what strand are you?

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Bubbles
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Jan 20 2007 09:21

*I hate most people in the english speaking part of north america who call themselves anarchists.*

I usualy find myself describing my politics as wobbly, libertarian communist, labour anarchist or (mumbling under my breath) anarchist.

The only thing my politics revolve around are Direct Democracy and economic/social equality. I'll join any org anywhere witch I think can achieve this.

I've read many differant working class revolutionary libertarian left books, pamphlets etc. and think they are all worth folks time.

My acceptance of groups depends on the current situation in the "groups turf". I may support a Platformist group in one area of the world or the creation of one or I may think its pre-mature or rediculous in another.

Anything that isnt a membership organization with dues, referendum, ballots, elections etc. I usualy find my self calling it a poorly-organized cadre organization. Ive found many people who consider themselves anarchists in the US calling me controlling, too structuralist, workerist, too concerned with acountability etc.

I like anyone who is called a trot by anarchists and a anarchist by trots.

I'm against anarchists with-out adjectives but for the collaberation of all directly democratic revolutionary working class organizations. I think the with-out adjectives orgs can only agree on breaking things under spray painted banners and dancing in the street with face paint while the cops beat the shit out of all the people of collor.

I think orgs like food not bombs and other charity orgs like it end up trying to make capitalism worker friendly not abolish it and replace it with a worker run society.

I'm not opposed to taking a insurectionalist stance on certain issues or in certain situations but I think that it is most likly doomed from the start in the US due to the lack of the ability of american radicals to behave properly in a millitant street protest(we cant even defend our own demos). I think only past union gun fights and black panther related stuff where periods where insurectionalism was possibly sucessful because this insurrection grew out of the mass membership organizations of the working class.

I think unions are just one of many tools at the working classes disposal but not always the most important.

I think that each catagory of the working class will be interested in differant types of groups and for a revolutionary situation to happen in the US all of these orgs will have to work together.

I think what APPO did was brilliant and all revolutionaries in north/south american should take serious note. I thought they lacked in willingness to take up arms and/or more serious forms of defence of Oaxaca.

I suppose I'm a "big tent libertarian communist".

Wayne Price
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Jan 20 2007 19:08

Sticking to the topic: What "strand" of anarchism do I identify with. Let's see. I am on the side of the oppressed against the oppressors. I see the working class as central to a successful revolution, and therefore identify with anarchist-communist and anarchist-syndicalist traditions. But this is due to the strategic location of the working class in capitalist society--not to any moral superiority of the working class. Workers are not more oppressed than women or Gays or the Deaf. Since all forms of oppression prop each other up, it is essential to attack all subsystems of oppression at the same time.

I am for pro-organizational anarchism, which includes the tradition of Platformism, especifisimo, the FAI, Malatesta, and Bakunin. I do not regard myself as an orthodox Platformist and my organization, NEFAC, is not organized according to the structure of the Draft Platform--partially because we can use the Internet. I like to think that our structure has overcome the objections which Malatesta raised against the Platform. (However, he was critical of the Platform partially because he advocated an eclectic, synthesist organization--individualists and communists, etc.--which I believe was a mistake.)

I also identify with the humanistic and libertarian side of Marxism, and have been deeply influenced by CLR James, Paul Mattick, Sr., Cornelius Castoriadis. Having been a Trotskyist, I find that there are useful aspects of Leninism and Trotskyism in relation to theory, tactics, and strategy (not goals) which anarchists can learn from, if critically reviewed (I have been criticized for saying this). However, I do not regard myself as a Marxist because I think that Marxism as a total system is deeply flawed in several ways (as I have written elsewhere).

Other traditions which have influenced me include Malcom X, decentralism, radical ecology,and left Freudianism.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jan 20 2007 19:19
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I don't think my swipe was unnecessary at all. Like Revol and Pete, I was only responding to some rather bloated claims made by Rise and Dundee in this thread about how wonderful platformism is. I agree with Pete and Revol's earlier comments. And i've been annoyed by lots of posts by platformists and their treatment of people with different views that theirs on these boards recently.

Irony is a funny thing. You make a sectarian swipe against an entire tendency, and then you whine about different veiws being treated badly on these boards. Whatever.

Quote:
I really do think platformism is not very good at producing high quality theory, tends to fetishise the activity of their own organisation, has a somewhat crude understanding of current class composition, resembles some aspects of Leninism etc. You're welcome to dispute this, but please don't take it personally, it's not meant that way!

Okay, but I think you are making a complete caricature and I do indeed take it as uncomradely and sectarian.

