Proletarians with a Degree

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Joe Hill
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Jan 12 2005 01:20

I think the reality that woofnbark touched on was that, despite education being a 'good thing in itself' (for which you don't need any degrees, but uni can be greatly liberating and educating, esp if you don't have other resources/teachers), many working class people who do do this get co-opted into the middle class and then proceed to suppress the working class from whence they sprang (as managers, graduate trainees etc). No argument about that really I don't think. This is why some left groups insisted that their 'cadres' entered workplaces not uni/college (not that I agree).

Also, is Anarch planning ID cards for the proletariat or do we still go on the shiny hands (my pref.)?

Joe Hill
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Joined: 2-12-04
Jan 14 2005 23:01

So, I win again?

I so know communism is righ*. Hee hee.

Anarch
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Joined: 22-09-04
Jan 15 2005 00:22

Oh there will be IDs. Just you wait until I get my shit together. You see I am kept busy by my job. That is right I have a job...I work. What about it? You guys wanna fight?

Deezer
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Joined: 2-10-04
Jan 15 2005 00:56

So members of the proletariat who get degrees might get coopted. So do a lot of decent shop stewards, so shouldn't we do that either?

Why do I get the awful feeling that I maybe shouldn't have asked that question?

circle A red n black star

Joe Hill
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Jan 16 2005 00:37

Correc* on bo*h coun*s...

gangster
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Jan 16 2005 18:24

The reason why I am still in Higher education (after several breaks) is because the anarchist movement couldn't supply me with the books/ideas I needed to develop my theoretical curiosity...

There is no magazine I think can do the job we need it to do, neither is there a journal, although anarcho's do try with both of these... What's perhaps worse, is that the level of debate within the movement is TOTALLY absent... There are no genuinely OPEN debates, no agreement as to development of theory, a real research agenda, (nor practice for that matter).

We are destined to lose more whose theoretical curiosity takes them elsewhere...

Joe Hill
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Jan 16 2005 22:25

Is it possible you could suggest a list of topics to start with that people could choose to look into and come back in a 'research/theory' forum - may be a list that everyone thinks merits investigaion - any thoughts people? (this is how we did in a uni in the cp when I was gen sec and had all the power, ha ha - not)

Augusto_Sandino
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Joined: 21-02-04
Jan 17 2005 08:18

The Paris student riots centered on the Universities, and thats one of the most interesting things to have happened for the European left since the 50s. And with the way capitalism works, you cant condemn someone for using the system. I mean if you could just "opt out" of capitalism we wouldnt be wanting to overthrow it would we? But the truth is, its an inescapable system. So you need to try and get what little you can, and if that involves getting a degree (and avoiding 4 odd years of work for the boss i might add) then youd be a fool not too.

And its not like everyone with a degree goes on to head a banking firm or own a car factory, your social scientists or whatever are always saying that degrees arent worth shit nowerdays! (probably contradicted myself there...). I look at it a bit like the status of "skilled worker" wouldve been when my parents were kids, just you go to university to get a degree instead of doing an apprenticeship to learn a skill.

And i mean, if 45% or whatever it is of school leavers is going on to higher education, and theyre all going to become member of the bourgoise class that'd pretty much destroy capitalism in a few generations wouldnt it?

woofnbark
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Joined: 16-03-04
Jan 21 2005 17:14

My bunch of degreers at work have gone on a drinking leaving do minus "me" despite me wiping their asses every day for the last few years. It isn't the first time neither so cheers. Nice to know that I have a class status. Dog shit.

So take note you f**king degreers.

angry

Joe Hill
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Jan 21 2005 22:11

grin

Deezer
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Jan 22 2005 00:59

As long as yer 'class struggle' woofnbark yer welcome to come over to Belfast and have a few pints whther I get a degree or not.

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woofnbark
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Joined: 16-03-04
Jan 22 2005 14:29

You've now cheered me up I'm now "offically" Working Class.

grin

Joe Hill
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Jan 22 2005 22:46

I had my honeymoon in West Belfast - it was a choice between that and Beirut. Poleglass actually, B.

Deezer
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Jan 22 2005 23:53

Honeymoon in Poleglass? FFS Joe thats a bit mental... what year if you don't mind me asking? Beruit would have been much more interesting surely?

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Joe Hill
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Jan 24 2005 00:47

1991.

