Haven't read it. Sounds sort of like Thomas Frank's position on this stuff.
Also reminds me: Brian Holmes argues that the old "cultural critique" of capitalism held a certain (if limited) usefulness during a phase in the class struggle which has long since passed, and argues for an entirely new one (without giving much of an idea what it might look like).
Just looked at the book and review of it- it doesn't look like it is saying anything in the critique of liberal anti-globalisation that communists haven't been saying? It just misidentifies these people and their ethical consumerism-friendly ideas with 'anti-capitalists'. Is it worth reading?
Yes they referance your man Franks in The Rebel Sell, and basically say that their approach to the consumer society is derived from his.
I've read the Rebel Sell a couple of times and think it is a sound little book. Not sure how it is a response to No Logo, but then it is years since I skimmed through that book. A mate of mine disagrees with my take on Rebel Sell considerably - it doesn't define counter-culture, and then conflates counter-culture with a whole lot of other things like Hollywood movies. Y'know he has a point, Rebel Sell claims that for the last 40 years radical politics has been based on *counter-culture* rather than *socialism*.....so maybe they could have produced more of a history of, and wrote more of the theories of, people who are/were attempting to change society via drop out cultures and lifestyle changes. I mean putting that forward as an actual programme for social change.
Do other folk know of examples of this? The only thing I can think of is the (government promoted) drive to switch off your lights so your grandchildren have a planet to live on, plus sometimes the idea of "eco-villages" are put forward - which is more of a practical example than anything else. Well Rudolf Bahro was well into communes and that as well, but I think in a more kinda sophisticated way than Rebel Sell would grant. Most people into who are into dropping out and living alternativly and so on are just finding a nice way to live I would say. So that leaves us with what crimethinc? I have to read crimethinc books to get an actual take on what they are about as opposed to hearing second hand.
Well I read a lot of stuff other folks generally won't, mind you I make a lot of effort not to read stuff just from the communist genre. More or less it's what 'listen anarchist' or 'social anarchism or lifestyle anarchism' has been saying for a long time. It's interesting to see these arguments enter the mainstream though, and hopefully will generate a bit of debate in the left media. Remember that Naomi Klein is a minor celebrity here and is published in the mainstream media, seeing this debate enter the mainstream in Canada in some ways is a positive development.
Oh yes of course I forgot 'ethical consumerism', is that still alive in other countries? herebouts you used to have radical types promoting it, but now as it is being promoted by the state, and a state which has one of the worst records on climate change (per capita Irish republic is one of the highest greenhouse gas emitters in the world), so I can't see it having much of a future as something folk who are actually looking for change promote. We have like hippies and that here, but there is usually no connection between them and the libertarian left or any other politics as far as I can see.
I think their argument that counter culture and marketing go hand in hand is basically true though. I mean really, what is punk rock about punk rock? Nothing. Is there fundamentally any difference in the politics between Crass and Jefferson Airplane? Not really. Then why does Crass bash hippies? Because they were the previous generation and they apparently sold out. The entire notion of counter culture has nothing to do with breaking out of some bland consumer driven world into one where creativity and culture are valued its about the social status of hipsters that can stay just ahead of trends.
Even look at my own tastes in music. Punk rock was cliche everyone else listened to it, so I listen to country. Only thing is that country out here is the new punk rock. This isn't a conscious thing it's just the way trends work. I mean I'm sure you folks are all unique special little flowers and all but you have a lot less agency in the way you dress, talk and the music you listen to than you think.
There's this discussion about loft condominiums in there that is fucking hillarious. Naomi Klein in proper lefty style is complaining about the gentrification of the warehouse district she lives in that is full of artists, punk shows and vegetarian resteraunts. Of course the problem is that all the middle class bohemians are the ones that made it trendy, and now they are being driven out by the 'yuppies' -as if these folks aren't yuppies that don't shower.
I mean look at Kevin Keating on here talking about the Mission Yuppie Eradication project, what he is really upset about is the fact that he is no longer cool for living in a poor latino neighbourhood because all these 'yuppies' (read counter culture types with nicer jobs) are moving in because they want to be cool too. The class critique runs completely backwards because in a lot of ways he was the first gentrifier, the cardinal sin of these yuppies has nothing to do with class, it has to do with undermining his status as cool and them being poseurs.
Just a thought, not that this occurs to the authors of the rebel sell, but maybe what it is that is rebellious are those who will stad up to bosses and spend a lot of time doing the unglamorous work of organising. Maybe what's rebellious are the people who spend time volunteering at women's shelters. Now I'm not saying that folks on here aren't doing good practical work, but why is it we cling to our stupid counter cultural connections (like mesh trucker hats, tight black punk pants, and clothes with lots of patches) so hard?