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As for Berkman, it's fairly obvious he became a class war anarchist communist in later years. IIRC he called platformism anarcho-Bolshevism (but not completely sure about that), so to be sure i've searched for a quote and come up with this.

I never said anything about Berkman, but I do think he has alot of inconsistencies in his politics. On most points I agree with him, and some I don't. Do you really think an off-handed comment with absolutely no argument of substance behind it in a personal letter has some important insight to bring to the debate around platformism?

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thugarchist
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Jan 20 2007 20:59
Wayne Price wrote:

Other traditions which have influenced me include Malcom X, decentralism, radical ecology,and left Freudianism.

Left Freudianism? Other than Lacan who does that include?

Skraeling
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Jan 20 2007 21:48
Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
Quote:
I really do think platformism is not very good at producing high quality theory, tends to fetishise the activity of their own organisation, has a somewhat crude understanding of current class composition, resembles some aspects of Leninism etc. You're welcome to dispute this, but please don't take it personally, it's not meant that way!

Okay, but I think you are making a complete caricature and I do indeed take it as uncomradely and sectarian.

It's not meant as being uncomradely and sectarian nor as a caricature, i'm just briefly stating some of my criticisms of platformism (i have many others) in response to Rise praising it to the skies that it is so amazingly wonderful and the "cutting edge of communist theory today" or something. Honestly, platformism, while i agree with some of it and see it has some strengths, just doesn't appeal to me for the reasons i list. This is not some offhand kneejerk response to it, but an honest assesmment of it after working with platformists, debating many platformists, reading Fontenis and the platform and Skirda and debates on the platform.

I'm not a sectarian in practice, i know a few platformists, they are good friends and i work with them quite well. in fact, i've formed quite a few groups with platformists.

Quote:
I never said anything about Berkman, but I do think he has alot of inconsistencies in his politics. On most points I agree with him, and some I don't. Do you really think an off-handed comment with absolutely no argument of substance behind it in a personal letter has some important insight to bring to the debate around platformism?

No of course not. I was just looking around for a quote to back up my claim that Berkman once said platformism was anarcho-Bolshevism.

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Devrim
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Jan 20 2007 21:57

For all that the Platformists talk about 'winning the leadership of ideas', they seem to get imensly wound up when people question their ideas. What with Joe Black retreating into calling everyone who disagrees with him 'hobbyists', and SRB just abusing everyone, one has to wonder how they react when they come up against Stalinists ,union bureaucrats, and others who disagree with them.

Devrim

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revol68
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Jan 20 2007 22:01
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one has to wonder how they react when they come up against Stalinists ,union bureaucrats, and others who disagree with them.

Get them off the shop floor by voting for them, pretty damn clever, the "leadership of ideas" isn't as daft as it looks.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jan 20 2007 22:05
Devrim wrote:
For all that the Platformists talk about 'winning the leadership of ideas', they seem to get imensly wound up when people question their ideas. What with Joe Black retreating into calling everyone who disagrees with him 'hobbyists', and SRB just abusing everyone, one has to wonder how they react when they come up against Stalinists ,union bureaucrats, and others who disagree with them.

Devrim

I have never had a problem talking politics civilly when there is mutual respect. That said, when people condescend to me or engage in sectarian mudslinging I don't have any particular interest in being nice. Anarchism isn't a social club for me.

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thugarchist
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Jan 20 2007 22:42
Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
Anarchism isn't a social club for me.

The amount of money you spend on penicillin would seem to prove this statement wrong.

Seriously though. I've never really understood the animosity towards the "leadership of ideas." You think you're right. You talk about it. You work with people who agree and put those ideas into practice. They work or they don't. Its common sense.

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Devrim
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Jan 21 2007 00:02
thugarchist wrote:

Seriously though. I've never really understood the animosity towards the "leadership of ideas." You think you're right. You talk about it. You work with people who agree and put those ideas into practice. They work or they don't. Its common sense.

I don't have any problem with that at all. My point was about how loudly those who claim to be 'the leadership of ideas' whinge when their ideas are questioned.

Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
I have never had a problem talking politics civilly when there is mutual respect. That said, when people condescend to me or engage in sectarian mudslinging I don't have any particular interest in being nice. Anarchism isn't a social club for me.

What do you mean by personal respect? I don't think that any of the communist left have personally insulted you (Revol doesn't count in this if he has. He is an anarchist.). Yes, we have said that your line on national liberation is anti-working class because we believe that it is. I don't think that that is in any way condescending, nor do I think that it is sectarian mudslinging. It is an honest confrontation of ideas. To me it seems to be the Platformists who have indulged in substituting personal insults for argument. If they were to say that the left communist line leads to isolation, and purism, which they have, then to me that is a valid political argument albeit one I obviously disagree with. However, to suggest that people you disagree with are merely 'hobbyists' (and I know that this is Joe Black's term, not yours, but a lot of your arguments have been similar) seems to be mudslinging to me.

