poststructural anarchism

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Mike Harman
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Aug 8 2005 10:58
trained_chimp wrote:

Dont you think that power is for a large part a social construct, which can be dissolved or negated using ridicule and parody? Isnt a large part of the power of the police, our belief in the power of the police? (with the obvious exception of the baton...smile)

Authority is socially determined, power isn't. The police manage to do a lot of things without resorting to open violence because we know that they'll resort to violence if we don't comply within certain parameters. Not believing in the power of the police doesn't stop them whacking you over the head (as you point out), nor shooting you 8 times at Stockwell tube station, nor arresting you (court case coming up didn't you say?), nor the rest of the criminal justice system incarcerating you depending on the politically and judicially determined penalties for whatever they get you for.

The legal limits placed on the police are being steadily eroded at faster rate than they've been for some time, so the balance of power is likely to change even more towards the State's favour in the near future. London may well have a permanent armed police presence of several hundred from now on, limits are increasingly being placed on protest, and new anti-terrorism legislation looks like it's targetted at political radicals as much as it is Islamists. If I was going to place bets on an all out fight between the current activists in this country and the police force, well let's just say you'd get long odds. Then they'd bring the army in. The only thing which can reduce the power of the state is an increase in the power of the working class.

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The power of the state comes not only from the objective things like guns and bombs, but also from subjective things like ideology and ritual. So perhaps attacking the states subjective power through parody could be very effective? I certainly think so.

clowns ridiculing the police, and their symbols and rituals certainly makes them uncomfortable!

You might be able to superficially, temporarily, show up the police during a set piece spectacular confrontation. But the subjective power of the state comes not so much from ideology and ritual, but from the fact that it manages to one degree or another most aspects of our day to day lives. The police, on the level of clowning at demos, are human individuals who you can make feel uncomfortable until they get bored and either leave you to it or twat you over the head. However that divorces them from the overall structures which govern human affairs, and in terms of challenging state power in general, the state is quite happy to have these set piece confrontations. They (subjectively) redirected the majority of the protestors into a mainstream, pro-state, pro-capitalist (even pro-neoliberal) campaign. I notice you didn't mention capitalism in your posts. Do you think capitalism will get embarrassed and run away?

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Im quite interested in the pros and cons of circa vs black block

CIRCA vs. Black Block is a false comparison - they're two sides of the same tactic - spectacular protests based around an activist timetable of summits and conferences.

Quote:

black block is class struggle and CIRCA post-structural - and that seems to be the line of comparison.

:)

Not on here it isn't.

marinebroadcast has questions I'd like to see you answer:

marinebroadcast wrote:
Is black block really class stuggle? What has this tactic done for the working classes? ...The clowns are not creating anything permanent, permanently reclaiming power.

If you think the most important aspect of the state to attack is the police, and think that their activity on protests shows them up, you also need to deal with their role outside policing demonstrations. To challenge their power how about dealing with anti-social behaviour in communities, try making crack dealers "uncomfortable". There's discussions running at the moment on how this could be achieved (although it's a very difficult thing to do for a number of reasons and even on the level of discussion it's hard to come up with good ideas).

The state's power lies in the reality that people leave all of these problems to the police - they provide a necessary service in present society no matter how much we dislike them, or how badly that service is performed. While people can be mugged, burgled, raped, stabbed and the only people who'll take action (if at all) are the police, their power remains as strong as ever, seeing a few clowns make fun of them on TV is negligible in this regard, if it can be said to have any positive effect at all. If you want to show them up as only repressing protest and backing up the state, then you need to reduce the need for them in our own communities as well.

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revol68
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Aug 8 2005 12:04

great post catch.

but in truth trained chimp or circa are hardly fair representations of post structuralism, they're just a bunch of muppets who have hastily tried to create an intellectual justification for looking silly.

I find the problem with post structuralists (more so it's pseudo intellectual defenders) is that they tend to have a shit understanding of marxism and hence think they are adding something new with their criticisms about it's euro phallic meta whiggish centricity or whatever other lexicon of shite is it fashion at the time.

As for Baudrillard well that cock, much like the situationists was always unable to grasp the self activity of the subject, nor how the spectacle or "simulcra" does not arise spontaneously nor is it all numbing but rather is somethng that is recreated every day by human labour and is ridden with frissures and fractures which contain it's negation.

