What is the nature of the universe??

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Lone Wolf
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Dec 4 2006 06:11
John. wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:
But energy HAS been proven to exist, no???

Are you joking? Why are you telling me this? As I've said several times, of course I know this.

Yeah we both know it and we both know the other person knows it..smile my point was as below..

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This was not said by you atm as relating to strings but as relating to energy per se..

Nope, it was quite clearly related to a theoretical form of energy, such as that posited by potential UFTs.

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But in the quote i am on about (the post at the bottom of p1 btw) you don't relate it clearly or otherwise in that post.. But as i have acknowleged, you went on to clarify

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LW, I didn't make any typo, or say anything wrong at all. I referred to "theoretical things like a form or energy [strings]".

But when you said the above quote at the time you said it you did NOT put the string bit in brackets after it. At that time. Had you done I would have known what you meant. But you didn't.

No I didn't because I thought it was obvious.

Not to me..

It didn't have to be there though for the sentence to make sense,it's not my fault if you misunderstood it.

Ah the arrogance of the academic mindset...roll eyes its like "you should understand what i mean, I shouldn't have to explain myself.." To me we are not talking about faults here..and if i ask you to clarify something btw it is clearly cos i value your viewpoint or i wouldn't bother..

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hey I don't mind that!! I just didn't like the initial sarcasm or lack of graciousness re: my apology (when someone has admitted they are wrong you don't fail to acknowledge that and then raise their mistake again.. roll eyes )

No I appreciated that, thanks, but after that you still then said I'd said something wrong (made a "typo"), when I hadn't.

Yeah sure not a typo - you just assumed i knew what you were referring to and i didn't..

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and your inability (unlike me) to admit you made any mistakes at all...

I'm happy to admit my mistakes; I didn't make one then though.

Covered above - not a mistake on your part so much as a lack of clarity from you and a lack of understanding from me..

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At that time you didn't add in the string bit to clarify what you meant when you referred to energy..and you still haven't acknowledged that whether it is consciousness OR intelligence being referred to neither are purely human characteristics..you dealt with this by talking of the diff. levels of awareness..

:?

I don't know if some animals, like monkeys, are conscious,

well obviously they are conscious unless they are dead or in a coma.. tongue heh! black bloc i guess you mean capable of consciousness ie being aware of what is happening to them in terms approaching what a human could recognise..a very good point..I would probably say they understand more than most peeps realise..may start a thread on this as I am aware this could easily drift off-topic.. I have a moving anecdote (oh no - an anecdote!! eek) I could kick things off with..

but I do know that subatomic particles can't be. And like I put in my example above (mentioning strong and weak nuclear forces) which you didn't address,

Ouch!!!! I have already stated I do not have the knowledge to debate this with you so it is REALLY mean of you to say I didn't adress this when I have already said I couldn't...were you being deliberately mean here or had you just forgotten i had said this???

the idea that UFT means there's "universal consciousness" is meaningless, because there's no difference from that pov whether there's a unified theory or not.

Understood. To be fair, I did say either/or.

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so what happened in both cases is you expanded what you meant to clarify your intentions. When you did so what you said was accurate and made sense. But your original general sweeping statement didn't. Why can't you just admit this?

Like I said, if it was wrong I'd admit it. But I would never say that energy doesn't exist, because i'm not thick.

Covered already - I hope!

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but it annoys me when people tell me I said things which I didn't, especially repeatedly.

But I didn't do that!!! I quoted you directly.

Er, no you didn't - you just said that "energy is not a theoretical thing..it has a reality..it exists.."

If I didn't quote you directly then I am sorry - like I said earlier it was at the bottom of p1.

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But you were not clear in what you originally said.It WAS inaccurate.

Covered above.

Hopefully, yeah!!!

Love

LW X

SatanIsMyCoPilot
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Dec 10 2006 12:04
Lone Wolf wrote:
SatanIsMyCoPilot wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:
Why are we here??? wink (Meaning of life also - VFM thread..)

I finally made it to the end of Hegel's Phenomenology a month or so ago, so I have now seized the Notion, I have arrived at Absolute Knowing, and I am now at one with the mind of the universe. I just rock so much

grin

So do you know next weeks lottery numbers now then???? cool

Heh!! Oh dear I would like to call you Hegel Boy but Revol already has ownership of that title...

Do I ask too much if I suggest you summarise your findings in a short post for us mere mortals??

Love

LW X

Yup - if i tried to summarise it (and I have done - I've made a few attempts at mapping out what's going on in the book, none of which were particularly pretty) I'd reveal just how little I understood it. Hegel is hard; top quote from Arthur Schopenhauer (not a big fan of Hegel), who complains about young minds "strained and ruined in the freshness of youth by the nonsense of Hegelianism.”
He writes:

“…the greatest effrontery in serving up sheer nonsense, in scrabbling together senseless and maddening webs of words, such as had previously been heard only in madhouses, finally appeared in Hegel. It became the instrument of the most ponderous and general mystification that has ever existed, with a result that will seem incredible to posterity, and be a lasting monument of German stupidity.”

