Once more on the failed transit system fare strike in San Francisco in 2005

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thugarchist's picture
thugarchist
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Jun 12 2007 21:08

I have to give Keating some credit in the way he tricks otherwise rational people into debating his insanity.

Kevin Keating
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Jun 12 2007 21:41

Maybe you should try to find something worthwhile to say for a change.

Kevin Keating
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Jun 12 2007 21:51

Do the NEFAC retards ever have anything worthwhile to say? On any thread?

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thugarchist
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Jun 12 2007 22:01

My main goal in life is to bring pompous intellectuals down to my level.

Chalk up another success for this retard.

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daniel
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Jun 12 2007 22:33
thugarchist wrote:
I have to give Keating some credit in the way he tricks otherwise rational people into debating his insanity.

neutral

This is truly, truly bizarre. I can't figure which is wierder tho - this Kevin Keating bloke or people bothering to spend so much time on him. What's with the Yuppie-Eradication stuff? seems kinda funny. somebody made the allegation that Mr Keating here comes from a posh background. Like a DC lawyer or something. I wouldn't want to judge somebody until proven guilty but that'd be funny as hell if it's true. grin i mean Kropotkin, Bakunin, Marx, etc. etc. and all those other ex-aristo/middle class lot were grand, but they didn't go around yelling about Yuppie Eradication! Whatever.

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Tacks
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Jun 12 2007 22:49

i've said it before and i'll say it again: lol america.

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MJ
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Jun 12 2007 22:59
daniel wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
I have to give Keating some credit in the way he tricks otherwise rational people into debating his insanity.

neutral

This is truly, truly bizarre. I can't figure which is wierder tho - this Kevin Keating bloke or people bothering to spend so much time on him. What's with the Yuppie-Eradication stuff? seems kinda funny. somebody made the allegation that Mr Keating here comes from a posh background. Like a DC lawyer or something. I wouldn't want to judge somebody until proven guilty but that'd be funny as hell if it's true. grin i mean Kropotkin, Bakunin, Marx, etc. etc. and all those other ex-aristo/middle class lot were grand, but they didn't go around yelling about Yuppie Eradication! Whatever.

Well I don't think the guy who posts here is actually Kevin Keating, but according to Keating's autobiography he grew up in a "bourgeois" family in suburban northern Virginia.

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Jun 12 2007 23:28
Tacks wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again: lol america.

Class War Federation

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Jun 12 2007 23:39

KK:

Quote:
The "community organizations" syndicalistcat makes cooing noises over are essentially social-worker types and wannabe appointed and/or elected officials on the atrophied left elbow of San Francisco's Burton-Brown Democratic Party political machine.

actually not. St. Peters is a radical tenant organization. It has a membership of working class Latinos, an elected executive committee, and a staff collective who do organizing work. the two women i work with in that organization have radical values. the day laborers is an organization of people who can't vote. a couple of the active members are Zapatistas.

KK is confusing these groups with the leaders of Coalition for Transit Justice, particularly the staffers for Tenderloin Neighborhood Housing Clinic, who fit somewhat KK's description, and who were opposed to CTJ endorsing the fare strike. It was due to his disgust with them that Marc Norton quit CTJ and got involved with Muni Fare Strike.
CTJ, which also included a number of Green Party activists, limited its efforts to lobbying.

in general what KK's comments illustrate is his unwillingness to relate to other activists except by insulting them if they don't buy his alienated outlook.

KK's remarks generally confuse authentic mass organizations with political parties. That's because, when you get right down to it, KK doesn't really take seriously the idea of working class self-emancipation, as something organized by the mass of working people themselves.

Quote:
Any "mass organization" of working people under the present-day circumstances in the US is, one, not going to be a mass organziation; many people might be moved to ride the bus without paying, but very few are going to come to any meetings to help get it going. And, two, a completely atomized contemporary proletariat, with no culture of its own outside of the culture of commodity relations and the totalitarian domination of the propaganda of commodities is just going to be about petitioning the capitalist state to be more responsive to our needs.

here we see KK's ultimate pessimism, and his inability to understand the relationship between self-activity and change of consciousness. How does the proletariat overcome its atomization except through organization? through collective struggle -- and to be authentically collective requires mass organizattion -- people can develop some collective power and thus seeing that they have this power, begin to move from the "normal" pattern of individualist behavior limited to individual solutions towards the use of collective power for collective struggle. people will not believe that they have the power to contest things as usual from clever tracts wheatpasted to walls but only from their own experience of collective action and collective decision-making with others.