To be honest the more critical theory i read the more i feel that the major issues are all ones raised either explicitly or implicity within various strands of marxism or anarchism.

Mitch
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Aug 8 2005 12:36

I don't know much about post structuralist ideas connected with anarchism, but I'm trying to remember why I always despised it - never took to it from the start, in literary, film and feminist theory.

Oh yes, in film theory it's dissecting down of a film into clinical bit with lots of very complicated words only a few elites could understand.... and a complete rejection of looking at cinema within social contexts.

In feminist theory - mostly french feminists such as Kristiva - again elitist bibble babble focus on the body (not the social) - a focus on dissecting language - rejecting any kind of class analysis and essentially rejecting different experiences of women depending on what class you are. (although some attention is paid to difference but in flowering incomprehensible language so you spend half an hour trying to work out what a sentence means, rather that thinking about the different experiences of women dependent on class, race, ethnicity and more.)

Literary theory - again dissecting language.

And labour history I've read a little of - and it is worrying I think the influence of post structuralism here, and in sociology - because again it's focusing on nit picking language - and seems to be attempting to deny the very existance of class, and different experiences dependent on class. For example that book by Gareth Stedman Jones 'Languages of Class'. This book seems to spend most of it's time ping ponging about the word Class and what it means - essentially to negate again it's existence.

How is it now burrowing into anarchism?? I know little about this, and would be interested?

Isn't it having an increasing influence in all kinds of disciplines - bit worrying possibly? Cloud cuckoo detached land from what I remember.

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Lazy Riser
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Aug 8 2005 12:38

Hi

Quote:
euro phallic meta whiggish

Revol, is it Ok if I use your chat up lines on my Mrs?

Love

Chris

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Volin
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Aug 8 2005 13:27
revol68 wrote:
they're just a bunch of muppets who have hastily tried to create an intellectual justification for looking silly.

kinda like you? *squints eyes*

marinebroadcast wrote:
I would prefer to be the change rather then satirse, isnt this more effective?

The Circa's actions are only one tactic, and ffs its only a bit of subversively-tinged fun it shouldn't be taken out of context and pitted against other more practical tactics. If you see less spectaculor forms of organisation that try to establish actual class strength as more important (as I do) then that's cool. If you dont want to take part in protesting, activism, "post-structuralist" mock-performance it doesn't really matter...some of us do and see no incompatibility in that approach. Likewise, trying to "be the change" sounds nice but what does that mean in practical terms?

trained_chimp
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Aug 8 2005 13:53
marinebroadcast wrote:
Is black block really class stuggle? What has this tactic done for the working classes? I am not be sarcy.

Parody can be quite unclear. I saw the video of the clowns chasing the pigs on indymedia, so i guess it can work sometimes. But in a lot of situations parody is related to privalege. I would prefer to be the change rather then satirse, isnt this more effective?

I mean, how long does a parody action last? The clowns are not creating anything permanent, permanently reclaiming power. It lasts as long as the action...I guess it can be a good tactic on actions though.

Black bloc tactics are class struggle depending on how you define what is apropriate class struggle action - sure i also feel that community action has the potential to be far and away more effective, but symbolic property damage when you claim to be raising the political consciousness of the working class seems to me to be an attempt at class struggle - whether it is effective or not is another question;

and it is definately not effective since the state and the right wing media always win the struggle to create 'truth' about such activity, since there is not an effective method of creating a counter-narrative.

As for Clowining and parody/satire - the history of such activity was always to ridicule authority and dissolve the subjective power of authority.

Obviously the objective power of authority is unchanged, but the perception of it can change and render it less powerful.

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Aug 8 2005 14:46
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As for Clowining and parody/satire - the history of such activity was always to ridicule authority and dissolve the subjective power of authority.

Obviously the objective power of authority is unchanged, but the perception of it can change and render it less powerful

yes but clowning itself is ripe only for parody, its pathetic and desperate appeals to zaniness are too obvious. It is Colin the zany guy from the Office. It is the hippies who reduce all to love because if they looked beyond their narrow world view they would realise that their "love" is just a black cancerous lump of denial. The christians who smile through it all, who laugh and clap when inside they are crying and their salvation is nothing more than a desperate attempt to wrap their existentialist angst and uncertainty into a nice managable package.

