Scabbing on racist strikes?

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
Submitted by madashell on 16 February, 2007 - 12:27.
ftony wrote:
a more complex issue would be if they ever get big enough to have strikes - do we cross their picket lines if we agree with why the strike is taking place (e.g. wages, layoffs, etc with no race issue involved, which would often happen in the day-to-day running of any union, fascist or otherwise)?

I'm not seeing anything complex there. You don't scab, whether you agree with the strike or not.

If there is a race issue, you can always show up and counter-leaflet explaining why you disagree with the strike but won't cross the picket line.

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revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:12
madashell wrote:
ftony wrote:
a more complex issue would be if they ever get big enough to have strikes - do we cross their picket lines if we agree with why the strike is taking place (e.g. wages, layoffs, etc with no race issue involved, which would often happen in the day-to-day running of any union, fascist or otherwise)?

I'm not seeing anything complex there. You don't scab, whether you agree with the strike or not.

If there is a race issue, you can always show up and counter-leaflet explaining why you disagree with the strike but won't cross the picket line.

Things aren't that simple though, what if it is a race issue and funny enough non whites aren't out on strike over it, do you still refuse to cross the picket line? To my mind refusing to "scab" on racist scum is infact scabbing on the whole of the working class. Just because someone throws up a "picket line" does not itself make it worth defending or uncrossable.

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 12:30
revol68 wrote:
Things aren't that simple though, what if it is a race issue and funny enough non whites aren't out on strike over it, do you still refuse to cross the picket line? To my mind refusing to "scab" on racist scum is infact scabbing on the whole of the working class. Just because someone throws up a "picket line" does not itself make it worth defending or uncrossable.

By crossing the picket line, you're siding with your boss against other workers. It's up there with fuckwit trots championing laws against "incitement to religious hatred" because it'll make things difficult for the BNP.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:34
madashell wrote:
revol68 wrote:
Things aren't that simple though, what if it is a race issue and funny enough non whites aren't out on strike over it, do you still refuse to cross the picket line? To my mind refusing to "scab" on racist scum is infact scabbing on the whole of the working class. Just because someone throws up a "picket line" does not itself make it worth defending or uncrossable.

By crossing the picket line, you're siding with your boss against other workers. It's up there with fuckwit trots championing laws against "incitement to religious hatred" because it'll make things difficult for the BNP.

no, if the picket line is racist, if it is not a workers dispute but a racist one then you aren't scabbing, rather the ones picketing are the scabs as they have put their race above their class. And don't fucking patronise me with comparisons to liberal trots, it's based on experiancing sectarian strikes in northern ireland.

Steven. ""Best hair at Unison conference""
Posts: 1857 Joined: 27-06-06 Location: London
16 February, 2007 - 12:37
madashell wrote:
By crossing the picket line, you're siding with your boss against other workers. It's up there with fuckwit trots championing laws against "incitement to religious hatred" because it'll make things difficult for the BNP.

But look at the potential example revol gave. Are you working right now? If your white co-workers went on strike against your firm having black employees, and your black co-workers were inside, working, would you stay out?

This is an issue which could come up, especially in the building trade with migrant workers.

That said I'm against scabbing in principle because it does undermine workers' strength in favour of the bosses. But what if you weren't white yourself? I suppose if that were the case crossing the line with cause further division between yourself and the white workers.

I think if it were possible I'd not cross the line but I'd argue for making class demands instead - for example higher wages in themselves rather than no migrant workers. I recognise this would probably not be possible for some things.

I'm guessing revol is thinking about Northern Irish sectarian strikes, in which pickets weren't up for political discussion...

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:38

And if it is a racist dispute then how can you side with your bosses by crossing it? I mean if the picket line isn't against the bosses then you crossing it isn't for them. Now it may well true that the bosses are against the strike cos of it's affects on production etc but that is just an overlap in interest in the same way that me opposing the provo's overlaps with the RUC, ie meaningless.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:42
John. wrote:
madashell wrote:
By crossing the picket line, you're siding with your boss against other workers. It's up there with fuckwit trots championing laws against "incitement to religious hatred" because it'll make things difficult for the BNP.

