anti fascism. then again for the ICC if reality don't match your theory just lie.
Mar 19 2006 22:14
#24
Beltov wrote:
2. Unity of the generations. The gap between the generations that was present in May 1968 is not in existence today. All three generations are 'hand-in-hand'.
http://libcom.org/blog/three-generations-walked-hand-in-hand-today/03/18/2006
I like to see you're so well informed.
I think there is an element of wishfu thinking, while there are huge numbers of protesters and they are from a wide age/class range their unity is not assured and workers are probably likely to be the first to leave the struggle.
Quote:
3. There is an extraordinary degree of organisation. Delegations are mandated and revocable. Presidiums of the AGs are elected at the beginning of each session. Votes are taken by open show of hands.
I like your optimism
Quote:
5. The main barrier to the extension of the struggle to the wider working class is the stone-walling of the trade unions. The students have sought to overcome this by leafleting and discussing at the Metro stations. The unions are a major threat to the success of the movement.
Definitely, although they are being very militant at the moment. They have almost as much invested in this as the government now. This is largely due to independent action by workers, but bear in mind that the unions can't afford to lose members, they won't pull out if they think it will harm them.
Quote:
6. Violence and the role of the media has become a central question. The bourgeois media are seeking to discredit the movement by focussing on the violence perpetrated by 'hotheads' outside of the control of the AGs.
It is also being provoked and stage-managed, read our account of the fighting in the place de la sorbonne.
ICC wrote:
From this, we can draw one clear conclusion. The French media who have tried to discredit the movement in the eyes of the working class, have now understood that they risk discrediting only themselves in the eyes of the population which knows what is really happening, and especially in the eyes of workers who are demonstrating themselves, or whose children are demonstrating, by lying too openly.
The working class is not homogenous and I must point out that this is far less unusual for the French than for us and there is a very strong right-wing constituency who will vote for Chirac Sarkozy et al and wont go out on the streets.
Mar 19 2006 22:35
#25
revol68 wrote:
well considering the ICC's sneaky and underhand behaviour on these boards I really think it is called for.they invent false arguments so they can put forward their reified Bordigan bullshit as something interesting. Look at the lies they made up about the coverage, apparently reporting on the fact some numpty fascists had attacked the protesters gets painted as a lurch to bourgeois anti fascism. then again for the ICC if reality don't match your theory just lie.
Yeah, the ICC members who were saying that on the other thread were talking bollocks, but is there any need to carry it on on another thread altogether? It just strikes me as a bit of a waste of time and energy that could be spent debating the real issues at hand here, rather than just how wanky the ICC are capable of being when they really try.
Mar 19 2006 23:01
#26
Jef Costello wrote:
I think there is an element of wishfu thinking, while there are huge numbers of protesters and they are from a wide age/class range their unity is not assured and workers are probably likely to be the first to leave the struggle.
I wonder why you say this? I would've thought the French workers realise that this law is probably just the beginning - starts at 26, then moves up to 30, 40, 65... Not to mention if it goes through people will get sacked at 26 and replaced with younger ones...
Mar 19 2006 23:03
#27
John. wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
I think there is an element of wishfu thinking, while there are huge numbers of protesters and they are from a wide age/class range their unity is not assured and workers are probably likely to be the first to leave the struggle.I wonder why you say this? I would've thought the French workers realise that this law is probably just the beginning - starts at 26, then moves up to 30, 40, 65... Not to mention if it goes through people will get sacked at 26 and replaced with younger ones...
i'd say that workers over 26 are well aware they will be fucked by this act. I mean why would an employer hire someone at 30 when they can just get a bright young thing whose going to be walking on egg shells for atleast 2 years?
Mar 19 2006 23:07
#28
revol68 wrote:
John. wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
I think there is an element of wishfu thinking, while there are huge numbers of protesters and they are from a wide age/class range their unity is not assured and workers are probably likely to be the first to leave the struggle.I wonder why you say this? I would've thought the French workers realise that this law is probably just the beginning - starts at 26, then moves up to 30, 40, 65... Not to mention if it goes through people will get sacked at 26 and replaced with younger ones...
i'd say that workers over 26 are well aware they will be fucked by this act. I mean why would an employer hire someone at 30 when they can just get a bright young thing whose going to be walking on egg shells for atleast 2 years?
Its very hard to get sacked in France. Which is what the CPE/CNE is aimed at changing.
My fear is that those who are protected will abandon the next generation.
The CPE is designed to allow easy replacement of staff. You can't easily sack a 30 year-old to replace them with a younger worker. You can ensure that the next generation of workers do not have the same security.
It happened here with civil service pensions.
Mar 19 2006 23:10
#29
Jef Costello wrote:
revol68 wrote:
John. wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
I think there is an element of wishfu thinking, while there are huge numbers of protesters and they are from a wide age/class range their unity is not assured and workers are probably likely to be the first to leave the struggle.I wonder why you say this? I would've thought the French workers realise that this law is probably just the beginning - starts at 26, then moves up to 30, 40, 65... Not to mention if it goes through people will get sacked at 26 and replaced with younger ones...
i'd say that workers over 26 are well aware they will be fucked by this act. I mean why would an employer hire someone at 30 when they can just get a bright young thing whose going to be walking on egg shells for atleast 2 years?
Its very hard to get sacked in France. Which is what the CPE/CNE is aimed at changing.
My fear is that those who are protected will abandon the next generation.
The CPE is designed to allow easy replacement of staff. You can't easily sack a 30 year-old to replace them with a younger worker. You can ensure that the next generation of workers do not have the same security.
It happened here with civil service pensions.
It might be hard to get sacked in France but it isn't so hard to get laid off.
And honestly can we stop talking as if everyone over 26 in France is rocking out in heavily unionised civil service posts.
Mar 19 2006 23:12
#30
Jef Costello wrote:
Its very hard to get sacked in France. Which is what the CPE/CNE is aimed at changing.My fear is that those who are protected will abandon the next generation.
The CPE is designed to allow easy replacement of staff. You can't easily sack a 30 year-old to replace them with a younger worker. You can ensure that the next generation of workers do not have the same security.
What about when they up the age limit? I don't think they'll be that stupid. 26 is totally arbitrary. Even American workers - hardly reknowned as the most class conscious - refused a similar measure to create a two-tier workforce in the NYC transit strike.
And it's not just sackings, if businesses get less competitive they'll go under.
The way I see it, the law would make young people more exploitable. If they don't have job security then there is more fear in standing up to management. I believe most people on the left and right recognize this. The right would say we can reduce wages and benefits this way and therefore, businesses can afford to hire more unemployed people. Perhaps, this is true, I dunno. But they definitely will be more like wage slaves. And personally, what's so horrible about unemployment if there is a basic minimum of social programs that you can fall back on?
Also, this law will likely affect over 26 year old workers as well.
Why hire a middle aged person when you can hire a 24 year old with much fewer labor rights? The same principle can be seen with immigrants without papers, prison laborers, welfare-to-work programs. When you create a section of of the labor force that has fewer rights or no rights, it can end up affecting the more privileged layer of the working class as well.