I think their argument that counter culture and marketing go hand in hand is basically true though. I mean really, what is punk rock about punk rock? Nothing. Is there fundamentally any difference in the politics between Crass and Jefferson Airplane? Not really. Then why does Crass bash hippies? Because they were the previous generation and they apparently sold out. The entire notion of counter culture has nothing to do with breaking out of some bland consumer driven world into one where creativity and culture are valued its about the social status of hipsters that can stay just ahead of trends.Even look at my own tastes in music. Punk rock was cliche everyone else listened to it, so I listen to country. Only thing is that country out here is the new punk rock. This isn't a conscious thing it's just the way trends work. I mean I'm sure you folks are all unique special little flowers and all but you have a lot less agency in the way you dress, talk and the music you listen to than you think.
There's this discussion about loft condominiums in there that is fucking hillarious. Naomi Klein in proper lefty style is complaining about the gentrification of the warehouse district she lives in that is full of artists, punk shows and vegetarian resteraunts. Of course the problem is that all the middle class bohemians are the ones that made it trendy, and now they are being driven out by the 'yuppies' -as if these folks aren't yuppies that don't shower.
I mean look at Kevin Keating on here talking about the Mission Yuppie Eradication project, what he is really upset about is the fact that he is no longer cool for living in a poor latino neighbourhood because all these 'yuppies' (read counter culture types with nicer jobs) are moving in because they want to be cool too. The class critique runs completely backwards because in a lot of ways he was the first gentrifier, the cardinal sin of these yuppies has nothing to do with class, it has to do with undermining his status as cool and them being poseurs.
Just a thought, not that this occurs to the authors of the rebel sell, but maybe what it is that is rebellious are those who will stad up to bosses and spend a lot of time doing the unglamorous work of organising. Maybe what's rebellious are the people who spend time volunteering at women's shelters. Now I'm not saying that folks on here aren't doing good practical work, but why is it we cling to our stupid counter cultural connections (like mesh trucker hats, tight black punk pants, and clothes with lots of patches) so hard?
Excellently said.
Yeah I liked that bit about Klein and her loft too! All that I understand, it is where the connection with radical politics comes in is my confusion.
Well my understanding of counter-culture is that it is counter to the dominant ideas and mores in society. I have seen counter-culture used to describe communities around the historic British, Spanish, and German labour movements. I have used the term myself in describing the milieu of agrarian secret societies in C18th and C19th Ireland (the Molly Macquires were one of the expat wings). It is also used to describe free festivals, hippies, anarcho-punk, back to the land, New Age Travellers and the like. I can see how all that there in the later section feeds into what The Rebel Sell is on about, sort of, and sometimes, particularly in regard to the 60s. But I think maybe a lot of all that is people trying to live their lives and make their own entertainment and that in the context of mass unemployment. Where I have difficulty is where, apart from 'ethical consumerism', which to be honest is a facet of the most liberal part of the environmental movement, though more than that take it up, is the connection with radical politics? What I'm looking for is actual tendencies that promote dropping out/lifestyle change/changing what you consume as a revolutionary practise. I meet some people who are 'ethical consumers' but hardly think that is the be all and end all, and would spend sometime I think promoting certain lifestyle changes or at least wanting to promote questions around consumption, but very much recognise the existance of 'hippy capitalism'. I think one wing of the green movement here went in a 'back to the land' direction in the early 80s. What I'm used to is a libertarian left that has some cross over with the punk scene (and for that matter a cross over with whatever that is where people listen to electronic music) and probably a disproportionate number of people who might dress a bit what some folk would call hippy - dreads or whatever, but I've never came across a kinda dropping out of society tendency or the idea that wearing this or that is rebellion, or listening to this or that, maybe sometimes consuming or not this or that...at least in regard to meat. I'm not saying this doesn't exist, far from it * , I'm just curious and want to learn more.
* I am an owner of the infamous Active Minds LP where the inlay goes on about not supporting the Miners cause they eat meat and the print workers cause they print the Sun...or something like that. Yeah I know this is out there, I want to get a handle on where people are coming from with it, from their own point of view, not just that of their critics.
Terry, my point is that if it is tied to counter culture and steeped in a 'scene' it is objectively counter revolutionary. Interestingly there has always been a tenuous relationship between counter culture and revolutionary movements- and it has always been the counter culture that is more interested in that association, and it has been to the detriment of the real movements.
