Once more on the failed transit system fare strike in San Francisco in 2005

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MJ
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Jun 13 2007 21:06
Kevin Keatings wrote:
to grasp the sophisticated understanding of these dynamics the way the German and Dutch left communists did, with regard to their critique of social democratic parties and unions
Kevin Keatings wrote:
authentic rev. perspectives like the German and Dutch left, the Situationists, the pamphlet by Munis titled, Unions Against Revolution, stuff by Gilles Dauve, the Arshinov book about the Makhnovists, etc.

...

Kevin Keatings wrote:
guys trapped in a time machine that only operates in reverse

grin

Kevin Keating
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Jun 13 2007 21:17

MJ asks:

""Kevin,"

Why hasn't the mass collective fight for the negation of the market and the democratic state already happened?

Why do working class people let themselves be fooled by leftists?"

If I had the answer to these, I wouldn't be making posts on this thread, I'd be out trying to do something about it.

I've repeatedly said this elsewhere; I am not claiming that I have got all the answers. I've contributed to some good efforts in the past, I relate to these experiences ina critical manner. It goes forward from there.

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MJ
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Jun 13 2007 21:25
Kevin wrote:
I've repeatedly said this elsewhere; I am not claiming that I have got all the answers. I've contributed to some good efforts in the past, I relate to these experiences ina critical manner. It goes forward from there.

Now that's reasonable!

I liked your troops pamphlet.

Kevin Keating
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Jun 13 2007 21:52

Thanks.

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syndicalistcat
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Jun 13 2007 22:07

KK:

Quote:
I've repeatedly said this elsewhere; I am not claiming that I have got all the answers. I've contributed to some good efforts in the past, I relate to these experiences ina critical manner. It goes forward from there.

This is a very uncharacteristic statement by you, in my experience...and i've known you for over 20 years. You more often come off as arrogance personified.

if you concede you don't have all the answers, or even answers to some very basic questions, that should suggest to you that your easy insults directed against virtually every other activist tendency around here isn't founded on much.

You might consider why you are completely isolated.

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Jun 13 2007 22:12
MJ wrote:
Kevin wrote:
I've repeatedly said this elsewhere; I am not claiming that I have got all the answers. I've contributed to some good efforts in the past, I relate to these experiences ina critical manner. It goes forward from there.

Now that's reasonable!

I liked your troops pamphlet.

I hearby call for MJ's purge from NEFAC. Where's Oliver?

Kevin Keating
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Jun 13 2007 22:24

Quoting me here: "I've repeatedly said this elsewhere; I am not claiming that I have got all the answers. I've contributed to some good efforts in the past, I relate to these experiences ina critical manner. It goes forward from there."

In response, syndicalistcat posts:
"This is a very uncharacteristic statement by you, in my experience...and i've known you for over 20 years. You more often come off as arrogance personified..."

One, I've said the above numerous times. Maybe you just weren't listening.

And, two, I do think all the activist groups around here are, to put it mildly, barking up the wrong tree. That's not going to change by throwing a slightly different flavor of doggie biscuits at them.

My acknowledging that I don't have all the answers doesn't in turn bestow some kind of wholly unmerited revolutionary benediction on leftist protest ghetto nonsense.

My isolation around here is in part based on extremely major political differences, and highly antagonistic perspectives on how to communicate and on what to communicate. Also, you know as well as I do that the flake-factor or space-cadet factor in the San Francisco Bay Area is absolutely fucking sky-high; higher than it probably is in other parts of the world. Since the abysmal hippie-shit and New Left of the late 1960's and ealry 1970's, what passes for radical politics in this part of the world has also always drawn more than its share of bona fide loons and even predators to it; look at scumbags like Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver, and all those cult-like M-L nuts from the early 1970's. The most significant impact the left has had on the lives of working people around here, and that's mostly African-American working people, was Jonestown. The same stone-crazy factor applies to much of the so-called libertarian left in this part of the world as well.

Yeah, sure, maybe I haven't exactly been in the running for the Miss Congeniality Award, but dealing with this looney-tune milieu, year in, year out, decade in decade out, has been an extremely exasperating experience.

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Jun 13 2007 22:27
Kevin Keating wrote:

Yeah, sure, maybe I haven't exactly been in the running for the Miss Congeniality Award, but dealing with this looney-tune milieu, year in, year out, decade in decade out, has been an extremely exasperating experience.

Dude! you need to stop before I'm forced to like you.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jun 14 2007 00:21
thugarchist wrote:
MJ wrote:
Kevin wrote:
I've repeatedly said this elsewhere; I am not claiming that I have got all the answers. I've contributed to some good efforts in the past, I relate to these experiences ina critical manner. It goes forward from there.