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Jun 12 2007 23:51
syndicalistcat wrote:
It has a membership of

Ah! See? Right there! It's part of the MACHINE, man!

Kevin Keating
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Jun 13 2007 02:59

yeah, right, syndicalistcat.

Forward to workers self-management of capitalist social relations!

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Jun 13 2007 03:42
thugarchist wrote:
Tacks wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again: lol america.

Class War Federation

drat angry

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jun 13 2007 16:16
Kevin Keating wrote:
Do the NEFAC retards ever have anything worthwhile to say? On any thread?

Don't know about the others, but I got nothin. I just like reading your nutso rants (maybe like isn't the right word... more like a morbid fascination). Its like 'outsider art' for lefties. Keep 'em coming!

Kevin Keating
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Jun 13 2007 16:47

Unlike syndicalistcat, I see the need for a qualitatively different type of resonse to life under capitalism than what exists in the United States right now. If the "activist organizations" that he doffs his cap to were already doing this, then it wouldn't be necessary to attempt to initiate anything new -- that's not so difficult to grasp, now, is it? That's almost tautalogical, its so totally fucking obvious.

Regardless of what he writes about events in Spain 80 years ago that are never going to happen in the same way again, when push comes to shove, syndicalistcat is an "activist" like all those other unimaginative types out there, haplessly and directionlessly treading water on the left-liberal protesters' fringe of conventional mainstream politics. His type of politics cannot lead to anything new -- it cannot break with the dismal left-liberal reality that already exists, and that isn't going to make a difference in the fight for a different way of life.

The entire point of attempting to get together a self-reduction effort around San Francisco's Muni, as I see it, was, and is, to help bring into being a different type of response to life under the dictatorship of the market from anything that exists in this society right now. This doesn't happen by calling into existence some "mass riders organization" which, if it was anything more than:

1. another pathetic citizen's lobby at City Hall,

2. or a field for leftist hustlers to hunt cannon-fodder in, COULD ONLY COME INTO EXISTENCE IN THE AFTERMATH OF A SUCCESSFUL MASS ACTION -- NOT BEFORE A SUCCESSFUL MASS ACTION. Success in these terms meaning some kind of city-wide movement that was widespread enough to actual defeat the austerity measures on Muni, and that would have had to spread with some lagre degree of spontanaity; this sort of thing cannot be "organized."

Even then, if some mass riders organization sprang up after a successful mass action, the tendency would be for it to de-evolve backwards into being an impediment to a renewed radical effort. But anyone who still calls themselves a syndicalist in the early 21st century is probably too politically primitive to grasp the sophisticated understanding of these dynamics the way the German and Dutch left communists did, with regard to their critique of social democratic parties and unions. What the left communists said about social democracy applies to any mass organization outside of the actual moment of a mass struggle. I doubt that syndicalistcat will grasp this. But, then he still thinks we'll use money after the revolution, so why shouldn't he be clueless about everything else as well.

Syndicalistcat has a life-long track record of never successfully communicating anything to anybody, and never even attempting to help jump-start anything new in this part of the world. So his analysis is a lot of Monday-mornig quarterbacking, and an expression of a supperficially radical and wholly historically outdated politics that, when push comes to shove, will always involve passively tailing after an agenda that has been set for syndicalist-types by fellow leftists who are more decisive and more capable of initiating something than any self-styled syndicalists that I have ever encountered in North America. In his own words some 20+ years ago, "I'm a syndicalist, not a communist."

As for me, I'm a communist, not an anachro-syndicalist.

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Jun 13 2007 16:52
Tacks wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
Tacks wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again: lol america.

Class War Federation

drat angry

That shits like an ace up my sleeve baby.

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MJ
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Jun 13 2007 16:58
Quote:
As for me, I'm a communist, not an anachro-syndicalist.

I'm a little disappointed to see you've backed down from your full epithet, "anachro-swindicalist." Losing your edge dude.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 13 2007 17:40
thugarchist wrote:
Tacks wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
Tacks wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again: lol america.

Class War Federation

drat angry

That shits like an ace up my sleeve baby.

who's going to make the top trumps cards then?

petey
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Jun 13 2007 17:45
thugarchist wrote:
That shits like an ace up my sleeve baby.

i've never heard that phrase before.

thugarchist's picture
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Jun 13 2007 17:55
newyawka wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
That shits like an ace up my sleeve baby.

i've never heard that phrase before.

