Teachers and Class

It does seem like you have no real idea of what 'middle' or 'working' class is except some arbitrary lines drawn in the sand. The problem is that not only are these lines complete fiction when drawn against real situations and real people, but that they are meaningless in even a theoretical way.

There is no consistency to (for example what John pointed out), or in saying that how working class you are comes down to birth, because some of the biggest arseholes in the business world came from down and out roots. Over here Sir Alan Sugar, Richard Branson and a host of less well known faces are among the wealthiest in the world and cause more damage than a teacher could manage in a lifetime. Roman Abramovich, one of the world's wealthiest men, came from nowehere in deepest poorest Russia. Kruschev himself was the son of a fucking peasant farmer. On the other side, Peter Kropotkin, Mikhail Bakunin, and Emma Goldman came from extremely wealthy backgrounds, and are some of the most celebrated figures in the movement, forming the backbone of its theory and indpiring some of its greatest heroes. Durruti himself was a highly skilled worker who in todays terms had the capability to earn as much as any teacher.

Ok, I have been all over the place a bit, point taken. Instead of arguing more I am just going to go by the lines, hoever arbitrarty they may be, that if you are a professional you are middle class and shouldnt be part of day to day anarchist organizing unless a group I am in or I feel that this person is somehow worthy of it. If not I will just choose not to organize with em. Furthermore, I think you can be middle class if you were born working class but you will always have that class as a cultural background which will make you more palatable than a straight up middle classer but still middle class....and I will just go from there and you folkz can think whatever makes you happy.

come to england anarch, so i can introduce you to reality.

Does it hurt a lot?

Check this out:

http://www.openlyclassist.org.uk/archsub.html

Look under 'Letter From America'.

Hahaha! Fucking classic! That wasn't you who wrote this was it, Anarch?

NO!....er, that is...NO!!!!!!!!!!!

.....um, yeah I wrote em a bunch of e-mails over like a period of months, and then they collected them all and put em on this page like exclusiveley to make fun of me....christ I love the internet.

anarch you are fucking lame.

look on the bright side, your famous

did they ever answer your emails or just keep collecting them? it is funny but i think its kind of mean too.

Here's something funny.

They have a 'northern Ireland' section to the site. It has positive articles on three people there

1. Student and later MP

2. Student and later a journalist

3. Student and later a lawye

So Anarch I'd get out a great pinch of salt and reconsider some stuff

Plus Howard Slater talks a lot about situationism, post-media, experimental music elsewhere than openly-classist. Dunno what he does as a job, but culturally his interests are exactly some of the stuff that Class War opposes.

They never answered any of my e-mails and I actuallt sent those to a few different adresses as I guess they are also in Ireland and stuff. ANd then they put up the page, and sent me an e-mail telling me I was middle class and that while they were not going to tell me what to do that I should find a new hobby. So I felt sad and middle class and whined more here. But that is largely what I do anyway. I dont blame em, I mean, they did what I would have done. Well, except for the page thing..

"anarch you are fucking lame."

Yes but so fashionable"

humph

if i were you, i'd want to kick the fuck out of them for being so patronising and not bothering to reply even when you are talking shit. which you were but saving the emails and putting them on a webpage, whilst funny, is mean.

just cause they've got the working class flag flying at the top of the mast doesn't make them any less prats.

I dont know, I really kind of admire them, in a sick desperate way. If they would let me I would ptobably join em, but as it is they think I am a middle class dick and so I will stay here and whine...or come to England and whine....whatever.

considering what utter shite the majority of the stuff openly classist come out with is, you should consider the fact that they go to the trouble of taking the piss out of you that much as a complement and the first step towards getting a decent class analysis.

Anarch - they're a group of about 2 crazy weirdo. Do you think OC are some huge group too? (Like when you told me you though Class War had over 1,000 members? )

And I knew you dropped out of college to not be middle class - but you later denied it!

I never denied I dropped out of college to be middle class...or at least I dont remember that. But I did I suppose.

