radical feminism

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arf
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Dec 14 2006 19:10
tojiah wrote:

Transgender is noot transsex. Connflating the two is just another instance of trans-fobia. I could be deemed transgender, and I have no intention of surgically or chemically altering my body.

the issue of definitions varies i think, the terms 'transsexual' and 'transgender' seem to mean different things in different parts of the world. madashell also brought me up on saying 'transgender politics' as if it were an insult, which he obviously feels that it is, but i have never come across that before. the people i've read (trans people i mean) have all used transgender as a positive label. i have to admit im confused about this now.

arf
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Dec 14 2006 19:14
Joseph K. wrote:
arf wrote:
its a quote used rather often by radical feminists. funny that.

i think thats the point he was making, that the originators wanted nothing to do with the 'radical feminism' of their time, if yours hails from the 60s/70s, that might be a good comeback wink

[/patronising bloke]

i thought emma goldman was specifically against a sort of wealthy feminism that was only demanding equality with men. that is considered quite a liberal sort of feminism in our part of the world now, but its not the only sort of feminism.

like i said, i like to think if she were doing her thing now that she would id as some sort of feminist.

lem
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Dec 14 2006 19:30

How could it be useful to ciphen the socialism out of feminism?

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Joseph Kay
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Dec 15 2006 05:05

arf: i don't think emma goldman was in mujeres libres, and the slogan explictly doesn't demand liberal sexual equality, but human liberation as well ...

arf
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Dec 15 2006 21:34

im totally missing your point joseph - sorry. youre gonna have to be more blunt.

where are the smileys on this board? i wanna use the embarassed one here, anyway.

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georgestapleton
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Dec 15 2006 23:17

Actually on the topic of the thread.

arf
If you had to recommend one book each by Jeffreys, Millet, McKinnon or Dworkin, what would they be?

arf
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Dec 15 2006 23:37

never read a full length book by jeffeys or mackinnon.

ive tried with mackinnon but found her really hard going. maybe another time. i had a similar problem reading millett, just because i havent read most of the books she critiques.

i dont know with dworkin. i thought 'right wing women' was very good. i havent read the full 'intercourse' yet.

most of the books ive been reading are about history, language, and childbirth. i feel i need to know more about womens history, i find language quite fascinating, and childbirth has been a big issue in my life the past few years.

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georgestapleton
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Dec 15 2006 23:57

thats not what i wanted to hear. cry I've actually read quite a bit of whats on that list but lets say i had read nothing on radical feminism. What would you recommend as 5 starter books. What are the major books to be referred to.

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georgestapleton
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Dec 16 2006 00:01

The books on thelisty I've read parts of are:

The Dialectic of Sex--The Case for Feminist Revolution, Shulamith Firestone
The Whole Woman, Germaine Greer
Witches, Midwives and Nurses: A History of Women Healers, Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English
Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity, Judith Butler
Backlash, Susan Faludi
A Vindication of the Rights of Women, Mary Wollstonecraft, ed.

So what else would you recommend?

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Refused
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Dec 16 2006 00:19

I read Anarchism & Other Essays by Goldman when I was younger. Although I wasn't much interested in the Anarchism at that age. embarrassed

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georgestapleton
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Dec 16 2006 00:28

Is that on the list yeah i've read a lot of that as well.

I read a lot and dont have friends as is evidenced by being on the internet at 12.30 on a friday night. cry

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Refused
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Dec 16 2006 00:29
georgestapleton wrote:
Is that on the list yeah i've read a lot of that as well.

I read a lot and dont have friends as is evidenced by being on the internet at 12.30 on a friday night. cry

I'd say something, but I'm here as well.

ronan
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Dec 16 2006 00:41

yes! backbiting and bitchiness turns into a self help group for friday night wallflowers. all with the help of one taboo breaking confession of vulnerabilty, way to queer masculinity george!

p.s. at least i got to watch aladdin tonight. and i talked to TWO real girls (via the internet).

