When White Males Attack: Larry Flynt, Racism and The Left

random wel thats the trouble isn't it, sexuality is far to complex to make absolute anouncements on. It is very hard to tell if someone is actually enjoying what they say they are. perhaps they feel like they are suppoused to be enjoying it and so don't feel comfortable raising objections. But believe me this can be the case with men as well. I could go into personal shit about my own relationships but apparently thats me cock waving or trying to display some sort of sub cultural status . But yes there have been times when a girl has said she wanted to do stuff which I didn't think she was really comfortable with, there have been times I have tried futily to pschyo analyise the root of her sexual preferences. All i managed to do was to make myself unhappy and make my girlfriend feel bad about herself. Now im just content to know that we both trust each other.

anyway enough of that emo shit.

back to the point about hollywood movies. well yes 90% might be shite but I cans till take some form of enjoyment out of them, just cos Black Hawk Down is a racist apologism for US militarism doens't mean to say it isn't beatifully shot or even enjoyable. Likewise im sure most people wh consume porn are quite capable of doing so without feeling the need to start hanging around girls locker rooms, becoming plumbers or calling women "cock hungry sluts" etc.

thats the nicest thing ive ever seen you write. makes you seem almost human.

problem is, the rape culture we live in (i assume you agree we do have a problem there) says different. im not saying that the average guy watches a porn flick and then goes out and rapes someone. clearly the problem of disrespect for a womans right to choose sex comes from all round us and not just from porn, but then isnt that partly because popular culture so often resembles porn? like, i wouldnt have a major issue with one music video portrayal of women as whores, but its in so many of the videos, and then its the ads in between (spray more get more), and then its in the daily newspapers, etc etc etc.

i do think that porn gives stupid and wrong portrayals of sex, and about women, and that these ideas carry over into the mainstream, and become accepted as truths. enough for our rape conviction rate to be as low as it is, because all women mean yes, even when they say no, and other such myths.

and all this talk about how we could make it all better just by making some "better" porn - if i said that you'ld call me reformist, wouldnt you?

Perhaps porn resembles popular culture?

pLus there is absolutely no proof that pornography leads to an increase in rape. Believe me I don't think Iran has much in the way of porn and the women there aren't exactly living it up.

The idea that rape conviction rates are so low because women in porn never say no is just daft. Thats like claiming gbh conviction rates are low because of the antics of Jackass or Dirty Sanchez.

The logic of your argument means we should be also calling for the banning of violent films, computer games or music. I mean i've played games where i can actually beat prositutes to death and steal their money, but i've never seen a porno with real "non consentual" violence.

As for making better porn being reformist, thats insane. It'd only be reformist if i thought there was something essentially wrong with porn. Just because i wish to see the end of sweatshops doens't mean it is reformist of me to want nicer trainers in a post capitalist society.

i dont think so. do you, really? maybe theyre both feeding off each other now, but i reckon that the worst of it started with the mainstreaming of porn. for example, breast implants and the surgical creation of prettier labia (dont know what its called) started in porn but have carried over into mainstream popular culture.

im not saying that. im saying that our popular culture resembles porn to the extent that a common portrayal of women that we get from it is woman as whore. its not just the porn itself, its the way everything else seems to be influenced by it.

ive played lots of gta too. but i did find that i couldnt enjoy the latest one like i did the others. it just fucked me off. before that, i either didnt care or later i thought of it as all ironic. but it doesnt seem ironic any more. much as i didnt particularly like or dislike eminem until his latest, because i had previously taken him as a send up. in both cases the huge sums of money being made have tainted the irony, and both seem to be actively pushing what they once mocked. or maybe its just me that thinks that?

in any case, im now playing tiger woods. and pissed because all the womens moves are shit and we get no cool breaking or popping. there is no end to the feminist cause, and i shall be emailing e a sports to demand better celebrations and clothes for wimmin players.

but i thought you were talking about the creation of better porn in this current society, not in a post capitalist one. so i misunderstood your argument.

well yes i would also like to see more varied and interesting porn in the here and now. It's hardly reformist to wish to see better things under capitalism. Fortunately capitalism is a sneaky wee fucker and has lost no time in finding a market amongst those bored and frustrated by most porn and hecne we are beginning to see more and more sub cultures and tastes being catered to. Of course it's still capitalism and it's still shit but it's not exactly a crime to enjoy things produced under alienated labour, otherwise we'd just be bored whining fuckers.