Maybe I've been in vegas too long. I'm moving to seattle so I'll come up with some sort of granola or coffee references in the future.

petey
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Jun 13 2007 18:20

it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a phrase including shitting, caffeine, and granola.
like, "that shits like a granola bar washed down with coffee."

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Jun 13 2007 18:26
newyawka wrote:
it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a phrase including shitting, caffeine, and granola.
like, "that shits like a granola bar washed down with coffee."

You should not be in charge of slogans during the revolution.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 13 2007 18:30
Joseph K. wrote:
who's going to make the top trumps cards then?

me.


violence ... 9

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 13 2007 18:31

haha violence 10! i win

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 13 2007 18:34

ok ...


body odour ... 9

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 13 2007 18:34

you got me ... 2

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Jun 13 2007 18:46

leftcommieboy:

Quote:
Syndicalistcat has a life-long track record of never successfully communicating anything to anybody, and never even attempting to help jump-start anything new in this part of the world.

This is psychological projection. " life-long track record of never successfully communicating anything to anybody" is actually a good description of him.

Unlike Kevin, I've actually helped build a few mass organizations, in one case a grassroots union with 350 members at its height. The community land trust I'm working on now has about 100 members, and has organized a few buildings. I helped found Workers Solidarity Alliance which has had a membership of 20 to 50 over the years, and has survived together for 23 years. I can't say I've been hugely successful, but far more so than leftcommieboy who has nothing to show except for a few posters.

Kevin doesn't understand how organizational strength is a factor in developing class consciousness, but this is a failure of the "ultra-left" in general.

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Jun 13 2007 19:40

KK fails to understand how the working class has a contradictory consciousness. He can't really explain the conservatism in actual behavior of the working class. He sees the working class as at all times ready for a mass insurection against the system. But what KK's ideas can't explain is, Why does capitalism survive, decade after decade? What does he see as the point to this socalled "self-reduction" campaign? In what way will this affect mass consciousness? You'll look in vain for answers to these fundamental questions in KK's writings.

KK especially doesn't understand how conservatism derives from a sense of powerlessness. if you don't believe in the likelihood of collective solidarity as a means to getting what you want, you're going to look to individual solutions. why would the working class in the USA believe in its ability to get rid of capitalism? in fact the idea that we could get rid of it is not exactly widespread. why not? people will only develop a sense of the possibility of the working class being able to change things from seeing collective action being actually deployed. but it's collective only to the degree the decision-making is also collective. believing that you and other people around you have the power to run things is developed through participating in collective decision-making. KK tends to see collective action as something more like a riot. but a riot can be composed of isolated individuals merely coming together opportunistically, as in the looting of stores in L.A. in 1992, which is not the same thing as collectively organized struggle.

these criticisms here don't apply only to KK but also to many on the "ultra-left" in general.

Kevin Keating
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Jun 13 2007 20:49

Unlike syndicalistcat, I

1. organized the biggest ongoing rent strike in Berkeley from the end of 1980 to roughly May 1981, among the tenants of a landlord named Reza Valiyee. This was when I was a twenty-year old boy, at the end of living on the street for a year,

2. and when I was 18 -- well, I must confess, almost 19 -- back in 1979, I set up a union meeting that resulted in an organized crime-connected union, Oakland's Local 2 of the Cooks and Bartenders Union, AFL-CIO, getting kicked out of the food service division of UC Berkeley's International House, and replaced by a slightly less repugnant capitalist labor brokerage, AFSCME.

At that time I had the sort of illusions then that are found among the NEFAC weenies who post on this thread -- but I was an 18 year old boy then, and all you would find in Berkeley in those days at the end of the 70's was New Left and Old Left hogwash -- shitloads of New left hogwash, in fact. I hadn't encountered authentic rev. perspectives like the German and Dutch left, the Situationists, the pamphlet by Munis titled, Unions Against Revolution, stuff by Gilles Dauve, the Arshinov book about the Makhnovists, etc.

Since then, in the 1980's and 1990's I repeatedly gave out various drafts of a leaflet version of my article 'Harass the Brass' to sailors and marines during Fleet Week in San Francisco:

http://www.infoshop.org/myep/love3.html

Now, anachro-syndicalist cat is probably not too impressed by this article.