But look at the potential example revol gave. Are you working right now? If your white co-workers went on strike against your firm having black employees, and your black co-workers were inside, working, would you stay out?

This is an issue which could come up, especially in the building trade with migrant workers.

That said I'm against scabbing in principle because it does undermine workers' strength in favour of the bosses. But what if you weren't white yourself? I suppose if that were the case crossing the line with cause further division between yourself and the white workers.

I think if it were possible I'd not cross the line but I'd argue for making class demands instead - for example higher wages in themselves rather than no migrant workers. I recognise this would probably not be possible for some things.

I'm guessing revol is thinking about Northern Irish sectarian strikes, in which pickets weren't up for political discussion...

If workers walked out in opposition to the hiring of black workers then they are scabbing on the class, they have refuted their identity as a prole and have instead embraced race, that is scabbing and it's even worse because it's not fuelled by poverty, desperation, a breakdown in will. If the reactionary cunts don't want to work with blacks then fuck'em, and if they are sacked then tough shit, i'd not back them.

jack white
Posts: 334 Joined: 07-04-05 Location: Dublin, Ireland
16 February, 2007 - 12:44
revol68 wrote:
And don't fucking patronise me with comparisons to liberal trots, it's based on experiancing sectarian strikes in northern ireland.

What sectarian strikes?

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 12:44
revol68 wrote:
no, if the picket line is racist, if it is not a workers dispute but a racist one then you aren't scabbing, rather the ones picketing are the scabs as they have put their race above their class. And don't fucking patronise me with comparisons to liberal trots, it's based on experiancing sectarian strikes in northern ireland.

It might not be the class acting for itself, but the people in the dispute are still workers.

Surely it's better to refuse to cross the picket line but (as John. suggests) argue for class demands, instead of alienating yourself from other workers?

ticking_fool
Posts: 553 Joined: 12-03-05 Location: UK, Liverpool
16 February, 2007 - 12:46
Quote:
Things aren't that simple though, what if it is a race issue and funny enough non whites aren't out on strike over it, do you still refuse to cross the picket line?

The ideal solution, I suppose, would be for the non-whites to come out against the union (who would almost certainly be collaborating with management in that kind of situation) and physically break the fascist picket lines or something like that - but I don't know how that would work out in practice. Any situation when there are openly racist pickets is going to be highly confrontational anyway, so I'm not sure crossing a picket line would even come up - it'd be a fucking war zone.

The issue where a BNP union strikes over something unobjectionable is more pertinant, and definitely more likely to be their strategy, and that really is difficult to call. Again, I guess an alternative organisation within the workplace would be the way to do it - break the BNP picket with your own picket, refuse to cooperate with any BNP negotiated settlements and continue to strike until management deals with you instead of them. That, however, would be incredibly difficult to pull off, especially if the fascist union was softpeddaling its far right connections - they could end up appearing as the real radicals and you as a management stooge if you weren't careful.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if it comes to the point where the BNP have a picket line which is broadly accepted as legitimate by most workers, then you've already lost and the choice of whether to scab or not to scab is just a choice between how you accept defeat.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:48
jack white wrote:
revol68 wrote:
And don't fucking patronise me with comparisons to liberal trots, it's based on experiancing sectarian strikes in northern ireland.

What sectarian strikes?

The numerous ones that went on during the troubles, most notably the UWC. My da told me loads of stories about workers going on strike over allsorts of sectarian shite, of territorial games being played out on the shopfloor, of how they spent more time fighting each other than they ever did the bosses and management. To be fair this was his experiance in a new factory built on a peace line, the workers had seperate gates to enter from ffs.

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 12:48
revol68 wrote:
If workers walked out in opposition to the hiring of black workers then they are scabbing on the class, they have refuted their identity as a prole and have instead embraced race, that is scabbing and it's even worse because it's not fuelled by poverty, desperation, a breakdown in will. If the reactionary cunts don't want to work with blacks then fuck'em, and if they are sacked then tough shit, i'd not back them.