And i always make my golfer in tiger woods a woman, same with Tony Hawks. And my woman is always the coolest, best dressed biatch on the course/skate park.

This has been a really interesting thread 8)

I'd like to add that I'm not personally too comfortable with drawing links between porn and rape. I understand what random is saying about certain mainstream pornographic portrayals of women spilling over inot the mainstream and infuencing the current rape culture (and I'd like to remind people of the appauling 5.3% conviction rate of reported rapes, which, if you include the very high number of unreported rapes, means you're practically guaranteed to have no punishment for raping someone).

I don't deny that mainstream portrayals of both male and female sexuality have a profound affect on the levels of rape, sexual abuse etc, in one way or another I'd say it's the most important factor, but I don't think porn in and of itself is particularly important.

However, I think that ideas of male and female sexuality are socialised pretty much from birth, and condition a general acceptance of women as victims who need protection and men as predators who can't control themselves which imo naturalises rape "cos that's just human nature, innit?". I think it would be impossible to pick apart all of the cultural elements which lead to rape as it's so complex, but it's safe to say that ideas of gender from all manner of sources - from family structure to work to art to fucking snuff movies and everywhere in between - in many ways legitimise and apologise for rape, it would be too easy to single out porn in itself as a major factor, cos I think it's far, far deeper than that.

In the last year or so I've found myself to be severley emotionally triggered by scenes of rape or sexual abuse in movies/tv etc, and in this time I've realised not only that I just can't watch films anymore (fuck going to the cinema in case I have to bolt half way through)I've seen literally hundreds of "rapes" on screen since I was really, really young. I remeber a thread a while back when we were trying to think of interesting films about women that specifically didn't feature rape or sexual abuse in the story line, and we pretty much drew a blank. There's so much fucking rape in movies you might end up thinking that it happens to women all the time! Oh, hang on a minute....

edit - not trying to pick a fight with anyone, just adding thoughts 8)

See, mitch?! I told you he wasn't a cock-waving mysoginist!!!!

you all wanna get some excellently dressed avatars - check out the RPG vampire:masquerade/bloodlines.

zobag, with you on the movies front. i find it difficult to get in to loads of stuff these days.

revol, was thinking about the trainers analogy, and i dont think its quite the same, because when you wear your trainers at worst you're totally ignoring how they were made and the exploitation involved. but with porn theres actual pleasure being taken in it, which seems to me to be at least a bit worse?

[OT how do you make your golfer well dressed? the choice is so crap for women. capri pants ffs! my woman has the biggest arse youve ever seen and pink hair. shes great. ive never created my own skater on TH, just played the ones there. but i havent played any of the underworld ones.]

re.

saw amelie mentioned here before, and that hasnt got sexual abuse in it, just a scary stalker..

most rape/abuse in movies bothers me because its not identified as rape/abuse. i dont mind a realistic portrayal, like in kids, because i think there needs to be some gruesome realistic non glorifying movie rape scenes out there so that people are aware of how fucked up and common it is. sounds ridiculous, but honestly, im shocked by how easily some people dismiss rape, "its no worse than getting mugged" please fuck off. (noone here, heard that from other places).

i cant even be arsed with stuff like that recent pitt/jolie movie, i saw a clip of them beating each other up with the usual no injury marks, and frankly i wish hollywood would fuck off with their "domestic violence is so sexy" bullshit.

do you think the person watching porn sits there wanking, thinking about how the girl in it is just trying to make ends meet, that they are drug addicts, that they have emotional issues. I'd seriously doubt it. What is being enjoyed is a fantasy, not the actual production process. If that was the case then porn would include the breaks where the woman puts and ice pack on her vagina and loads of other reality checks. Just like trainers we put it too the back of our minds, if we even think of it at all.

Twitter - I got one at home called Cotty. Cotty frequently makes me laugh like a 'hysterical' loon!

'I have heard the Mermaids Singing', Patricia Rozema style - one of my favourite films.

http://www.patriciarozema.com/ive_heard_the_mermaids_singing.htm

Hollywood is fucked on the representation of women full stop - and frequent tittilating rape scenes or sexual abuse I cannot watch neither.

I go to the films and film makers who explore passionate love in relationships - like 'Sex and Lucia' by Julio Medem.

And I like the films of Jane Campion - particularly an early one of hers call 'Sweetie'.