But apparently the US Department of Defense and the Marine Corps are. According to a web site called Gunny G's, run by a former Marine lifer and gunnery seargent, dedicated to the history of the Marines, this article was circulated as part of a daily internal e-mail bulletin from the DoD/Marine Corps in early 2004.

There's other stuff I've written and published, aimed not at subculturalists, or leftists, or guys trapped in a time machine that only operates in reverse; I don't need to go into detail about that here, either.

And claiming I just hung a few posters on some walls, and that this communicated nothing to anybody, is hogwash as well. Why did the bourgeois media give that action so much attention? You are claiming, apparently, that they paid attention, and that nobody in our neighborhood did -- that's what you're saying now?Are you claiming that those posters were universally ignored by everybody in the Mission?

Your 'land trust' stuff is like your claim that "after the revolution" a post-revoltuonary society is still going to have to use money -- it is Proudhonist nonsense, an attempt to shop your way to a less exploitative social order. It has nothing to do with any mass collective fight for the negation of the market and the democratic state, which is necessarily confrontational -- and also necessarily not about cooperating with non-confrontation groups.

Helping to found a group that hasn't really gotten anyhting togther other than the simple perpetuation of its own existence clearly hasn't had much to do with large scale confrontation, now, has it?

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Jun 13 2007 20:58
Kevin Keating wrote:
Unlike syndicalistcat, I see the need for a qualitatively different type of resonse to life under capitalism than what exists in the United States right now. If the "activist organizations" that he doffs his cap to were already doing this, then it wouldn't be necessary to attempt to initiate anything new -- that's not so difficult to grasp, now, is it? That's almost tautalogical, its so totally fucking obvious.

Regardless of what he writes about events in Spain 80 years ago that are never going to happen in the same way again, when push comes to shove, syndicalistcat is an "activist" like all those other unimaginative types out there, haplessly and directionlessly treading water on the left-liberal protesters' fringe of conventional mainstream politics. His type of politics cannot lead to anything new -- it cannot break with the dismal left-liberal reality that already exists, and that isn't going to make a difference in the fight for a different way of life.

The entire point of attempting to get together a self-reduction effort around San Francisco's Muni, as I see it, was, and is, to help bring into being a different type of response to life under the dictatorship of the market from anything that exists in this society right now. This doesn't happen by calling into existence some "mass riders organization" which, if it was anything more than:

1. another pathetic citizen's lobby at City Hall,

2. or a field for leftist hustlers to hunt cannon-fodder in, COULD ONLY COME INTO EXISTENCE IN THE AFTERMATH OF A SUCCESSFUL MASS ACTION -- NOT BEFORE A SUCCESSFUL MASS ACTION. Success in these terms meaning some kind of city-wide movement that was widespread enough to actual defeat the austerity measures on Muni, and that would have had to spread with some lagre degree of spontanaity; this sort of thing cannot be "organized."

Even then, if some mass riders organization sprang up after a successful mass action, the tendency would be for it to de-evolve backwards into being an impediment to a renewed radical effort. But anyone who still calls themselves a syndicalist in the early 21st century is probably too politically primitive to grasp the sophisticated understanding of these dynamics the way the German and Dutch left communists did, with regard to their critique of social democratic parties and unions. What the left communists said about social democracy applies to any mass organization outside of the actual moment of a mass struggle. I doubt that syndicalistcat will grasp this. But, then he still thinks we'll use money after the revolution, so why shouldn't he be clueless about everything else as well.

Syndicalistcat has a life-long track record of never successfully communicating anything to anybody, and never even attempting to help jump-start anything new in this part of the world. So his analysis is a lot of Monday-mornig quarterbacking, and an expression of a supperficially radical and wholly historically outdated politics that, when push comes to shove, will always involve passively tailing after an agenda that has been set for syndicalist-types by fellow leftists who are more decisive and more capable of initiating something than any self-styled syndicalists that I have ever encountered in North America. In his own words some 20+ years ago, "I'm a syndicalist, not a communist."

As for me, I'm a communist, not an anachro-syndicalist.

Fucking nutter more like.

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Jun 13 2007 21:01

"Kevin,"

Why hasn't the mass collective fight for the negation of the market and the democratic state already happened?

Why do working class people let themselves be fooled by leftists?

Why should "they" be moved by your posters?