It's all very well (and pretty tempting) to say "fuck'em", but it's never literally going to be a case these days of white workers striking to keep black workers out, rather it's likely to be British-born workers striking to keep migrant workers out, which is pretty likely to be driven by poverty, as it happens.

We need to be arguing with other workers, however "reactionary" they might be, not telling everybody who's a bit racist (and a fair chunk of the population are) to fuck off.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:51
madashell wrote:
revol68 wrote:
no, if the picket line is racist, if it is not a workers dispute but a racist one then you aren't scabbing, rather the ones picketing are the scabs as they have put their race above their class. And don't fucking patronise me with comparisons to liberal trots, it's based on experiancing sectarian strikes in northern ireland.

It might not be the class acting for itself, but the people in the dispute are still workers.

Surely it's better to refuse to cross the picket line but (as John. suggests) argue for class demands, instead of alienating yourself from other workers?

Not they are nationalists and racists in dispute, they are in pitting themselves against other workers not against the bosses.

Think for a second how it would look to those black workers walking a gauntlet of abuse and hatred that suppoused socialists and anti racists turn up not to walk with them but to have a wee cup of tea and a chat with racist scum whilst not crossing the picket line. Furtermore what if your black yourself? Do you not join the picket line? Do you strengthen a dispute aimed at getting you sacked, a campaign aimed against your family and friends, a campaign of hatred on the basis of your very being?

ticking_fool
Posts: 553 Joined: 12-03-05 Location: UK, Liverpool
16 February, 2007 - 12:55
Quote:
Think for a second how it would look to those black workers walking a gauntlet of abuse

Are they going to do that though? It seems to me that it's got to end up far more confrontational than that, and there's no way that broader communities outside the workplace wouldn't get involved. What was the experience of sectarian strikes in NI (I know fuck all about them)?

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 12:57
revol68 wrote:
Not they are nationalists and racists in dispute, they are in pitting themselves against other workers not against the bosses.

Think for a second how it would look to those black workers walking a gauntlet of abuse and hatred that suppoused socialists and anti racists turn up not to have a wee cup of tea and a chat with racist scum whilst not crossing the picket line. Furtermore what if your black yourself? Do you not join the picket line? Do you strengthen a dispute aimed at getting you sacked, a campaign aimed against your family and friends, a campaign of hatred on the basis of your very being?

Again, the situation you're putting forward here seems pretty fucking unlikely in 21st century Britain. A racist workplace dispute is not going to be foaming at the mouth fascists spitting at black workers walking into work, it's ordinary people who have swallowed the racist rhetoric of the BNP, that we have something to gain from keeping migrant workers out, and that's something that has to be engaged with directly and argued out.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 12:59
Quote:
We need to be arguing with other workers, however "reactionary" they might be, not telling everybody who's a bit racist (and a fair chunk of the population are) to fuck off.

stop twisted shit, it's not a matter of people being a bit racist ffs. You think there weren't people on the Posties Wildcat who held vaguely sectarian views? It's a matter of the issue, is it in itself racist and the like. For example workers walking out because the Union Flag is not being displayed, do you support that? Do you fuck!

This whole idea that you have to engage the class is all very well but surely the most important part is standing in solidarity for all the class, and that means solidarity for ethnic and immigrant workers under attack before you go consciousness raising with bigots.

Your view point is ridiculous WASP centric.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 13:03
ticking_fool wrote:
Quote:
Think for a second how it would look to those black workers walking a gauntlet of abuse

Are they going to do that though? It seems to me that it's got to end up far more confrontational than that, and there's no way that broader communities outside the workplace wouldn't get involved. What was the experience of sectarian strikes in NI (I know fuck all about them)?

it was often this case for first generation immigrants in the 50's who lacked the support networks or roots to be able to actively resist it.

In Northern Ireland working class communities and territory is divided and so it was often the case of the minority workers taking shit and being forced out. So Catholics got intimidated out of places which were prod and Protestants getting put out of places that were catholic.