On Porn, I have watched some recently with Cotty from his collection. This turned into somewhat of a comedy with me blurting out comments every 5 seconds like -

Jesus H, have you ever tried to make love in six inch spike heals, or flippin heck those earings are a health hazard,

but on some of it, Cotty has said 'look she's really enjoying that', and I've said, you bloody idiot, that's painful and like Revol says, will be needing the ice pack.

I know many couples who watch porn together and get turned on by it, it is part of their relationship. I also know of some interesting all consenting local networks and they get off on taping each other.

Not my bag But all is safe and consenting so who am I to judge on these local networks of people who all know each other?

Perhaps we should be focusing on attacking the industry, and how the industry exploits.

Sex without love though doesn't float my boat, never has, never will. 8)

only a cretin imagines workers control to mean isolated industries continuing to run the existing means of production. Workers control is a pre requisite for communism, and historically once the means of production have been seized they have been radically transformed.

and any chance of a response to my post. I think you owe me one considering the bullshit position you painted me as having.

To be honest libcom forums might have a bunch of gobby cynical fucks on it but you come across as a self righteous ole prick. Then again you are a north american lefty.

Actually, I read the whole thing, from beginning to end, as is my habit. My point is that the industry is by default somewhat different in the way that blackface or minstrelsy was particularly different. It was not that racism did not permeate other forms of entertainment, but that this was a form of entertainment predicated on the systematic degradation of Black people. That's part of my argument regarding porn, that it is NOT people having sex, but "men fucking women into suordination". Could you film sex otherwise? Sure, and people do that sometimes, but the vast bulk of the porn industry is simply not that (and if it was, would still be wage-labor of course). Maybe that is some of the appeal of amateur porn, but that is sort of like a cottage industry, the Linux of porn. I won't list specific sites, but having researched it, I can always send you a couple sites that are archetypal (amazing what you find downloading free music and books from peer-to-peer, the quantity of porn is exceptional.) Anyway, the point is that porn is predicated particularly on the denigration of women. That any act of denigration also denigrates the perpetrator comes into play and the men who do this are also reduced to a single appendage (hence the reason that porn is full of ugly motherfuckers with big penises, aside from the fact that most men can fantasize that it is their dick easier if the guy is not too pretty.)

And if it isn't about denigration, why don't we see more porn with guys with normal sized penises? Why the huge penis thing? You're not watching SEX, you're watching the largest possible penises shoved into whichever orifice. Frankly, in that respect, porn has gotten worse since the early attempts to go mainstream before getting blocked by the big Hollywood studios.

Actually, I think this is rather wrong. First of all, sex plays a particular role in the reproduction of labor power and because it is associated with both a specific form of waged and unwaged labor, and now with porn that waged and unwaged component come together in a virtualized sexuality. The best intra-porn comment on this is one of the few porn films I recommend, a wickedly intelligent movie call Cafe Flesh.

Second, porn doesn't sell you sexual excitement. It sells you virtual sex in general predicated upon a specific debasement of the body into isolated parts and the particular debasement of women as the fucked object, and far too often the object of other levels of violence (having little of nothing to do with S&M or B&D, btw.)

Ok, do you think this is possible in this society? Again, there is that sort if Linux Porn. What is more interesting to me is the spectacularization of sex and sexuality and the turning of sex into one of the hypnotics of the spectacle. These days, with Men's amagazines what they are, the line between Maxim and Playboy is quite slim. Unlike random, I really do think that porn is mainstreamed and that porn is merely the highest expression of a general sexualization of commodity production and marketing.

It doesn't need to be the majority. I have no doubt it is much les common today that 30 years ago in the US and Europe. But it is still a part of the industry. The use of illegal women, and taken as a global industry, it is still extremely common (see Asian porn industry for example, in Thailand, Singapore, even Vietnam.)

Beyond that, no one said 'bag on sex workers.' Rather, the problem is to grapple with the particularities of porn. Here it may be useful to get more facts and figures, rather than to go on about stuff. What is the percentage of violence, disease, etc in porn compared to other jobs women can take?

Why is the internalization of capitalist power relations bullshit? You think you are free from it? That I am? That anyone is? Your desire to consume guilt free is interesting. After all, quite correctly, it is impossible to consume very much in this society not predicated on exploitation. Do we then celebrate it? I would think that we rather recognize that sad state of affairs as the reason we need to overthrow capital, not as an excuse to consume product which are not only exploitative but overtly misogynist and part of an industry that is incredibly racist and denigrating to the human body as well (denigrating by way of making a fetish of specific body parts, of a virtual cutting of the human being into abstract pieces.)

