What is it that makes work so shit?

alienation is at the core of it: the lack of control over the conditions of your work. lucky me, if money grew on trees, i'd do something like what i do for work. but there is another level of alienation, the superior-inferior relationship created by my contract. boredom and worthlessness can be cured by doing something you're into, but being into it won't cure the fact of dependency.

really, probably a ton of reasons. at least some of which could be abolished. some of which may not play in certain workplaces.

boss issues, lack of control, alienation of the worker with their product/service, forced to work at a job you have no interest in whatsoever due to economic circumstances, feeling like you're giving your life away when you'd rather be doing something else... besides, there's also simple pressures of certain jobs (sometimes too much), and that some jobs are just downright... unpleasant. i mean, it's hard to find a fun and interesting way to clean a toilet (but i'm open to suggestions).

lem your posts are the hardest work i've ever encountered in my life.

I thought, for you, that was chatting up oriental girls??

I see you have just hit the 10000 post mark btw - according to Refused that wins you - a date with Revol68 - shouldn't be too daunting that..

Besides i like lem - always have - may be a bit obtuse but his heart is in the right place and there is no poster like him.

Lem i think work is generally shit cos of the dependency and anomie combo.

Love

LW X

That is nothing like work....

I'd imagine it'll be the best date I've ever had, atlast someone on my level.

I don't think you meant this.

lem work is shit because you have are not in control of what you are doing and you are isolated from the products of your labour.

Hopefully in a communist society we'd not feel this way because any obligation would be based on principles of mutual aid and because we'd be able to choose and vary our work more and lots of annoying jobs would disappear.

Revol if you go on a date with yourself I'll be halfway to believing your claim about getting the bitches.

or an anarchist society or a mutualist society...

alienation isn't just lack of control over the work but also the way the work is organized, the way jobs are defined, what tools you work with, the amount of work, what products you are making, it means your work life isn't your own, and isn't owned collectively by you and your workmates either. and stress and subordination have something to do with it too. and lack of opportunity to learn things that might be more interesting. and that may not exhaust the list.

t.

i know for university essays your encouraged to reference everything you write but on here and in life in general you can have an opinion on something without needing to.

Lem and Jef

Shit!! I have just looked up the definition of obtuse and its main entry is along the lines of "slow, lacking in intellect and discernment!" Urgh no - that is NOT what i meant - at all!! Really sorry lem - i meant what is obv. the subsidiary use of the term - where it says "blunt, lacking in focus" etc etc - meaning you do not always get to the point - at least straight away. I did NOT mean the slow and stupid stuff - at all!! Obscure would have been a better term.

I am really sorry lem - i grovel in mortification!!

Love

LW X

any job that anyone can do is not utterly depressing though. Although lots of types of work are shit its not work itself thats inevitably shit. i agree with what others have said about why work can be shit but for the first time ever in many years and a long list of different jobs, i have a job i enjoy. its repetitive at times, but i have to learn stuff constantly and its challenging . i'm not my own boss and i think the management is pretty crap but i'm amazed that i'm actually happy at work now. i work for citizens advice bureau doing advice stuff and debtwork. i get to meet some inspiring people like the 22yr old who wanted to know what he could do about the shit repairs service on the estate where he lives, for everyone not just himself.

i learn stuff quickly and i think i'm good at getting on with people and give a shit about what happens to people in this society. if thats what i have i want to use it usefully. my job is the perfect outlet for me to share that and when it works, theres an opportunity to empower people so that when they have the information, they can sort shit out themselves. people are often resilient and endlessly courageous even when life is absolute crap. i respect the skills and knowledge they have and what i learn from them.

after years of hating work and feeling like i didn't give a shit, i do think now what i do is worth something and because thats important, it connects me to what i do for money. i don't have control but i care about the process and the 'product'.

Hmm,

Work is shit in a vast variety of ways.

Alienated labor, one of the fundamental relations of capitalism, implies that one's work will be seperated from one's social being. The development of commodified labor power implies that this labor power will be developed against the proletarian in an ever-widening variety of ways, limited only by the capacities of human beings.

By the very variety of this experience of alienation means that control-systems (or bureaucracies or whatever) created to removed this alienation inherently fail. Whether this is "quality circles" or music on the job or gatorojinegro's parecon schemes, these may address one or another particulars of alienated labor but leaves the basic problem intact.

I think the question of whether someone understands this can be a useful division point between two different kinds of politics - the politics supports of communism versus the politics of "self-management" (what I think Theorie Communiste calls self-organization).

Communism is not a utopian scheme but rather the creation of the human community in as direct a fashion possible. It is not subject to being specified as "worker's councils" or "neighborhood committees" or whatever. It certainly arises within the present, capitalist world but must either expand or become emeshed within the control dynamics of capitalism.

So I'd say this a good topic and a good opportunity to look more closely at these distinctions (which I would say are the most crucial "dialectical" aspect of a Marxian analysis, for all those who hate dialectics).

Best,

Red