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georgestapleton
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Dec 16 2006 00:43
ronan wrote:
way to queer masculinity george!

p.s. at least i got to watch aladdin tonight. and i talked to TWO real girls (via the internet).

Fuck you i make johnny cash look camp.

And it doesn't count if your talking to your girlfriend. She has to talk to you. Poor girl.

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Refused
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Dec 16 2006 00:44

What is a 'girl'? I think I knew once, I've forgotten.

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georgestapleton
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Dec 16 2006 01:00
guydebordisdead wrote:
You always have to ruin things by trying to make it be about gender, if your parents had splashed out on a full zygote for you and your brother then you wouldn't have this problem.

Yeah fucking walking abortion guilt trippers.

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I'm in because I got sooooooooooooo drunk last night at the ncad ball.

Are you recovering or is she so pissed that doesn't want to see you. Either way makes me feel better knowing you're hung over and i amn't. grin

arf
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Dec 16 2006 13:44

i would recommend the germaine greer as a decent entry into it all, broken down into short chapters. i would recommend speaking freely by julia penelope, which i can send you a pdf of if you like. also i would recommend "against our will" and "femininity" by susan brownmiller.

tbh i think the best way to read is to take an issue that is important to you and read around that. the thing is that radfems write on all sorts of subjects, but most of their work is not on "radical feminism" as such, but on specific subjects written from a radfem position, iyswim. it's a way of looking at things rather than just a 'specialist subject' of its own. thats one of the reasons i find reading current radfem blogs so helpful, because these women are writing about all sorts of issues from their radfem view, and it's kind of bite size.

ticking_fool
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Dec 16 2006 13:52

Read Jeffreys. One of the non-historical ones is best - Anti-Climax maybe. Everything that's bad and everything that's good about radfem all rolled into one. MacKinnon's Towards a Feminist Theory of State is worth a look, but mostly for the bibliography and summaries - her own argument is awful Leninist crap, but she's good at laying out what other people say (although it's hostile her long summary of Wages for Housework is one of the best I've seen).

For actual good stuff there's Maria Mie's Patriarchy and Accumulation on a World Scale which is a good overview book with a great apparatus for chasing things down. In the Wages for Housework tradition, but more subtle and with a better historical grounding.

arf
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Dec 16 2006 13:57

im going to have to make myself a longer reading list smile

odd
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Dec 16 2006 19:49

hi arf,can you explain what it is that makes a feminist,a radical feminist,isn't all just a search for identity,based on a scale of conviction.

arf
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Dec 16 2006 20:33

do you mean whats the difference between a mainstream liberal feminist and a radical feminist?

radical feminists dont believe that equality should be our goal, but full liberation. we appreciate that reforms must be tried for under patriarchy but we dont believe that they go far enough, they are merely a temporary measure. we believe in the personal is political and approaching all politics from a woman centred pov - this may seem sexist but as all current systems are sexist we are merely trying to bring some balance. radical feminists want the end of white supremacy and capitalism, but vary in their approaches to the latter.

does that kind of answer your question? really it would be better to read around radfems, because we all have slightly different approaches, and different things we focus on.

arf
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Dec 16 2006 21:00

nope. uk.

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georgestapleton
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Dec 16 2006 21:36

Feminism simply recongnises the subjugation of women through sexual inequality and declares that this subjugation and inequality should be brought to an end.

Radical feminism is a bit more precise than that.

Marx once said: "To be radical is to grasp the root of the matter. But, for man, the root is man himself." I think a fair summary of radical feminism would be to say that raidcal feminists believe that "To be radical is to grasp the root of the matter. But, for woman, the root is woman herself." And from that argue that, from a woman's standpoint, they argue that woman is oppressed by man through 'patriarchy'. Essential it argues that sexual opression exists in and of itself and needs to be takled as a defining oppresion in patriarchal capitalist society.

wikipedia wrote:
Radical feminism is a branch of feminism that views women's oppression (which radical feminists refer to as "Patriarchy") as a basic system of power upon which human relationships in society are arranged. It seeks to challenge this arrangement by rejecting standard gender roles and male oppression. The term Militant feminism is a pejorative term which is often associated, usually by detractors, with radical feminism. Often, radical feminism is seen by people other than adherents as a form of identity politics.