Would you consume racist filth featuring Black people, just because some of the Black actors chose to take the job because it beat their other choices? The complete and total evasion of the particularity of the specific oppression of women dazzles me. Its like "Hey man, exploitation, that's OBJECTIVE, but oppression, well that's SUBJECTIVE. You can tell me I'm exploited, but not oppressed." Not like i have any interest in telling people whether they are exploited or oppressed. Either they feel it or they don't. Our job as communists and anarchists is NOT to tell people they are exploited and oppressed. If we have to tell them, they aren't going to listen. Rather, it is to help clarify how and why when they begin to see themselves as exploited and oppressed, to give them some means to make sense of it and show how it doesn't have to be that way.

As for what is twisted and perverted, my assumption is that liking this society, being normal, being at peace with it, is what is twisted and perverted, and everytime we make some concession to it, we suffer damage. Beyond that, I have not made any comments on the psychology of particular sexual activities. No interest in that at all. I have no ranking system of 'healthy or unhealthy' for people's sexual proclivities. As I said before, it ain't about your sex life because porn ISN'T ABOUT SEX. You wanna pretend it is, go for it. For me, its about a specific form of commodity production and waged-labor predicated on a specific kind of degradation of women. In that, porn really is more like blackface and minstrelsy.

As for consensual, that's crap. The very structure of contemporary capital is the demand for our consensual participation in our exploitation and oppression. That's why I raised the problem of the subjectivization of people, who ought to have "choices", just utterly forced choices that make us choose the terms of our exploitation and oppression, but which deny the meaningfulness of refusal. That why "choices", "empowerment", "diversity" and all this other liberal shit is also th mantra of corporate HR departments and managers.

If the porn as industry has grown so much since the collapse of the last social movements, and has grown so massively in a general period of backlash against the gains of the women’s movement, then it is very important to look at the relation of the two. Putting the matter as guilt-free consumption of a commodity does nothing of the sort.

So again, I don't care what you do on your own time, or what anyone else does on their own time. I am interested in porn as an industry, as a particular exploitation of female labor in degrading ways (regardless of whether or not the women enacting those roles feel degraded in their labor, much as I don't care whether a factory worker or call center workers 'feels' particularly degraded in any conscious fashion), as a way of reproducing labor power in response to the end of the old structures of family and man-woman relations in the aftermath of the 60's and 70's social movements, and in the ways that its specific labor processes particularly denigrate the human body, but with specific emphasis on the objectification and cutting up of the female body.

Chris

ok, what about sim porn? theres tons of it on the net.

not that i looked

Actually, I think porn does resemble pop culture in a lot of ways. The massification of women as sex objects is huge in current US culture. Mass media and entertainment in this country at least is basically one long promotion of women as sex objects to be consumed by men. Porn is only a slightly over-the-top version of it from the point of view of the consumer, though from the point of view of the laborer, it does involve a rather different kind of labor (I will again assert that there is something qualitatively different about posing in your skivvies on the front of Maxim versus getting fucked by 6 different people, all of whom were expected to end with jizzing on your face. I still assert that doing such things with people for a wage, as something you simply do irrespective of whether or not you like it or the guys with whom you do it, is not the same thing as putting the same part into a circuitboard 14 hours a day. That does not mean someone might not choose the one over the other and find it personally preferable.)

On the problem of images, we are literally bombarded with images and they have a profound impact. It is especially huge on kids and I see it impact my kid, who is inundated with shit. If you think that it doesn;t impact adults, I think that's nuts. Really nuts. Does that turn us into rapists? Dunno. It does seem to work in making us consumers,and if that image bombardment did not work, why would advertsising and adver-tainment be such huge, massive industries? Why would they have worked so hard to co-opt sixties slogans and catchphrases? This stuff does not create commodity society, but it is one of the means used to tie us to it, so why pretend that playing a game where you slap women around to get more points just ain't healthy? Hey, maybe at 23 your consciousnes is fully molded and final, but for the kids who play this stuff, including the teenagers, it is reinforcing and gnerating mysoginist attitudes and practices.