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 13:05
revol68 wrote:
stop twisted shit, it's not a matter of people being a bit racist ffs. You think there weren't people on the Posties Wildcat who held vaguely sectarian views? It's a matter of the issue, is it in itself racist and the like. For example workers walking out because the Union Flag is not being displayed, do you support that? Do you fuck!

It's not a question of supporting their demands, but not alienating them. And as ticking_fool already said, once people are out on a racist picket, it's a question of the best way to admit defeat.

john
Posts: 881 Joined: 09-07-06
16 February, 2007 - 13:08

Of course, the day-to-day turning up at work is a process of exploitation, that should be resisted whenever possible.

But if you turn up most days and strike on the racist-strike day then clearly your expressing support for the racist-strike.

I half agree with John. - that you need to try and argue for a class, rather than race, interpretation of the industrial dispute.

But you also need to scab in this (hypothetical) instance.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 13:10
madashell wrote:
revol68 wrote:
Not they are nationalists and racists in dispute, they are in pitting themselves against other workers not against the bosses.

Think for a second how it would look to those black workers walking a gauntlet of abuse and hatred that suppoused socialists and anti racists turn up not to have a wee cup of tea and a chat with racist scum whilst not crossing the picket line. Furtermore what if your black yourself? Do you not join the picket line? Do you strengthen a dispute aimed at getting you sacked, a campaign aimed against your family and friends, a campaign of hatred on the basis of your very being?

Again, the situation you're putting forward here seems pretty fucking unlikely in 21st century Britain. A racist workplace dispute is not going to be foaming at the mouth fascists spitting at black workers walking into work, it's ordinary people who have swallowed the racist rhetoric of the BNP, that we have something to gain from keeping migrant workers out, and that's something that has to be engaged with directly and argued out.

if it got to the situation of the BNP having a large union presence and being able to kick off these sort of things then it would be pretty heated and foaming.

Also in relation to immigrant workers, are we talking about them being used as scab labour? Or just being hired on low wages? Or just becuase they are hired fullstop?

If it's them being used as scabs then it is a workers struggle (even if there are racist mutterings), if it's them being hired on lowered wages then you argue for a demand of equal wages regardless, a strike demanding a ban on hiring of immigrants would be just plain racist and would deserve no support, infact it should be resisted. If it's just about them being hired period then it's out and out racist and as such any decent socialist should have no time for it. If that means losing mates or face in the workplace then so be it, your allegiance is international not to the reactionary whims of your immediate workmates.

ticking_fool
Posts: 553 Joined: 12-03-05 Location: UK, Liverpool
16 February, 2007 - 13:10
Quote:
It's not a question of supporting their demands, but not alienating them.

Yeah, but as revol's pointed out not standing in unambiguous solidarity with the group under attack (which would mean crossing the line if they're crossing the line), is far more alienating to that group than telling your racist workmates that they're talking shit.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 13:12
madashell wrote:
revol68 wrote:
stop twisted shit, it's not a matter of people being a bit racist ffs. You think there weren't people on the Posties Wildcat who held vaguely sectarian views? It's a matter of the issue, is it in itself racist and the like. For example workers walking out because the Union Flag is not being displayed, do you support that? Do you fuck!

It's not a question of supporting their demands, but not alienating them. And as ticking_fool already said, once people are out on a racist picket, it's a question of the best way to admit defeat.

And what about the alienation of the immigrant or black workers? They never chose it, they are being forcifully alieanted by the racist scum and for socialists to come along and have a wee cosy chat with bigots instead of standing side by side with them is galling. Afterall the immigrant workers don't have the luxury of being able to even engage the pickets, more should they fucking have to defend themselves.

Jason Cortez "Wrong on all the crucial issues"
Posts: 1474 Joined: 14-11-04 Location: Deptford, South East London.
16 February, 2007 - 13:27

i'm with revol here,it's basic princples. If your in a situation, say building workers striking to stop the employment of mirgant workers because they are undermining pay and conditions if you join the picket line and arguement that the bosses are at fault, you are still de facto supporting class divisions and sanctioning the indigenous workers organising against vulerable migrant workers. The only choice that is consistant with libertarian communism is to cross the picket line after arguing your point of view.