Clowning lacks the self awareness to be subversive, it just reeks of a bunch of art students patronising the "masses". The situationists often complained the their use of "pleasure" was reduced to a narrow erotic definition, the neccesity of all anti capitalists actions to be "festivals", "parties" or "comic" represents nothing more than the commodification of experiance into little brands. Everything doesn't have to be "fun".

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the button
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Aug 8 2005 14:48
Quote:

Obviously the objective power of authority is unchanged, but the perception of it can change and render it less powerful

Run that one past me again. confused

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Aug 8 2005 14:53

i think he means that taking the piss out of something can make people less likely to be afraid of it. Which is true, but the jokes on them cos the fact they can take the piss out of the police helps to maintain liberal bourgeois hegemony.

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Aug 8 2005 15:04
revol68 wrote:
Which is true, but the jokes on them cos the fact they can take the piss out of the police helps to maintain liberal bourgeois hegemony.

.... not unlike Zizek's notion of totalitarian laughter in that respect then.

Or the bit in The sublime object of ideology, where he argues that traditional accounts of ideology have been structured along the lines of "for they know not what they do." Taking into account such "postmodern" ( roll eyes ) phenomena as "ironic consumption" (liking shit 70s/80s TV, for instance), Zizek argues that ideology in late modernity is structured along the lines of, "They know exactly what they're doing, but still they do it."

All that "laughter is the best defence against totalitarianism" stuff pisses me right off, in fact. As you so rightly point out, just another trope of an exhausted & bankrupt liberalism.

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Aug 8 2005 15:10

yeah, though the only think i read of Zizek's was a chapter on Lenin, though he alluded to the imagery of socialism being detourned by capital and i supouse there was an implicit critique of "cultural critiques".

essentially i agree that capitalism ideology is nothing increasingly self referencial irony, and the only response has to be a deepening of such irony away from the networks of circulation and into the field of actual production. Whilst critique remains in the sphere of circulation it will only spawn superficial theories ala No Logo or taken to it's logical conclusion spiralling cynicism ala Baudrillard.

Im of course not seeking to draw a straight line between circulation and production but rather we need an approach that holds human self activity as it's ontology.

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Aug 8 2005 15:14
revol68 wrote:
yeah, though the only think i read of Zizek's was a chapter on Lenin, though he alluded to the imagery of socialism being detourned by capital and i supouse there was an implicit critique of "cultural critiques".

I would definitely recommend The sublime object of ideology and The ticklish subject. A lot of the rest of them are just cut & paste jobs.

The second one of those is worth reading for the opening line alone,

Quote:
A spectre is haunting Europe. It is the spectre of the Cartesian subject.

grin

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Aug 8 2005 15:27

okay can u get them oline ie FREE?

Zizek seems to be some sort of postmodern leninist from what i can tell.

Though if my hunch is right and he is seeking to reassert the possibility of truth through human self activity eg he is moved beyond deconstruction to seeking to reconstitute "truth" on non essentialist grounds, then I like him for that in itself.

Of course you could get all this out of a rereading of marx, but hey i find you can do that with nearly every issue in critical theory.

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Aug 8 2005 15:34

http://www.lacan.com/frameziz.htm

Lots of Zizek stuff there, including some video footage. He's a fucking right laugh when you see him "live." On the same website there's a fair amount of stuff by the mighty Alain Badiou also.

Couldn't find any full-length books though.

Deezer
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Aug 8 2005 15:39

but revol, you just said one of the things I hate most about this kinda shite discussion about shite - you said ontology (or was it ontological) - I mean fer fuck sake get a grip.

Is it possible to discuss post structural anarchism in English, or any other language that is used for communication rather than exclusion? I think not.

circle A red n black star

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Aug 8 2005 15:45

ontology, the basis or beginning, starting point ie the ontology of communism is human self activity.. It's not difficult you ignorant hun!

I have no problem discussing post structuralism, i do have a problem with retards using it to justify their incoherent politics.

