cos by and large they are generally middle class white college kids dripping in guilt and even those that aren't are socialised in that 'political' culture.
Privilege
I had to sit in on a meeting recently (which I talked about in another thread) where someone said "multiply-privileged," twice. Jesus.
I think some of it can probably be blamed on the white skin privilege debate but the way it's used now it's like "privilege" is this liquid substance that can be meted out in various relative quantities. ugh.
I once read that 'New World in our Hearts' Love and Rage book where they go on about white skin privilege, they wanted to kick a group out on the grounds that they believed that class was more important than race 
We do get that kind of shit here but it generally takes the form of third-worldism and it's proponents tend not to come onto libcom.
magnifico wrote:
I once read that 'New World in our Hearts' Love and Rage book where they go on about white skin privilege, they wanted to kick a group out on the grounds that they believed that class was more important than raceWe do get that kind of shit here but it generally takes the form of third-worldism and it's proponents tend not to come onto libcom.
That book's editorial slant was from the wing of L&R that split towards a soft authoritarian communism.
Nate wrote:
I get the impression that US anarchists talk about 'privilege' - as in "I'm privileged in a way such that I recreate hierarchies" - more than anarchists in other places. Is this other people's impression?
Yes - its probably due to the nature of racial oppression in the US as opposed to western Europe where the slave trade may have been initially important to British capitalism but it was external (ie confined to the colonies) and so didn't have the same impact on the structure of the domestic working class. Plus not only did slavery form a major part of the economy very much later than western Europe but through Jim Crow much of its legacy was part of the legal setup until living memory. This has left a working class where racial segregation still exists in a way that it doesn't in say London. As the far left is essentially non existent eft ideology lends up reflecting 'liberal' solutions far more so than would be the case in Europe and within the fight for a nicer capitalism the privilege stuff makes a lot of sense.
Finally the more brutal nature of US capitalism means that situations where it makes 'sense' for one set of workers to try and get a marginal advantage by binding together on the basis of 'race' are going to be more common and such examples can be pointed to by those who put forward 'privilege' theory to demonstrate the corruption of the 'white' working class.
European critiques of privilege theory tend to be very shallow because they don't understand / fail to take into account why it is so important. Which is not to say they are wrong but the shallowness and often outright sneering is a barrier to sensible discussion.
Guilt wrote:
Because we live in a social structure that vastly privileges whites over nonwhites and see eliminating that privilege as a necessary step in eliminating the system itself.
I agree, and an important step in this is for whites to realise that it's mostly our fault.
Jack wrote:
Guilt wrote:
Because we live in a social structure that vastly privileges whites over nonwhites and see eliminating that privilege as a necessary step in eliminating the system itself.I agree, and an important step in this is for whites to realise that it's mostly our fault.
Where I see the problem coming in is when white people accept that the racial history of America is essentially one of privileged whites fucking over everyone else and don't move beyond that- you get Liberal Guilt or the privilege obsession that becomes paralysing.
Guilt wrote:
Where I see the problem coming in is when white people accept that the racial history of America is essentially one of privileged whites fucking over everyone else and don't move beyond that- you get Liberal Guilt or the privilege obsession that becomes paralysing.
I couldn't have put it better.
Jack wrote:
Guilt wrote:
Where I see the problem coming in is when white people accept that the racial history of America is essentially one of privileged whites fucking over everyone else and don't move beyond that- you get Liberal Guilt or the privilege obsession that becomes paralysing.I couldn't have put it better.
Yeah, I agree with this. It is not the idea that there is white privilege (in fact I agree with that and have witnessed it in real terms), instead, it's how this idea is promoted and dealt with that is the problem. In this area there are a few people who always come to meetings, put in their criticism of the group in terms of white privilege, then leave. If there is no real-world praxis in which we can ,as anarchists, combat racism within the movement and outside, then you are just squabbling and feeding your ego through guilt politics.