Look at Lord Byron and the Luddites, you think the Luddites cared about Byron? Look at Shelley's endorsement of anarchism? You think early french anarchists gave two shits about Shelley? Even Emma Goldman was more of a cheerleader for a scene than any meaningful connection to a revolutionary movement by the early 20th century. Now all of these are intellectuals I like and read, over and over again. But these people are artists, they are interested in metaphysical rebellion, they are hipsters there is nothing revolutionary about them. It's the difference between a stirnerite 'revolt' and a working class revolution. Just because Goya produced a lot of art on Spanish insurgents doesn't mean they were somehow cultural rebels- it means they were a muse for an idealist kind of rebellion that Goya was only interested in on a metaphysical plane. The identification with german, english and spanish labour movements as counter culture are not made by these movements themselves, its made by the intellectual middle class bohemians that want to gentrify their movement.
Look at Franklin Rosemont's claiming of Joe Hill as part of a 'radical working class counter culture'. Bullshit, Joe hill was a propagandist; he produced art for the purpose of political organising. Art is for art scene snobs, art for organising is propaganda. To flip this statement, good propaganda makes for bad art. Joe Hill was not counter culture, look at the art of Robert Minor if you want counter culture, that is until 1919 happened and he started producing propaganda for the Bolsheviks, at which point he became a revolutionary.
Real revolutionary organising is not fun. It involves knocking on doors, lots of sitting in meetings, reading legislation, and ruthlessly criticising each other- it's the exact opposite of fun.
It involves knocking on doors, lots of sitting in meetings, reading legislation, and ruthlessly criticising each other- it's the exact opposite of fun.
i don't think that this is in anyway counter-counter-cultural tho. indeed, i think that a group which seriously claims to be opposed to the counter-cultural (nrt), automatically falls into it's own trap. there is no way to dissolve social norms (-of the counter-culture) solely in your own limited sphere. as soon as any norms makes a claim for universality, which surely all notms do, they cannot be avoided.
Here's another try at it:
Revolutionary------------------------------ Revolting
the working class-----------------------anarchism
having an office--------------------------having an infoshop, social centre, or squat
work-------------------------------------------art
discipline-----------------------------------autonomy
my coworkers----------------------------------me
Aww shucks Duke you're such a charmer.If you ever come up to E-town we chuck 40's at crimethincers and listen to Shania Twain together.
You get cleaner shots with Mickey's "grenades" but I'm down with Shania. You ever listen to that canadian bluegrass version of The Wall?
The identification with german, english and spanish labour movements as counter culture are not made by these movements themselves, its made by the intellectual middle class bohemians that want to gentrify their movement.
I said British not English you imperialist 
Mmm no, not as far as I know, but by Murray Bookchin, some person writing in Do or Die! and some modern academics I think.
To explain my understanding of it and why I used it, you have movements embedded in mores, norms, ideas and instituions seperate and counter to those dominant in society (at least dominant in the sense of promoted by the people dominant). This including, as well as the obvious parties and unions, entertainment and recreation, eg drinking clubs, sports clubs, educational institutions, other mutual aid bodies. These making for whole communities whole lives emersed in a culture opposed to the dominant one, a counter-culture. Tim Mason I think it is writes about how changing types of housing and the rise of privatised entertainment - the radio, began to break this up and was a contributory factor to the decline of the German labour movement.
This is by no means my central argument - I was just using it to illustrate how counter culture doesn't necessarily mean bohemians, hipsters and the like. I agree with where The Rebel Sell is coming from on that, and what you have been posting.....my issue concerns the relationship between this apparently radical art, consumer choices and lifestyles and radical politics. I've never really come across anyone arguing you can create a little bubble outside of capitalism as a revolutionary strategy, which is my understanding of 'lifestylism', except for Rudolf Bahro, leading 'fundamentalist' of the German Green Party circa 1984. The nearest thing I come across is Food not Bombs, and eco-villages, which in both cases as I understand it is intended as a form of propaganda, and as such not inherently any different from any other form of propaganda.
Like I say I know by all accounts this 'lifestylist' phenomenon exists, and I'm more looking for pointers as to what to read in terms of groups, zines, writers, to get a handle on where its proponents are coming from.
Bear in mind I don't live in North America where as far as I understand it this sort of malarky is widespread. I live in Ireland, first anarchist meeting I went to I was the one looking out of place.....due my 'alternative' attire, not everyone elses! AFAIK the sub-cultures we do have that were sometimes associated with the green movement, e.g. health food stores, alternative medicine, back to the landers, paganism and New Age, are almost totally a-political.