Steven. ""Best hair at Unison conference""
Posts: 1857 Joined: 27-06-06 Location: London
16 February, 2007 - 13:40
Jason Cortez wrote:
The only choice that is consistant with libertarian communism is to cross the picket line after arguing your point of view.

I think if you cross it you'll have a harder time arguing in a potential later strike over class demands if you say "never cross a picket line."

Also would you cross if it's a militant line trying to physically hold you out? What if police are needed to get you through?

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 13:46
John. wrote:
Jason Cortez wrote:
The only choice that is consistant with libertarian communism is to cross the picket line after arguing your point of view.

I think if you cross it you'll have a harder time arguing in a potential later strike over class demands if you say "never cross a picket line."

Also would you cross if it's a militant line trying to physically hold you out? What if police are needed to get you through?

Again this overlooks the position of the immigrant workers? They don't have a choice? Do they refuse to cross a picket line and strengthen a stike aimed at driving them out?

Furthermore if you don't cross the picket line where does that leave you standing with the immigrant workers in later struggle?

Regarding the police, well so fucking what? That's the kind of issue relevant to punks. Afterall would you refuse to support those black kids going to school in Alabama on the basis that State Troopers were used to hold back pickets? And I hate to draw comparisons between Holy Cross and Alabama (mostly cos every chuck on the planet was doing that to present the situation of catholics in the north as being like blacks in the Southern States circa 1960) but in the case of Holy Cross the police and army protected the wee girls going to school and I have to say partof me smiled when a copper broke some loyalist bigots fucking arm.

john
Posts: 881 Joined: 09-07-06
16 February, 2007 - 14:08
John. wrote:
if you cross it you'll have a harder time arguing in a potential later strike over class demands if you say "never cross a picket line."

then doesn't this illustrate the unhelpful nature of universal mantras?

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 14:13
john wrote:
John. wrote:
if you cross it you'll have a harder time arguing in a potential later strike over class demands if you say "never cross a picket line."

then doesn't this illustrate the unhelpful nature of universal mantras?

yeah, i mean never cross a picket line is just a slogan, it's even 90% true but I'd like to think that working class people have abit more savvy about them than to think in some sort of Punk Rock Kantian manner.

I mean have you never pushed your way past a religious picket line? How about picket lines around abortion clinics or sexual health centres?

posi "shake in your boots bureacrat......."
Posts: 501 Joined: 24-09-05 Location: London
16 February, 2007 - 14:14

Revol is totally right. There is a massive difference between a strike on a class demand, with a bit of racist rhetoric around it, and an out and out racist strike. One which pursues a racist objective. You want the objective to fail. All things being equal, crossing the picket line will help it fail. So you should be prepared to cross.

Of course use the opportunity to talk to those on strike if you can. Of course, and don't demonise them. But it's not OK to out and out support them just in order to get the opportunity to chat! Quite surprised that anything else is even being contemplated.

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 14:16
posi wrote:
But it's not OK to out and out support them just in order to get the opportunity to chat!

Good thing nobody said that then.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17817 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
16 February, 2007 - 14:18
madashell wrote:
posi wrote:
But it's not OK to out and out support them just in order to get the opportunity to chat!

Good thing nobody said that then.

Sorry standing on the picket line or rather going on strike with them is for all intents and purposes supporting them.

madashell "KSW, LOL"
Posts: 3113 Joined: 19-06-06 Location: Merseyside
16 February, 2007 - 14:22
revol68 wrote:
Sorry standing on the picket line or rather going on strike with them is for all intents and purposes supporting them.

I'm not suggesting that we stand shoulder to shoulder with people on racist pickets, just that crossing the picket line would be a mistake. I'd consider standing away from the main pickets and leafletting if it wasn't just me, but there's an obvious difference.

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