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Aug 8 2005 15:51

seems my hunch was quite close, im liking this sarcy lil cunt Zizek, especially his distain for the politics of Difference which he sees as underpinning liberal discourses. Apparently.

Quote:
Something similar can be said about Zizek's position vis-à-vis cultural studies. As a brilliant cultural commentator, his texts have become almost required reading for courses in cultural studies. Yet Zizek discerns in some forms of cultural a certain complicity with global capitalist relations (Zizek, 1999: 218; 2001a: 226). The typical concern with "pluralist" issues of race, gender, sexuality and so on, is viewed as not only obfuscating the basic dimensions of power and exclusion but also as underpinning the very forms of (liberal) discourse - the emphasis on difference, multiplicity, self-affirmation etc. - though which contemporary capitalism is reproduced.

i think i'll be reading some more of that mofo!

Deezer
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Aug 8 2005 16:16
revol68 wrote:
ontology, the basis or beginning, starting point ie the ontology of communism is human self activity.. It's not difficult you ignorant hun!

I have no problem discussing post structuralism, i do have a problem with retards using it to justify their incoherent politics.

I know what ontology means you twat the point is that it is sociological psuedo-scientific jargon used mostly by academics (or failed academics wink ) to exclude others from the conversation or rather discourse. Without jargon 'the starting point of communism is human self activity' does not on the other hand exclude. It's not difficult you ignorant confused half-a-jaffa.

circle A red n black star

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Aug 8 2005 16:18

yeah but the term ontology also refers to being or the nature of being, for communism being is not distinct from doing but is it's basis, it's quite good short hand thou and compared half the jargonised shite put out is actually quite clear.

don't be cheeky or i'll post up your notes you wrote in my Marx by Terry Eagleton you ole swotty bastard! grin

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Aug 8 2005 16:26

Hi

I like "ontology". I think it should be used more often.

Love

Chris

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Aug 8 2005 16:55
marinebroadcast wrote:

How? what do you mean?

Damn, I can't remember, in the one book I read on post-structural anarchism by Todd May, he seemed to be arguing for the total independence of the individual from power, rather than social struggle, thus making him individualist rather than class-struggle. But he still said he was creating a link between Foucault and Kropotkin. Foucault thought class struggle was racist, and concentrated on an ethics of the individual, while Kropotkin didn't. But I may be entirely wrong, I haven't read the book in yonks

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Aug 8 2005 16:56

No that's wrong, he argued people are shaped by power as well, but he did seem to be a individualist. Hmm

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Aug 8 2005 23:03
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
I know what ontology means you twat the point is that it is sociological psuedo-scientific jargon used mostly by academics (or failed academics

Actually, ontology simply means the branch of metaphysics concerned with the existence of entities. Two common positions in ontology are atheism and theism since they deny or affirm the existence of a certain set of beings (or one particular member of said set in the case of monotheism).

Be well,

Rob Mills

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Aug 8 2005 23:06

thats right cos words don't gain meanings and conatations roll eyes

In critical theory it is usually used in relation to base premises.

Allysaundre
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Aug 8 2005 23:24
revol68 wrote:
thats right cos words don't gain meanings and conatations roll eyes

In critical theory it is usually used in relation to base premises.

The use in critical theory isn't actually removed from it's use in metaphysics proper, speaking of it as being used in "relation to base premises" isn't a way of defining it at all (or is, at least, incomplete and you would really need to expand it to show how that cannot be absorbed by the main definition, not that I'm claiming my definition was fully accurate). The only really removed use of the term "ontology" is in Computer Science (see Wikipedia's article on the uses of ontology), even then it is the case that the use is etymologically linked to its use in metaphysics rather than directly to the original Greek "Ontos" and "Logos".

Be well,

Rob Mills

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Aug 8 2005 23:30

well in critical theory it's used in relation to a set of beings ie humans and their nature.

I wasn't disagreeing with your definition just explaining it's general understanding within critical theory as i thought you were proposing a complete and hermeutically sealed definition. I think i assumed this cos I thought i read somewhere u were much more into analytic philosophy which tends to be very strict and technical in it's definitions.

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Aug 8 2005 23:40
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
revol68 wrote:
ontology, the basis or beginning, starting point ie the ontology of communism is human self activity.. It's not difficult you ignorant hun!