The term radical in radical feminism (from Latin rādīx, rādīc-, root) is used as an adjective meaning of or pertaining to the root or going to the root. Radical feminists locate the root cause of women's oppression in patriarchal gender relations, as opposed to legal systems (liberal feminism) or class conflict (socialist feminism and Marxist feminism).

Feminism simply recongnises the subjugation of women through sexual inequality and declares that this subjugation and inequality should be brought to an end.

lem
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Dec 17 2006 00:46
Quote:
approaching all politics from a woman centred pov - this may seem sexist but as all current systems are sexist we are merely trying to bring some balance. radical feminists want the end of white supremacy and capitalism, but vary in their approaches to the latter.

does that kind of answer your question? really it would be better to read around radfems, because we all have slightly different approaches, and different things we focus on

I don't see how you can be acting to end capitalism. It seems important that capitalism could function from a women centred pov, so there is something tacked on to radical feminism to make it anti-capitalist. But, I'm sorry to bring this up again, I was taught that communism is about a universal class, which you must dismiss out of hand: I would go as far as to say that radical feminism is against my political convictions lol

Besides which, if I was going to get into identity politics, I would be interested in "madness", as its more relevent to me.

Just out of interest, arf, do you deny that radical feminism is identity politics; or do you claim that there is something special about women's oppression that does indeed separate it from other varities of oppression?

I mean, at its most basic, I don't see why radical feminism is worth my time? Its an oppression. Say, if I wasn't communistically minded, I would be more intersted in being anti-war or something (though of course being a victim of war isn't enough of an identity roll eyes)

Radical feminism: anti-communist and there are better alternatives smile

I am not a mysogonyst angry

lem
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Dec 17 2006 01:01

Say not all oppression of women is from class conflict: w/c women would still be opppressed sepcifically (prehaps not in ways worse than w/c men) under capitalism. Therefore you can't win: you can't end women's oppression, all you can do is ask for an equal amount of oppression with men! Radical feminism defeats itself!

lem
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Dec 17 2006 01:08

Sorry to triple post sad

as I understand it, to avoid cipehing socialism out of feminism, one would have to accept either:
1. Class is more basic
2. Patriachy negatively affects all working class people

Otherwise there just is no universality to your "socialism".

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oisleep
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Dec 17 2006 12:44

is getting more woman chief executives part of the plan to overthrow capitalism arf?

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Dec 17 2006 12:57
oisleep wrote:
is getting more woman chief executives part of the plan to overthrow capitalism arf?

Liberal feminism, innit.

arf
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Dec 17 2006 14:52
Quote:
do you deny that radical feminism is identity politics; or do you claim that there is something special about women's oppression that does indeed separate it from other varities of oppression?

i dont really believe that the term 'identity politics' is anything other than a derogatory term tbh. also, i think all class based politics would have to fall into that category too, if it was being fairly applied.

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Say not all oppression of women is from class conflict

okay.

not all oppression of women is from class conflict

Quote:
as I understand it, to avoid cipehing socialism out of feminism, one would have to accept either:
1. Class is more basic
2. Patriachy negatively affects all working class people

patriarchy negatively affects everyone, but to different degrees.

Quote:
Maggie Thatcher had a womens POV

did she really? a woman centred approach does not mean agreeing with all other women, which would be impossible. a woman centred approach means actually taking women into consideration.

i wonder what would happen if you applied these same standards to your own politics?

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is getting more woman chief executives part of the plan to overthrow capitalism arf?

what refused said.

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madashell
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Dec 17 2006 14:56
arf wrote:
i dont really believe that the term 'identity politics' is anything other than a derogatory term tbh. also, i think all class based politics would have to fall into that category too, if it was being fairly applied.

No it wouldn't, because class politics isn't necessarily about identity.

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