Now that's reasonable!

I liked your troops pamphlet.

I hearby call for MJ's purge from NEFAC. Where's Oliver?

Seriously.

The unspoken NEFAC line on Kevin Keating is that he is a) silly, and b) to be ridiculed as such when he starts talking shit and getting too uppity.

Discipline comrade!

IDP
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Jun 14 2007 03:03

?

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OliverTwister
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Jun 14 2007 07:03

Well I have to say that I agree with KK's critique of Syndicalistcat's fetishism of "working-class mass organizations". Cat asks why workers haven't spontaneously rebelled; the question could be reversed and asked why ParEcon hasn't been set up by the multitude of mass organization representing the working class?

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Jun 14 2007 08:03
OliverTwister wrote:
Well I have to say that I agree with KK's critique of Syndicalistcat's fetishism of "working-class mass organizations". Cat asks why workers haven't spontaneously rebelled; the question could be reversed and asked why ParEcon hasn't been set up by the multitude of mass organization representing the working class?

Are you drunk?

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Jun 14 2007 15:39
Quote:
Well I have to say that I agree with KK's critique of Syndicalistcat's fetishism of "working-class mass organizations".

wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

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Jun 14 2007 15:41
syndicalistcat wrote:
Quote:
Well I have to say that I agree with KK's critique of Syndicalistcat's fetishism of "working-class mass organizations".

wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

Ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... don't let sanity get in anarchyism's way.

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Jun 14 2007 15:55
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wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

No he's well on his way to being a full fledged loony-toons ultraleft.

Just like in a year the dude who posts here as "daniel" is going to be an insurrectionist.

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Jun 14 2007 17:36
syndicalistcat wrote:
Quote:
Well I have to say that I agree with KK's critique of Syndicalistcat's fetishism of "working-class mass organizations".

wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

I could say the same to you...

Do syndicalists still have to take the Chartre d'Amiens as their program?

There may have been a time when it would be possible to think that the existing unions could simply take over society and we'd have socialism. I think that time is long past.

Anyways even in 1917 the Russian syndicalists weren't arguing that the (Bolshevik-led) trade unions should take over administration, they were arguing for the soviets to federate along industrial lines and take over everything.

How many mass organizations does the working class need before we can set up ParEcon?

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Jun 14 2007 17:39
MJ wrote:
Quote:
wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

No he's well on his way to being a full fledged loony-toons ultraleft.

Just like in a year the dude who posts here as "daniel" is going to be an insurrectionist.

That sounds like the timeframe for when all NEFACers will strategically infiltrate the NGO and union sector, and Phebus will convince everyone that abstention from elections should be re-thought...

Maybe they'll also put out a call to nationalize the natural resources of the US and Canada?

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Jun 14 2007 18:03

We're like ships passing each other in the night.

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daniel
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Jun 14 2007 18:08

oi! hand

My politics are quite consistent, I assure you, I just don't like labels. I still think the basic ideas of platformism (e.g. makhno and that lot) are sound. I still think NEFAC is great. No change there - I just politely disagree with you about national liberation. Comradely differences, eh? wink

I don't know where "insurrectionist" comes from, you must be thinking of somebody else...

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Jun 14 2007 18:37

Good to hear, I take it back then. I guess I'm just puzzled at the last round of your library contributions, including the Murder of Crows thing, and your statement that the militia movement is still growing. I've been meaning to post some related stuff to the library which you might be interested in despite the source... I'll keep you posted on that.

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Jun 14 2007 19:08
MJ wrote:
We're like ships passing each other in the night.

Forever dreaming of what might have been...

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jun 14 2007 19:10
OliverTwister wrote:
MJ wrote:
Quote:
wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

No he's well on his way to being a full fledged loony-toons ultraleft.

Just like in a year the dude who posts here as "daniel" is going to be an insurrectionist.

That sounds like the timeframe for when all NEFACers will strategically infiltrate the NGO and union sector, and Phebus will convince everyone that abstention from elections should be re-thought...

Maybe they'll also put out a call to nationalize the natural resources of the US and Canada?

What are you on about now?

petey
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Jun 14 2007 19:11
Quote:
Quote:
We're like ships passing each other in the night.

Forever dreaming of what might have been...

stop that right now

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Jun 14 2007 19:20
Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
OliverTwister wrote:
MJ wrote:
Quote:
wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

No he's well on his way to being a full fledged loony-toons ultraleft.

Just like in a year the dude who posts here as "daniel" is going to be an insurrectionist.