MalFunction
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Dec 15 2006 11:56
Quote:
Stardust may be basis of life on Earth

Alok Jha
Friday December 15, 2006
Guardian Unlimited

Comets could have brought the basic ingredients of life to Earth, scientists revealed yesterday.

The first analysis of samples that Nasa's Stardust mission brought back to Earth from a comet earlier this year has revealed that comets contain a richer range of ingredients than previously thought, including the complex molecules needed to kick-start biology.

The findings will force a re-evaluation of the traditional thinking on comet formation. "We think we know what these things are made of and then suddenly we find that, no, we don't," said Monica Grady, an astronomer at the Open University who worked on the Stardust samples.

Nasa launched Stardust to test the standard concept that comets are just dirty balls of snow left over from the early solar system. It was sent to examine the comet Wild 2 in February 1999.

The probe flew through the tail of dust and debris the comet had emitted and, after travelling 2.88bn miles, returned to Earth earlier this year with a payload of thousands of tiny particles from the comet.

The results of the first investigations of the trapped dust were presented yesterday at the American Geophysical Union's autumn meeting in San Francisco and simultaneously published in the journal Science.

To their surprise, scientists found a huge range of minerals in Wild 2. In particular, the samples showed evidence of aluminium- and calcium-rich minerals that could only have formed at very high temperatures, presumably close to the sun.

Donald Brownlee, an astronomer at the University of Washington and the principal investigator for Stardust, said the traditional ideas that comets were made in isolated parts of the outer solar system would need revision. "As the solar system formed 4.6bn years ago, material [must have] moved from the innermost part to the outermost part. I think of it as the solar system partially turning itself inside out," he said.

Wild 2 also seems to have some of the complex organic molecules that could be precursors to life.

"It's a fairly widely held belief that comets may have played a key role in delivering organics to the early Earth and played a role in getting life started," said Scott Sandford of Nasa's Ames research centre, who led one of the research teams.

When the Earth first formed, it would have been a molten body so hot that any organic materials already present on it would have perished. Any complex organic materials made in space would have had to arrive on the young Earth well after the planet had cooled down. "A lot of our findings support this interesting idea, which is that comets played this key role," said Dr Sandford.

"We don't know how life got started on the Earth. But one would presume that the more complex the things you drop on the Earth, the easier it might be for life to get started. We know that comets and asteroids deliver this sort of material."

Of most interest are the types of organic molecules seen in laboratory simulations of the early solar system, in which scientists irradiate ices containing dirt and dust. These produce a lot of organic compounds including amino acids; Wild 2 seems to contain similar molecules.

Dr Sandford said: "The possible presence of this material in the comet is exciting because it suggests that many [more] of these kinds of compounds that are biologically interesting may well be there."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/space/article/0,,1972954,00.html

(one up to Joni Mitchell then - see lyrics to "Woodstock")

redtwister
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Joined: 21-03-05
Dec 21 2006 20:33
SatanIsMyCoPilot wrote:
Yup - if i tried to summarise it (and I have done - I've made a few attempts at mapping out what's going on in the book, none of which were particularly pretty) I'd reveal just how little I understood it. Hegel is hard; top quote from Arthur Schopenhauer (not a big fan of Hegel), who complains about young minds "strained and ruined in the freshness of youth by the nonsense of Hegelianism.”
He writes:

“…the greatest effrontery in serving up sheer nonsense, in scrabbling together senseless and maddening webs of words, such as had previously been heard only in madhouses, finally appeared in Hegel. It became the instrument of the most ponderous and general mystification that has ever existed, with a result that will seem incredible to posterity, and be a lasting monument of German stupidity.”

on Schopenhauer, I am content to agree with Goergii Lukacs in The Destruction of Reason, ch. 3, which I happen to be reading at the moment:

"In criticizing Hegel without knowing him even superficially, Schopenhauer was once again a forerunner of bourgeois decadence. It seemed that when it came to opposing the class enemy, no holds were barred and all intellectual morality vanished. Scholars who were conscientious in other areas, only venturing to express themselves after accurately digesting their material, now permitted themselves the most facile assertions, which they had gleaned from other, similarly unfounded expressions of opinion. Even when presenting facts they never thought of resorting to the actual sources. This further helps to explain why the ideological struggle against Marxism took place on an incomparably lower level than did, in its own day, the reactionary irrationalist critique of Hegelian dialectics."

Chris

MalFunction
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Jan 31 2007 10:20
Quote:
No Big Bang? Endless Universe Made Possible by New Model

A new cosmological model demonstrates the universe can endlessly expand and contract, providing a rival to Big Bang theories and solving a thorny modern physics problem, according to University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill physicists.