And I do think that I am less middle class cuz I dropped out of college. As it is I have no degree and no outside money and obviously do not stand with my realatvies pollitically. And since I am willing to see their positions sacraficed I hope I have come closer to a class war anarchist persepective on things, which is a lot different than being a middle class college graduate with money and stuff.

anarch, openly classist are not bloody god. stop worshipping people. they don't have the answers, there is not some working class temple. and theres not a test which involves dropping out of college and getting a job in a chicken plucking factory which initiates you into the inner circle..

i'm almost beginnning to feel you don't really think these things and you are just taking the piss.

have you asked your parents btw, whether they are willing to see their positions sacrificed? don't their opinions matter cause they don't run some wanky prat website with the magic word "class" plastered all over it.

do you have a thermometer in your room marked social class which goes down to working class when you drop out of college and up to middle class if you drink a latte?

i'm not trying to be mean but you are really infuriating sometimes. are you taking the piss? in which case, brilliant.

I am not entirely sure why everyone is convinced I am joking, but please believe that I have more respect for all of you than to argue things I did not believe for thread after thread just to annoy you. And while OC is not god, someone has to have the answers and they might have some of them. And I dont really care whether my family is willing to give up its position anymore than I care whether Bush or my boss is. It is immaterial.

Anarch, how did you become an anarchist? Did you win a competition or something?

anarch, if you want some weird quasi-religious sect, as openly classist are, can i suggest you become a shaolin monk instead? this offers many advantages over openly classist:

a) more than 5 people in the world take them seriously

b) despite being a religion, they are several thousand times cooler than oc

c) despite being a religion their class analysis is several million times better than oc's

d) if you are dedicated you will learn kung fu, which would be useful in general life

e) should you decide to be a sell out in later life, instead of being something wank we'll hate you for, you can get a career in the artial arts film industry and i for one will think you are awesome

f) if nothing else, they have better dress sense and hair styles. than the entire anarchist movement.

Or more likely....lost.

Genius generation, genius.

Surely Anarch you can see that what is irrelevant is what you choose to call yourself. Deliberately being poor is more patronising than the worst government decree, because it fails to understand that most people don't want to be poor.

It would be like me chopping off my knob to try and be more feminist. It helps no-one and misses the point, which is that you are capable of using your capabilities to good effect and supporting the left regardless of how middle class your roots are or your job is.

Sure you'll be first against the wall if you are a teacher deliberately pushing the right wing agenda or the boss of a major company, but I'm not going to shoot a guy or gal who is just doing their best and happens to have a job controlled by the man.

Lol yeah well you realise that now.

You still haven't cleaned up the mess in the Freedom office

I dont think I would last very long as a monk, I am uncordianted unathletic and generally not very good at meditation and shit...I twitch a lot.

I dont want to be poor. It is more that I personally feel that being middle class is immoral and so I want to avoid that. And I get why it is a little patronizing but I cant really help it. For one thing I am really not that intelligent or clever at all and I doubt I would have made it through college even if I had tried.

And I still say that if class agression dosent involve threatening mc people, at least with loss of power and property, than anarchism is totally toothless and generally absurd. The end goal has to be concrete and come with violence or else it will probably just be some silly hippy thing

.

The end goal is concrete and no-one has said that the middle class won't be made to give up stuff if that becomes necessary, but that's not quite the same thing as calling every individual within the middle class an inherent counter-revolutionary.

Also, violence for the sake of it is nothing to be lauded. Violence when necessary, not before, not after.

Of course violence is not good for its own sake, but I think we need violence for the revolution, period. I think a revolution where capitalists and cops are not killed off, at least some of them, will not work. I guess there is no harm in holding out for the possibility but you may as well hope that Santa Claus comes along and eats the opposition, its just not happening.

And I still think that in most cases middle class people are inherently incapable of revolutionary action because of natural self interest for their lifestyle and property, but as some people here are teachers and housing officers with no apparent damage to their value as anarchists, I suppose I could be mistaken on the assumption that absoulutely every middle class person is useless. But I am willing to bet that most of them are.

So I suppose I am down with some collaboration if there seems to be any point, like if the mc person in question is seemingly a commited anarchist. Just as long as we all realize where people come from and are ready to do what we need to in a revoltuionary situation. I hope we expect this of all of our comrades. If I was starting to waver and think about fighting for my familys interests in a revoltuion or defending their house and cars, I would want one of you to put a bullet in my head.

But not before OK

no offence anarch but i think you have serious self esteem issues and your perceived middle classness is another way of beating yourself up.