I have no problem discussing post structuralism, i do have a problem with retards using it to justify their incoherent politics.

I know what ontology means you twat the point is that it is sociological psuedo-scientific jargon used mostly by academics (or failed academics wink ) to exclude others from the conversation or rather discourse. Without jargon 'the starting point of communism is human self activity' does not on the other hand exclude. It's not difficult you ignorant confused half-a-jaffa.

circle A red n black star

Can I nominate this for post of the month?

Allysaundre
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Aug 9 2005 00:07
revol68 wrote:
complete and hermeutically sealed definition. I think i assumed this cos I thought i read somewhere u were much more into analytic philosophy which tends to be very strict and technical in it's definitions.

Ah, right, I see. What I said earlier was about the influence of analytic philosophy and the problems that presents for post-structuralism. Perhaps it did seem a bit pro-analytic but actually I'm going to Warwick to do my aesthetics MA simply because it's strong Continental basis (well, that and that its run by prestigious departments). Though it's a fair assumption to make of most philosophy students and academics that they are analytic.

Be well,

Rob Mills

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Aug 9 2005 01:18

i did philosophy at Uni and it was a load of analytical wank, we never got a sniff of post structuralism and Marx was the most modern continental philosopher we studied. All they ever wanted to teach was fucking Plato, Hobbes, Locke and kant. And in my second year we got some cock in who changed the module on political and moral philosophy into a fucking "natural law" wank fest with much fawning over that fat fuckwit Thomas Aquinas.

The only time I ever got a sniff of post structuralism was when we had a module in politics on "contemporary social and political thought" which was a quite basic module focussing on the enlightenment and modernity. The module was good but never gave any introductions into specific thinkers.

I really did detest my philosophy modules, it was all fragmented shit like "medical ethics", "business and environmental ethics", "philosophy of language" and aload of other balls that they seemed to keep deliberately as far away from any sort of relevant or political content.

So wish i had done sociology and politics instead.

actually i soo wish i'd got out of bed and went to fucking class.

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Aug 25 2005 22:47

oh my, first post, and it's going to be a real load of pretentious toss as well...

re popularity in academia: Derrida and the deconstructionists, among others, are vastly more popular in English departments than Philosophy - much of post-structuralism (as befits a movement derived from linguistic theory) lends itself far better to criticism than the actual positive production of texts. in fact, if you look at the post-structuralists, most had a specific vocation outside of philosophy - barthes and derrida did lit crit, foucault was a historian, lacan a psychoanalyst and so on...their ideas came to be known as philosophy simply so they could be lumped together.

re zizek: booya! he's great. since it doesn't really seem to have been mentioned, it's impossible to separate him from the Lacanian tradition. indeed, a basic knowledge of Lacan is hella useful in understanding his work, and also many other contemporary theorists.

Quote:
I know what ontology means you twat the point is that it is sociological psuedo-scientific jargon used mostly by academics (or failed academics ) to exclude others from the conversation or rather discourse. Without jargon 'the starting point of communism is human self activity' does not on the other hand exclude. It's not difficult you ignorant confused half-a-jaffa.

firstly, ontology is one of the basic terms in western philosophy. calling it elitist is a bit stupid, since everyone with an interest in philosophy should know what it means, and everyone who doesn't have an interest in philosophy shouldn't give a shit either way. everyone wins! furthermore, it's not like derrideans go up to people in the street and say "you! do you know what différance means? no? HA!" the people they bang on to about différance have an idea of it, so the dialogue is meaningful. is a conversation between two electronics students about the merits of 555 timers exclusivist just because a literary critic doesn't know what they're on about?

and finally: can post-structuralism be of use to anarchism/communism etc? well, just as an example - surely anybody who's talked politics on a more 'neutral' board than this must have heard the old chestnut "anarchism is fine in theory, but human nature will always see that it ends in disaster". how do you counter that? certainly, people aren't exactly marching out with their black flags demanding the dissolution of the state. the only coherent way to open up the space for radical social change is to dismiss that category, human nature, entirely. and what is it that those pioneering frenchies of the 60s and 70s were doing with their time? exactly. (this is not to excuse the wholly illegitimate jumps of logic that the likes of Laclau and Mouffe make from the critique of essentialism.)