The cyclic model proposed by Dr. Paul Frampton, Louis J. Rubin Jr. distinguished professor of physics in UNC's College of Arts & Sciences, and co-author Lauris Baum, a UNC graduate student in physics, has four key parts: expansion, turnaround, contraction and bounce.

During expansion, dark energy -- the unknown force causing the universe to expand at an accelerating rate -- pushes and pushes until all matter fragments into patches so far apart that nothing can bridge the gaps. Everything from black holes to atoms disintegrates. This point, just a fraction of a second before the end of time, is the turnaround.

At the turnaround, each fragmented patch collapses and contracts individually instead of pulling back together in a reversal of the Big Bang. The patches become an infinite number of independent universes that contract and then bounce outward again, reinflating in a manner similar to the Big Bang. One patch becomes our universe.

"This cycle happens an infinite number of times, thus eliminating any start or end of time," Frampton said. "There is no Big Bang."

An article describing the model is available on the arXiv.org e-print archive and will appear in an upcoming issue of Physical Review Letters.

Cosmologists first offered an oscillating universe model, with no beginning or end, as a Big Bang alternative in the 1930s. The idea was abandoned because the oscillations could not be reconciled with the rules of physics, including the second law of thermodynamics, Frampton said.

The second law says entropy (a measure of disorder) can't be destroyed. But if entropy increases from one oscillation to the next, the universe becomes larger with each cycle. "The universe would grow like a runaway snowball," Frampton said. Each oscillation will also become successively longer. "Extrapolating backwards in time, this implies that the oscillations before our present one were shorter and shorter. This leads inevitably to a Big Bang," he said.

Frampton and Baum circumvent the Big Bang by postulating that, at the turnaround, any remaining entropy is in patches too remote for interaction. Having each "causal patch" become a separate universe allows each universe to contract essentially empty of matter and entropy. "The presence of any matter creates insuperable difficulties with contraction," Frampton said. "The idea of coming back empty is the most important ingredient of this new cyclic model."

This concept jolted Frampton when it popped into his head last October.

"I suddenly saw there was a new way of solving this seemingly impossible problem," he said. "I was sitting with my feet on my desk, half-asleep and puzzled, and I almost fell out of my chair when I realized there was a much, much simpler possibility."

Also key to Frampton and Baum's model is an assumption about dark energy's equation of state -- the mathematical description of its pressure and density. Frampton and Baum assume dark energy's equation of state is always less than -1. This distinguishes their work from a similar cyclic model proposed in 2002 by physicists Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok, who assumed the equation of state is never less than -1.

A negative equation of state gives Frampton and Baum a way to stop the universe from blowing itself apart irreversibly, an end physicists call the "Big Rip." The pair found that in their model, the density of dark energy becomes equal to the density of the universe and expansion stops just before the Big Rip.

New satellites currently under construction, such as the European Space Agency's Planck satellite, could gather enough information to determine dark energy's equation of state, Frampton said.

A copy of the paper may be downloaded at http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0610213

http://www.physorg.com/news89399974.html

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little_brother
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Jan 31 2007 16:40
Lone Wolf wrote:
Hi peeps

Do any of you agree with Unified Field Theory..as some physicists are starting to...that all matter is connected etc etc...and/or that a univeral intelligence pervades everything, you know, a bit like the force in Star Wars...

Love
LW X

Well if you mean is it plausible that all forces (and matter) in nature can be described in a single mathematical theory like string theory I'd say I am happy enough with the possibility, or something like it. 3 of the forces (electromagnetic, weak, strong) have already been unified and these come together with gravity to form the Standard Model of cosmology.

[If you go back a little further (1891) electricity and magnetism were unified into the theory of electromagnetism - the beginnings of unified field theory. This is why most physicist put Maxwell top of the table above Newton and Einstein).]

SM fits with the Big Bang idea that the forces and matter start from a single point of nothingness - but there is no edge to this expanding universe because space-time itself is created in the expansion (something known as a 'boundless' system). The idea is that very early on in the BB expansion the energies were so great that the separate forces can be described as one, with most forms of matter not yet existing e.g. no atoms existed until the universe 'cooled'.

[aside: the particle accelerators at CERN and elsewhere aim to generate a fraction of this energy to check the theory, but this becomes more and more difficult e.g. search for the 'Higgs Boson' is one current endevour which is the particle that could get gravity properly into the model, and if the SM is correct, it effects should start to be detected at a high enough energies].

It makes no sense in this theory to consider anything outside this universe, even though it is finite in terms of amount of matter etc.

... and nothing to do with intelligence or 'the force' sad

There seems no harm in imagining other universes, but I think I am going to try and stick with changing a small part of this one.

PS VP is going to have to plant a bloody rainforest to offset that one.