So I’m not disagreeing with you, more looking for someone to explain the phenomenon to me.
Maybe it is more a North American, though I certainly saw enough of it in London to be sceptical of claims of it only being North American. Also not all institutions that run counter to the dominant interests of society are counter cultural. In fact the main problem I am identifying is conflating the two, you can be a radical and not come off as a total granola chewing, free love espousing, bike riding flake.
Yeah i just don't think that communism has anything to do with counter-culture excpet as something else to critque.
But of course that extends to communists not being immune to counter-cultrural norms: without a critique honest communists are still going to bothered about whether they are hip or square, as much as any group. and that's just not a problem.
you know what. i asked the head of my unis philosophy departmenti, a marxist himself, if could write a dissertation on mental illlness and communism. he just said "I have lots of students wanting to write about communism because it's sexy". I'm not sure what to make of that, other than that can only be a good thing for me 
Oh and further on the relationship between working class movements and culture in the sense of art/entertainment, around 250 to 150 years ago in Ireland, the period of the secret societies of agricultural labourers, ‘chap books’ and street ballads about bandits were very popular, which surely had an inter-relationship with the propensity of rural labourers for sabotage and violence along almost banditry lines.
Also, and it is not something I know much about, a case could be made for seeing drop out cultures, like some punks and New Age Travellers, as a form of collective rebellion.
Obviously as a revolutionary strategy going and living in a van is not really a runner. But maybe for some people it beats having a crap job or unemployment on a council estate.
This in a context of mass unemployment, and as the unemployed are supposed to be a ’reserve army of labour’ to exert a downward pressure on the wages and conditions of the employed, building up a counter-cultural alternative community around unemployment which is attractive to at least some, could then be said to be some class of a challenge to capital.
Which would explain the interest of the British state in introducing new legislation and unleashing rampant police violence against it, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_age_travellers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_beanfield
I’m sure I read an argument like that somewhere or other, perhaps in Aufheben.
In fact the main problem I am identifying is conflating the two, you can be a radical and not come off as a total granola chewing, free love espousing, bike riding flake.
Well is it counter-cultural......I think that is where we are at, and where The Rebel Sell, is at, granola or museli (same thing yes?) is a standard breakfast cereal here, free love strikes me as a bit individualistic, and bike riding....apparently our Green Party members of parliament were on tv a while ago promoting this as the answer to climate chaos.....holding up fold up bikes that come in at around 500 or 600 euros (apparently so I do not know about these things)...looks like conspicuous consumption and consumption as a status maker…like The Rebel Sell would say.
Probably more sub culture - that is different from the dominant, as opposed to counter culture, which means opposing the dominant. Seeing as we all reckon driving a VW van or driving an SUV is a superficial difference, likewise wearing X to say I have money as opposed to wearing Y to say I'm different.
Yeah on my travels I've seen a fair bit where movements take on sub-cultural aspects (eg loads of young people with dreads) or are based around the punk scene. I don't like this. Seems more like a ghetto. The SUMAC social centre in Nottingham seems, from one visit, to be quite different from this, at least judging by the folk in the bar and what people involved in it have said. I have seen this in various European contexts in regard to punk, sorta neo-hippy, skinhead.....and indeed to some extent in Ireland also (but much more minor way I would say). Though in my experience I would say there is no necessary relationship between ones politics and ones taste in music or clothing, it works both ways, you can have punks etc... with sound politics. But you cannot build a movement around a scene, it is limiting.
That though is somewhat different from building a drop out counter-culture as a revolutionary strategy.
It is also somewhat different from, and I guess drop out counter-culture as a revolutionary strategy feeds into this, notions like not supporting some folk cause they eat meat or burn peat.
New clashes between locals and riot police erupt in the south Corfu town of Lefkimi over the construction of open refuse dump.
Sergio Bologna's work on class composition through the unrest in Italy during the 1960s and 1970s.
So two Canadian liberal academics put out a book as a reply to Naomi Klein's No Logo. Has anyone else read it?
There are some extremely strong points to this book in spite of its liberal stance. Their attempts to take on marxist economics are pretty weak, and they are obviously not coming from a class struggle perspective by any stretch. But they slaughter a lot of the critique of consumer society, guy debord, and Adbusters (another Canadian anti-glob icon). I'm just about finished it and all in all it is definitely one of the better books critical of radical politics I've read in some time.