That sounds like the timeframe for when all NEFACers will strategically infiltrate the NGO and union sector, and Phebus will convince everyone that abstention from elections should be re-thought...

Maybe they'll also put out a call to nationalize the natural resources of the US and Canada?

What are you on about now?

You know. The international platformist line.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jun 14 2007 19:51
thugarchist wrote:
Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
OliverTwister wrote:
MJ wrote:
Quote:
wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

No he's well on his way to being a full fledged loony-toons ultraleft.

Just like in a year the dude who posts here as "daniel" is going to be an insurrectionist.

That sounds like the timeframe for when all NEFACers will strategically infiltrate the NGO and union sector, and Phebus will convince everyone that abstention from elections should be re-thought...

Maybe they'll also put out a call to nationalize the natural resources of the US and Canada?

What are you on about now?

You know. The international platformist line.

Right...

So, who wants to take bets on how long it'll take for Oliver to write his first ultra-left denuncication of the IWW?

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MJ
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Jun 14 2007 19:56

I'll go in for $10 on by Christmas or $20 on a year from today. I'd say more money but I wouldn't want him to bite his tongue for a year just to spite me. (Or release it in Esperanto only or something.)

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Jun 14 2007 20:10

oliver:

Quote:
I could say the same to you...

Do syndicalists still have to take the Chartre d'Amiens as their program?

There may have been a time when it would be possible to think that the existing unions could simply take over society and we'd have socialism. I think that time is long past.

Anyways even in 1917 the Russian syndicalists weren't arguing that the (Bolshevik-led) trade unions should take over administration, they were arguing for the soviets to federate along industrial lines and take over everything.

Now you're changing the topic of discussion. The organization of the factory committees, based on assemblies, which some syndicalists were supporting in the Russian revolution, were a form of workplace unionism, and surely a "working class mass organization." The Russian trade unions were a partlcularly centralized type of organization, with all power concentrated in its national committee, reflecting the fact they were for years basically appendages of the Menshevik party, tho by Oct 1917 the Bolsheviks had gained control of most of them.

Also, I wrote a major essay called "Unionism and Workers' Liberation" where i argued for new self-managed mass organizations, at least in situations where it makes strategic sense to organize them. Neither I nor WSA have ever said that reforming the AFL-CIO unions from within was the be-all and end-all of syndicalist practice.

Quote:
How many mass organizations does the working class need before we can set up ParEcon?

The same number it needs to emancipate itself from the class system and create a self-managed, classless society.

Kevin Keating
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Jun 14 2007 20:31

A "self-managed classless society" based on money and market relations, right, syndicalistcat?

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syndicalistcat
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Jun 14 2007 20:37

no market. i'm a market abolitionist. i advocate a planned economy.

no money-capital. money-capital presupposes factor markets in which to buy labor-power and other factors of production.

any viable economy requires a social accounting unit in which to compare possible benefits that people might want produced, and to compare costs. there can't be an effective system of social production without a way to measure social opportunity costs.

i also believe that, coming out of capitalism, it will be necessary to require work effort to earn consumption entitlement, to have an adequate motivation to do work effort for others, and avoid anti-social free-riding.

Kevin Keating
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Jun 14 2007 21:08

Sure, there has to be some kind of planning for resource allocation -- but that doesn't mean money, or anything even vaguelly resembling money.

As for requiring "work effort," I am not at all sure about this.

For one thing, even a relatively non-revolutionary social critic like Lewis Mumford -- I think it was Mumford -- did a study back in the 1950's that ended with the conclusion that some overwhelming percentage -- like, more than 85% -- of the forms of toil engaged in in areas of the world where modern conditions of production prevail were totally unnecessary.

Another thing that gets factored out of your equation is the fact that for a free society to exist, the people in this society are going, in the course of the struggle to realize this society, including the first, rudimentary struggles under the present day social order, to have developed wholly different values from the ones that exist right now in this society.

My guess is that a majority of people will be willing to contribute some hours and some effort -- probably less that what we endure under the wages system -- to live in a society that is both complex and egalitarian, and where the planet isn't being rendered uninhabitable by market relations, and the ever-expanding planet-wide cancer of production for production's sake that we find under the commodity economy.

That also doesn't mean that it will all be instant effortlessness. Much or most of the inhabited areas of the earth are probably going to have been completely trashed by the time class society in its various forms has been toppled. There may be several generations of great effort to remedy this, or at least tread water and deal with it while the planet mends itself. That's not going to involve money, buying and selling, or work for wages.

It actually might be preferable to allow pathetic loser-asshole-types to benignly free-load instead of having some mechanism of coercion that will probably end up doing more social harm than good.