Joe Hill
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Jan 24 2005 05:13

Also, please desist from offering any opinions on anything other than your navel as you are clearly not ualified, even if writen in an entertaining manner, as per your own advice.

Joe Hill
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Jan 26 2005 01:18

And please stop being an ignoramus...

Joe Hill
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Jan 26 2005 23:14

'Loyalist' friend, you may not like the arguments, but ta least be open to other points of view. It's called the dialectic. We may find somehing better.

How did I feel about a teenager from Shettleston pointing a gun at (pregnant) me in the Falls Road ( British Army economic conscripts, walking down the white lines?) Not good, and I told him so in no uncertain terms, at which point he looked sheepish. You need to do more reading and thinking.

Also, the 'two bit' thing gives away US influence, so pack it in and get a culture.

lucy82
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Joined: 31-05-04
Jan 27 2005 09:55

apologies for going off topic but...

Quote:
the 'two bit' thing gives away US influence, so pack it in and get a culture.

its not fair, if hes having one, i want one too. i want a proper culture. one with people in national costume eating the food of their forefathers and dancing traditional dances on traditional dancing days. or sitting in their yurts trying to cope with the tragic realisation that because of US cultural imperialism soon they will no longer be able to bath their babies in goats foot oil as their foremothers have done for generations.

ban those dirty US words from a language which is spoken across continents. you don't happen to be a chef or linguist working for the french government do you? wink

LiveFastDiarrea
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Joined: 19-09-03
Jan 27 2005 13:02

having culture is all about morris dancing, I wish I knew how to do it, its a grand excuse to slap people in the face with animals bladders.

lucy82
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Joined: 31-05-04
Jan 27 2005 17:51

we passed a pub today with a big sign saying Food served all day

Sizzling Morris Dancers..

tis hearty olde english food methinks

Joe Hill
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Jan 27 2005 22:28

grin

phoebe
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Joined: 20-09-03
Jan 28 2005 16:20

I'm a proletarian getting a degree. I'm getting by on a student loan (which is the biggest student loan you can get out of the SLC on account of me and my parents being seriously poor) and anyone else in the country who is an (EU or UK, I can't remember which) citizen can do the same thing I'm doing. I don't see how getting a degree in this case is any indication that I had a moneyed background.

Part of why I'm getting a degree is cause I like being a student. The other half is that I like learning my subject (Maths). There is an element of that that's bourgeois luxury (in that if I was living in a poorer part of the world, I wouldn't be able to get away with just learning things for the sake of it and taking out loans I'll never get around to paying in order to support myself) but so be it. It's not much worse than kids who walk around in designer sweatshop trainers or people who drop out for the sake of "activism" in order to live off donations and stuff. As for not being a proletarian anymore, there's not much chance I'm going to be clocking up huge salaries for anything I can do with maths because

a) There's no way anyone's ever getting me into an accounting/finances job (fuck the ethics on this one, I'm just not interested in the stats maths involved)

b) I'm not really that into physics anymore

c) There are already a whole lot of people doing cryptography research and if I discovered anything spectacular I'd open source it and be shot by some secret government body for it.

d) you can usually tell mathematics lecturers at uni as they're they ones riding bikes instead of cars and wearing charity shop clothes.

Joe Hill
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Jan 29 2005 22:17

Phoebe (good working class name, not), think about it...t=

lucy82
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Jan 29 2005 22:20

why are you telling phoebe to fuck off?

what did phoebe say thats so insulting? she said what she thought and i don't see anything in what she said that deserved that. insulting her is really completely unnecessary. if you disagree with anything she said, then argue it. fucking hell joe, you'll turn into a cheap cardboard version of revol at his worst if you don't watch it.

Joe Hill
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Jan 29 2005 22:42

Go back and look.

lucy82
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Joined: 31-05-04
Jan 29 2005 23:59

ok i looked. glad you took it out. still don't understand though.,

LiveFastDiarrea
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Joined: 19-09-03
Jan 30 2005 14:48

I'm amazed you can pick up on someones class so well that you can guess from the handle they use on an online forum. Its incredible.

LiveFastDiarrea
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Joined: 19-09-03
Jan 30 2005 14:58

yep, and not just canterbury, I'm at the university, and I am running linux so I'm a lifestyler, its so fun...

LiveFastDiarrea
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Jan 30 2005 15:04

thank god for that, I was worried that if anarch ever reads this and crosses the pond he might hunt me down and kill me, what with my dad being a teacher and all as well.