The interesting thing is the disjuncture between the real improvements for women since the 1960's, and the uncompensated for loss of power of men over their lives. The same frustrations are there, but now they have to manage them without the buffers of a domestic servant, with a wife or girlfriend who may work as much or more, expect far more (and maybe still not enough) in terms of child care and housework. Without the end of capital, how much are men responding with anger and resentment? Methinks quite a lot. On the other side, independence is not being treated as sexy, but as selfish or as threatening, for the most part, and so to see submissive or objectified women might be somewhat comforting, since actual sexual relations, esp among grown adults and in long-term relationships, are substantially more complicated these days. How much of this is compensation for the fact that this society offers no healthy means of expressing or dealing with sexual conflicts or relationship conflicts, thwarted desires and impulses, etc? More and more, exactly as they are pathologized, relatively understandable feelings a person has over these desires are socialized as a disorder, instead of as a completely normal, accetable set of responses or feelings that people just deal with. Then they can sell you a drug or a service or some porn or a video game to turn you into a passive who is more and more isolated in a virtual world revolving around the computer, the Gamecube, the TV, the psychiatrist couch or the doctor's office. Whether or not its good for you, its great for the market.

And Revol, i suspect you think this is psycho babble, but in spectacular society, to not grapple with the ideal and imaginary, with the symbolic, is IMO a huge mistake. Otherwise, at least here, you won't get a handle on the transformation that racism and sexism have taken and why Bush has so much grass roots support.

I would expect that rape conviction rates have never been high, but are they worse tody than 30 years ago? The treatment of women as an object permeates all of capitalist society, though not in some of the ways it used to. Now it is an ideology of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" or sociobiology on men's natural need to rape to reproduce or some other shit (and that's from the liberals). Do you think that porn, the bulk of which degrades women, is an antidote to that? Completely indifferent to it? Porn isn't teaching men how to feel about women (mostly that happened long before porn becomes accessible to us, through the family and school and other friends' families), mostly it is supporting it and reinforcing it, just like the vids you are playing. Maybe you don't tke it that way, but then agin, you also think that voting is crap, right? But what about people who don't think it is crap? Or who don't think it is wrong to 'slap a bitch'? for you, what you ignore or treat as over-the-top nonsense for them may be affirmation.

In the end, the question is not to ban porn or outlaw prostitution. I am for the decriminalization of prostitution (less state control) and I am against the sexualization of all aspects of social life and the commodification of all sex. However, I can't imagine that porn would continue to exist after the abolition of capital and oppressive an alienated sexual relations only because I have a hard time finding a way of formulating porn positively in any way that looks like what porn is today. Undoubtedly, people will share nudies with each other, may even film each other, may even film themselves or others doing stuff, but the idea of it being an industry specifically produced for mass consumption, focussed on gential penetration (at least for het and gay, if not lesbian porn), jizzing on the face, calling women names, slapping them around, having 20 strangers jizz on you, etc etc,well, that seems unlikely to me. Doesn't mean people won't DO IT, but an industry of mass production of it for mass consumption of it? Just really hard to imagine. I hope at least at that point that people will instead, like Revol's trainers say, "just do it".

Nuff. I'm done. I understand what Revol and others are saying and while I don't agree with the way of posing the problem and in some places am geuinely opposed to a certain way of discussing the topic, I will now exercise the better part of valor and shut my yap.

Chris

Hmmm not wanting to derail the thread, but the conviction rate rapes is very low because the legal system, being nice and liberal (in a good way) is based on the presumption of innocence, and proof beyond all reasonable doubt. In most cases of rape it ends up one person's word against another, and if there's no evidence of a struggle (skin under fingernails, bruising etc.) then with one person's word against another there's no way they can convict. And presumably you wouldn't want them to, do you? To get rid of the presumption of innocence?

Having said that, you're not "practically guaranteed to have no punishment for raping someone", cos if it's not a date rape situation, or one where you can easily argue it was consensual, or presumably if you get marks of a fight then you'll probably get done, no?

???? Of course I do!

Prostitution's a different kettle of fish, but yeah people have always liked seeing other people fucking, and some people have always wanted to be watched, fucking. So yeah of course regardless of my views I think it will continue under workers' control.

TBH redtwister I cannot understand your viewing of porn. It seems like what you get more it says more about you than its actual content. I've watched a bunch of porn (usually with girlfriends) but don't just see a subjugated woman being degraded, it's just two (well, mostly ) people fucking and getting filmed. Maybe the only porn you've seen is really fucked up stuff, I dunno

Catching up with this thread, but ffs!

