Once more on the failed transit system fare strike in San Francisco in 2005

...

Now that's reasonable!

I liked your troops pamphlet.

KK:

This is a very uncharacteristic statement by you, in my experience...and i've known you for over 20 years. You more often come off as arrogance personified.

if you concede you don't have all the answers, or even answers to some very basic questions, that should suggest to you that your easy insults directed against virtually every other activist tendency around here isn't founded on much.

You might consider why you are completely isolated.

I hearby call for MJ's purge from NEFAC. Where's Oliver?

Dude! you need to stop before I'm forced to like you.

Seriously.

The unspoken NEFAC line on Kevin Keating is that he is a) silly, and b) to be ridiculed as such when he starts talking shit and getting too uppity.

Discipline comrade!

?

Well I have to say that I agree with KK's critique of Syndicalistcat's fetishism of "working-class mass organizations". Cat asks why workers haven't spontaneously rebelled; the question could be reversed and asked why ParEcon hasn't been set up by the multitude of mass organization representing the working class?

Are you drunk?

wait, i thought you were a syndicalist...

Ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... don't let sanity get in anarchyism's way.

No he's well on his way to being a full fledged loony-toons ultraleft.

Just like in a year the dude who posts here as "daniel" is going to be an insurrectionist.

I could say the same to you...

Do syndicalists still have to take the Chartre d'Amiens as their program?

There may have been a time when it would be possible to think that the existing unions could simply take over society and we'd have socialism. I think that time is long past.

Anyways even in 1917 the Russian syndicalists weren't arguing that the (Bolshevik-led) trade unions should take over administration, they were arguing for the soviets to federate along industrial lines and take over everything.

How many mass organizations does the working class need before we can set up ParEcon?

That sounds like the timeframe for when all NEFACers will strategically infiltrate the NGO and union sector, and Phebus will convince everyone that abstention from elections should be re-thought...

Maybe they'll also put out a call to nationalize the natural resources of the US and Canada?

We're like ships passing each other in the night.

oi!

My politics are quite consistent, I assure you, I just don't like labels. I still think the basic ideas of platformism (e.g. makhno and that lot) are sound. I still think NEFAC is great. No change there - I just politely disagree with you about national liberation. Comradely differences, eh?

I don't know where "insurrectionist" comes from, you must be thinking of somebody else...

Good to hear, I take it back then. I guess I'm just puzzled at the last round of your library contributions, including the Murder of Crows thing, and your statement that the militia movement is still growing. I've been meaning to post some related stuff to the library which you might be interested in despite the source... I'll keep you posted on that.

Forever dreaming of what might have been...

What are you on about now?

stop that right now

You know. The international platformist line.

Right...

So, who wants to take bets on how long it'll take for Oliver to write his first ultra-left denuncication of the IWW?

I'll go in for $10 on by Christmas or $20 on a year from today. I'd say more money but I wouldn't want him to bite his tongue for a year just to spite me. (Or release it in Esperanto only or something.)

oliver:

Do syndicalists still have to take the Chartre d'Amiens as their program?

There may have been a time when it would be possible to think that the existing unions could simply take over society and we'd have socialism. I think that time is long past.

Anyways even in 1917 the Russian syndicalists weren't arguing that the (Bolshevik-led) trade unions should take over administration, they were arguing for the soviets to federate along industrial lines and take over everything.

Now you're changing the topic of discussion. The organization of the factory committees, based on assemblies, which some syndicalists were supporting in the Russian revolution, were a form of workplace unionism, and surely a "working class mass organization." The Russian trade unions were a partlcularly centralized type of organization, with all power concentrated in its national committee, reflecting the fact they were for years basically appendages of the Menshevik party, tho by Oct 1917 the Bolsheviks had gained control of most of them.

Also, I wrote a major essay called "Unionism and Workers' Liberation" where i argued for new self-managed mass organizations, at least in situations where it makes strategic sense to organize them. Neither I nor WSA have ever said that reforming the AFL-CIO unions from within was the be-all and end-all of syndicalist practice.

The same number it needs to emancipate itself from the class system and create a self-managed, classless society.

no market. i'm a market abolitionist. i advocate a planned economy.

no money-capital. money-capital presupposes factor markets in which to buy labor-power and other factors of production.

any viable economy requires a social accounting unit in which to compare possible benefits that people might want produced, and to compare costs. there can't be an effective system of social production without a way to measure social opportunity costs.

i also believe that, coming out of capitalism, it will be necessary to require work effort to earn consumption entitlement, to have an adequate motivation to do work effort for others, and avoid anti-social free-riding.