Devrim

lem
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Jan 21 2007 00:21
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Anarchism isn't a social club for me.

grin I am worried that I only engage with people when I feel threatened - which is not very honest, but I can't help feeling your grasping at straws there.

For everyone here socializing with you (me, anyone..) is less important that politics. I do not imagine that you never socialize with people with similar political views to you. So why say something so daft?

Do you think that the "inactivity" of some people is distorting their beliefs and arguments? That if I were to join some group then I would see that you are correct?

A pointless ad hominem that calls for a ghetto - in which political people have forfeited the ability to socialize.

I don't quite know what you mean by 'social club', but when I was young I did note that most people would visit the local social club.

You sound like a retarded goth.

lem
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Jan 21 2007 00:22

What I mean to say, is that anarchism has nothing to do with socializing.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jan 21 2007 01:53
lem wrote:
Quote:
Anarchism isn't a social club for me.

grin I am worried that I only engage with people when I feel threatened - which is not very honest, but I can't help feeling your grasping at straws there.

For everyone here socializing with you (me, anyone..) is less important that politics. I do not imagine that you never socialize with people with similar political views to you. So why say something so daft?

Do you think that the "inactivity" of some people is distorting their beliefs and arguments? That if I were to join some group then I would see that you are correct?

A pointless ad hominem that calls for a ghetto - in which political people have forfeited the ability to socialize.

I don't quite know what you mean by 'social club', but when I was young I did note that most people would visit the local social club.

You sound like a retarded goth.

Uh... I don't really know what you are saying here. What I meant was that I don't view the anarchist milieu as a place to make new friends. Most of my friends wouldn't identify as anarchists, at least not in a movement sense. There's plenty of anarchists that I do have tons of respect for and get along really well with, but for the most part I don't care if I am popular in my arguments among other politicos. I want to see a serious movement develop around our ideas, and try and engage people on that level. Whether or not they are my friends afterwards isn't especially important to me.

lem
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Jan 21 2007 03:30

However I read that it strikes me as a bit weird.

As an excuse for being rude to people it amounts to saying "Because I don't like you".

As a political statement, you see to think that you are the only "politico" worth knowing (but you can probably guilt trip others into working with you either thru the power of ideas, or sheer charisma).

I think you should lay off the steroids! As then you may relaize that life tends to go a bit smoother if people like you confused

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thugarchist
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Jan 21 2007 03:42
lem wrote:
However I read that it strikes me as a bit weird.

As an excuse for being rude to people it amounts to saying "Because I don't like you".

As a political statement, you see to think that you are the only "politico" worth knowing (but you can probably guilt trip others into working with you either thru the power of ideas, or sheer charisma).

I think you should lay off the steroids! As then you may relaize that life tends to go a bit smoother if people like you confused

Are you going to cry or something?

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Lone Wolf
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Jan 21 2007 04:02
thugarchist wrote:
Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
Anarchism isn't a social club for me.

The amount of money you spend on penicillin would seem to prove this statement wrong.

Ouch!!! grin

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Jan 21 2007 04:05
thugarchist wrote:
lem wrote:
However I read that it strikes me as a bit weird.

As an excuse for being rude to people it amounts to saying "Because I don't like you".

As a political statement, you see to think that you are the only "politico" worth knowing (but you can probably guilt trip others into working with you either thru the power of ideas, or sheer charisma).

I think you should lay off the steroids!

grin The biter bit..

As then you may relaize that life tends to go a bit smoother if people like you confused

Are you going to cry or something?

Nah don't think lem is coming from a fragile place when he says that..

Reckon he is saying that it makes sense to get on with/have a good rapport with those you struggle/engage in political activity with.. and he would be right.

Love

LW X

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Jan 21 2007 04:12
Lone Wolf wrote:

Reckon he is saying that it makes sense to get on with/have a good rapport with those you struggle/engage in political activity with.. and he would be right.

Love

LW X

This isn't my experience actually. The people I agree with and work with politically I generally can't stand personally. The people I'm close to generally think my politics are weird. With the exception of some of the NEFAC folks those lines never cross for me.

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Jan 21 2007 04:40

As lem says I think that is kinda weird... but everyones experiences are different..and there are peeps i am friends with on these boards who i violently disagree with on certain issues..but i personally would find it hard to work with politically peeps i couldn't stand personally tho its hard to say cos that has never come up for me - kinda the opposite of your experiences really..but the point is still valid that it kinda helps if you "get on with" the peeps you organise with.. how do you manage your dislike of them i.e. do you just try and ignore those annoying aspects and then enjoy your downtime with your buddies??