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Finally the more brutal nature of US capitalism means that situations where it makes 'sense' for one set of workers to try and get a marginal advantage by binding together on the basis of 'race' are going to be more common and such examples can be pointed to by those who put forward 'privilege' theory to demonstrate the corruption of the 'white' working class.
The big question though is to what extent "binding together on the basis of race" has meant "binding together with owners on the basis of race".
Hi
Guilt wrote:
Because we live in a social structure that vastly privileges whites over nonwhites and see eliminating that privilege as a necessary step in eliminating the system itself.
Jack wrote:
I agree, and an important step in this is for whites to realise that it's mostly our fault.
Absolutely, there should be much more discussion between white people about how the privileges they enjoy lie at heart of the system and why it must be eliminated. They should set up a white-only support group.
Love
LR
I find that those who do advance privilege theories don't have a class analysis so much as an analysis of class as just another form of oppression. A class analysis recognizes that the concentration and preservation of power in the hands of an ever decreasing minority requires the atomization and division of the international working class. All forms of oppression under capitalism reinforce the flow of power into the hands of the ruling class. This inversion of analysis leads to absurdities like some members of NEFAC and other anarchist communist organizations actually supporting nationalism. Boggling. Economic privilege is primary over racial privilege. Watch how a poor rural white is treated, especially how those living in squalor in trailor parks are treated. It's horrible how they get abused. Is it because they're white, or is it because they are poor. Are they abused a little less by the stores, shops, and bosses that hire them. Was a house slave being whipped less than a field slave privilege? A slave is a slave. The privilege argument sounds like the dumbasses who say that yeah it's hard on the slave getting whipped, but think about what that brutality is doing to the guy doing the whipping. Absolute bullshit.
The WSP (White Skin Privelege) proponents that I've come across seem to believe that guilt can be a motivating factor of social change. I find it quite contradictory, as anarchist communists, to understand that the state rules through the coercive use of force in the forms of fear, guilt, and violence, and then to try to use the tool of the oppressor on the oppressed to end a form of oppression. Lenin preached that all through "State and Revolution". It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
The relationship of power to race is predicated upon the social relationship of capitlalism where one section of the working class must be super-exploited in order to lower the bottom, thereby lowering the wages of all the working class as the capitalists fall all over themselves in a race to the bottom. The capitalists make trillions in extra profits due to racism, and capitalism cannot survive without racism. All racism is predicated upon recreating the social relationship necessary for the reproduction of capital -- and that is the relationship of domination.
Recognizing privelege is, imho, a waste of fuckin' time. Fine, I'm an American, billions are hungry while there's food in my fridge and there are no holes in my clothes, and, whoa, lookie here, I'm typing on a computer, with electricity. My home is heated at three or four workers (GI's, Afghani, and Iraqi) to the gallon. Yeah, that's why I'm a fuckin' communist. The privilege I have as a communist is the honor and burning desire to tear the state down once and for all. Whatever advantages I get to do that, makes tearing the nails out of this prison that much easier.
If anybody wants to feel guilty about their privilege, then fight for communism and an end to all privilege. Organize in a union, or organize a union, build revolution in the military, publish propoganda, in other words, use whatever crumbs fall from the master's table to smash the state. 'Cause whatever lil' privileges you have, don't mean shit compared to the privilege the international bourgeoisie has to murder, plunder, and kill workers and our world.
The PLP has a great editorial on how racism divides workers and how they smashed up an Obama rally because they recognize that he's an agent of imperialism. Oh wait, maybe they should have tried to guilt him and New Orleans' Mayor Nagin into feeling guilty about all their money and pandering to big business and to give up their privileges and join their fellow black workers in struggle against the state.
wangwei wrote:
Are they abused a little less by the stores, shops, and bosses that hire them. Was a house slave being whipped less than a field slave privilege? A slave is a slave.
Man, I'll inform APOC. "Hey, guys, you know how you've got a strong critique of how the movement being overwhelmingly white leads to all manner of idiocy and insensitivity? This Wangwei guy would like to tell you how you're wrong." You remind me of the people who say shit like "Stop talking about race, it's not important. Class is important." Nobody's saying it isn't, but claiming that race isn't a big issue (and I don't know how the UK is, but it's a big damn deal in the US) is inane.
wangwei wrote:
The privilege argument sounds like the dumbasses who say that yeah it's hard on the slave getting whipped, but think about what that brutality is doing to the guy doing the whipping.
Enjoy your strawman.
wangwei wrote:
The WSP (White Skin Privelege) proponents that I've come across seem to believe that guilt can be a motivating factor of social change. I find it quite contradictory, as anarchist communists, to understand that the state rules through the coercive use of force in the forms of fear, guilt, and violence, and then to try to use the tool of the oppressor on the oppressed to end a form of oppression.
I have this mental image of you, in the midst of revolution, telling everyone to settle down because the owners are going to give up private property if they're asked nicely.
wangwei wrote:
All racism is predicated upon recreating the social relationship necessary for the reproduction of capital -- and that is the relationship of domination.
Of course, racism predates capitalism by millenia, but hey, enjoy that idea.
wangwei wrote:
Recognizing privelege is, imho, a waste of fuckin' time. Fine, I'm an American, billions are hungry while there's food in my fridge and there are no holes in my clothes, and, whoa, lookie here, I'm typing on a computer, with electricity. My home is heated at three or four workers (GI's, Afghani, and Iraqi) to the gallon. Yeah, that's why I'm a fuckin' communist. The privilege I have as a communist is the honor and burning desire to tear the state down once and for all. Whatever advantages I get to do that, makes tearing the nails out of this prison that much easier.
"Communist" isn't a privilege-bestowing category. In fact, if you're known to be a communist, it's a fairly solid social negative. I honestly don't think you know what's being talked about when people talk about privilege.
wangwei wrote:
'Cause whatever lil' privileges you have, don't mean shit compared to the privilege the international bourgeoisie has to murder, plunder, and kill workers and our world.
Yeah, you definitely remind me of the people who tell non-white activists to shut up about race because it's not important.
Recognizing that there are more advantages in U.S. society if you're white working class than if you're a working class person of color isn't the same as rejecting class analysis in favor of amorphous identity politics. Race is a social construct that has material repercussions.
Nobody's ever going to get anywhere by feeling guilty or trying to make other people feel guilty, but I think some of the best materialist theorists on the color line and whiteness in North America (WEB DuBois, CLR James, Theodore Allen, David Roediger) make a very convincing case that "class"/"economic privilege" in practice is broader and more complicated than "class"/"economic privilege" as you seem to be using it. Class formation includes racial formation.
Guilt wrote:
wangwei wrote:
Are they abused a little less by the stores, shops, and bosses that hire them. Was a house slave being whipped less than a field slave privilege? A slave is a slave.Man, I'll inform APOC.
Could you? Maybe then they'll stop spreading bullshit and ridiculous lies about other anarchists.
madashell wrote:
Could you? Maybe then they'll stop spreading bullshit and ridiculous lies about other anarchists.
Jesus, APOC are such fucking morons. Remember that article about how anarchists shouldn't wear black masks because it might make the police want to bea tup blacks?
nah the best one was that crock of shit they reproduced about gay marriage being anti black.
I despair when I read that kind of shit, it's like they treat all these 'oppressions' as individual moments, so it becomes some sort of game of trump cards. Like how R.Kelly's race card trumps your a 14 year old wee girls right not to be sexually abused and videoed or OJ Simpson's race beats his ex wifes gender oppression.
I get the impression that US anarchists talk about 'privilege' - as in "I'm privileged in a way such that I recreate hierarchies" - more than anarchists in other places. Is this other people's impression?
If so, where does this stuff come from? What do folks think of it? I find it gets on my nerves. I mean, it's a well intentioned attempt to talk about hierarchies and divisions within the working class, which are very important, but "I'm bad, I'm priviliged" is both narcissistic and moralizing. Plus it can be a way to feel like you're doing something - "I recognize my privilege" - by just going to a discussion group.
Thoughts?