Love

LW X

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Jan 21 2007 04:51
Lone Wolf wrote:
As lem says I think that is kinda weird... but everyones experiences are different..and there are peeps i am friends with on these boards who i violently disagree with on certain issues..but i personally would find it hard to work with politically peeps i couldn't stand personally tho its hard to say cos that has never come up for me - kinda the opposite of your experiences really..but the point is still valid that it kinda helps if you "get on with" the peeps you organise with.. how do you manage your dislike of them i.e. do you just try and ignore those annoying aspects and then enjoy your downtime with your buddies??

Love

LW X

I'm very polite when I'm busy and shit has to get done, then when its done I go and live my life. I find that when I do political work or even work work with people I socialize with it becomes tiresome.

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Jan 21 2007 05:39

Ah ok.. polite is good. cool

I still find it interesting that you find it tiresome to socialize with peeps you work or organize with... [psych. hat on] hey but best to leave it there... wink and I understand the "can't choose who you work with, can choose yer friends" type argument..

Love

LW X

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jan 21 2007 07:00
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Reckon he is saying that it makes sense to get on with/have a good rapport with those you struggle/engage in political activity with.. and he would be right.

I like to think that I have generally good relationships with the people I am active with in real world political work. What does that have to do with random people on an internet discussion board? I'd say at least 80% of the discussions on here are totally abstract and removed from reality (ie, not rooted in any actual practice), or else just straight up political pissing matches. Obviously I am as guilty as anyone else here, but I like to think I have some perspective of the actual importance of these discussions or my relationships with the people involved.

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Jan 21 2007 07:08

SMR

You misunderstand!! I was referring to IRL political activity and working relationships..not this or any other net board.. Tho of course there is a crossover - some of us do know/organise with each other IRL who post on here...

Re: the net culture btw - as you raised the subject!! You have a point about the abstract nature of most discussions - I am a big one for combining the theory with day-to-day life stuff AND don't do the pissing thing either.. tongue . so while these DO happen you can still post a lot and not fall into these traps..if you wanna..as i choose to as best i can..

Love

LW X

lem
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Jan 21 2007 17:00
thugarchist wrote:
lem wrote:
However I read that it strikes me as a bit weird.

As an excuse for being rude to people it amounts to saying "Because I don't like you".

As a political statement, you see to think that you are the only "politico" worth knowing (but you can probably guilt trip others into working with you either thru the power of ideas, or sheer charisma).

I think you should lay off the steroids! As then you may relaize that life tends to go a bit smoother if people like you confused

Are you going to cry or something?

Well, I'm always coming from a slightly fragile place grin But smash rich bastard's hatred toward me does not bother me because he has said that he hates all "polticos". Which is understandable.

I reassert that I think he's coming across as a complete goon. Is his hatred of almost all "politicos" a poltical point, or is he just a nasty little man?

Lol, what tossers! "I don't like you!". If anything THATS fragile - he wants to get the rejection in first.

lem
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Jan 21 2007 17:06

I suppose that its possible that he genuinely hates "politicos", but it doesn't make sense why he would want an anarchist society?

I is teh emo grin

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sam sanchez
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Jan 21 2007 17:24

"Revolutionary democratic socialist" would be enough for me if it weren't for the fact that this is this is generally taken to mean a parliamentary state with total nationalisation rather than a system of worker and consumer self-management through directly democratic workers and consumer councils. And "revolutionary democratic socialism-from-bellow" is a bit of a mouthfull.

lem
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Jan 21 2007 17:57

Oh yeah, what label to pin on me? - an-open-marxist-that-reject- all-their-ideas-and-is-actually-a-left-communist-posing-as-a-marxist-anarchist. Just like it says on my profile page grin Nah, like, I gave up following "sectarian" debates a while ago so I couldn't say.

Big up solfed btw @

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Jan 21 2007 18:39
lem wrote:
I suppose that its possible that he genuinely hates "politicos", but it doesn't make sense why he would want an anarchist society?

I is teh emo grin

He's one of the most dedicated, solid, trustworthy anarchists I've ever met.

lem
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Jan 21 2007 18:40

So... yeah I suppose it must get annoying to work that hard and yet see everyone else sitting on their arses.

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Feb 7 2007 18:01
JDMF wrote:
anarcho syndicalist through and through.

But am heavily into enviro/animal/earth first/eco/tree hugging/gerbil bullshit as well.

Not all workers are employed in a factory.