This is one of those things that's annoying. What is really said here is that maybe I just see sex as exploitative or I just see the bad stuff. Maybe you don't see how you relate to women and sex or maybe you only watch the more feminist-inspired porn? In either case, I really couldn't say. that doesn't mean that porn isn't appealing, anymore than suburbs are necessarily ugly. Attractive, pushing the right buttons, well done, etc (like Revol's comments on Hollywood flicks) is key to the business. Most porn doesn't make me want to run away, but either makes me laugh or it does what it does to most people. I also occassionally like a Big Mac or a Whopper or smoking, but that doesn't make them good or healthy, does it? A world without cigarrettes and fast food would be a better place, though people might still smoke some things and most definitely will still eat. They just won't do it in a really unhealthy, absuive way.

How about an experiment? Surf the web for porn sites, then throw in searches for Latino, Asian, Black or interracial porn. see how much that comes up is totally fucked up. then go into a porn shop (and not some liberal-feminist place in San Francisco.) Pull youself out of watching it for fun and enjoyment, and actually distance yourself from it. Watch the positions, the differences between how men and women are deployed, watch to see who has orgasms, where, and on whom. Try to actually think about, instead of just sitting in front of it uncritically. Go to a porn shop and look at what they actually have (and again, maybe th US is just that much worse), what it projects, what it appeals to, how it is marketed, etc.

Chris

Hey, wasn't this about Larry Flynt and racism? Does anyone any longer have any doubt about Larry and Hustler? I mean except those people buying it strictly for the porn, not the articles or cartoons...

??!!

so many things to respond to just in this bit...

perhaps (again) your system is different - but in the US, the rates for conviction of rape were anomalous - at least with juries, who have an overwhelming tendency to convict no matter what the charge, except with rape charges, when the overwhelming tendency is to acquit...

and fyi where i come from, there ain't no fucking "good liberal." (as in, ewwww, bleeagh, blech, gross...)

So redtwister - i'll come back on that other stuff in a bit - what do you think about what I said re: porn + workers' control? I mean I think amateur porn now shows that people *do* want to make it

I'm not saying I want the presumption of innocence to be done away with, that'd be fucking stupid. But it would also be really niave to assume that courts in England are nice and fair and completely unbiased when it comes to rape situations.

Even in a situation where there has been a fight, with physical evidence (you know, "proper rape", where you get attacked by a rabid stranger in a deserted allyway and immediately decide it's in your best intrests to try and physically fight them off you, the way it shoud be done...), judges will still rake over your past sexual history, the amount of alchohol you've had to drink, how short your skirt was, etc etc. My mum was dealing with a case two years ago where, despite overwhelming physical evidence that the teenage girl in question had had the shit kicked out of her and was suffering from lacerations and had strangulation marks on her neck, the guy gets off because - and I swear I'm not bullshitting - she had been wearing jeans, and it would be impossible to rape someone who was wearing jeans.

And I would still say that yes, it is practically guaranteed that a rapist will get off charges. Technically, there's a 94.7% chance of it (and ok, so there may be a handfull of false accusations, but I'm pretty sure these are pretty rare), and that's only assuming the person you raped reports you to the police and decides to take things to court. And even if you still assume that if there's physical eveidence the guy will go down (which just doesn't stand up to close inspection, unfortunately), you're forgetting that date/acquiantance rape is by far more common than "proper"(not your words, I know), violent, attacked-by-a-stranger rape, and as you say ids very hard to prove in court.

So, I still argue that generally, if you rape someone (especially if it's someone you know, preferebly someone you've had sex with before, who'se had an active sex life, wears skirts and drinks alcohol), then you will get away with it.

Sorry for pointing people in the direction of the guardian, but this article does a fantastic job of explaining how our "nice and liberal" legal system is deeply flawed when it comes to rape trials:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1539646,00.html

redtwister I have absolutely no doubt that the vast majority contains some fucked up subtexts on gender relations (fuck even race relations eg titles like Yellow Fever for porn woith asian women). My argument is a) this is not an argument against porn anymore than Vin Diesel is an argument against movies. b) surely we should be looking at trying to allow alternative pornogrpahy some space, a space for multiplicities of sexuality ot be explored. c) Even in regards to most mainstream porn, i think people are much more nuanced at watching and interpreting it, I've wanked to some ridiculous shit but an able to detach myself from it. I know that it isn't "real sex" (whatever that is, i'll leave it to the essentialists to decide ).

know that im not likely to meet someone who wants 7 guys to come on her face, and to be honest I wouldn't want to. I can stand back and distance myself from porn and think "fuck this shit is ridiculous" but when we actually stand back and think about sex in a rational manner we could probably come to the same conclusions.

Your points about focussing upon specific body parts are valid criticism of porn (i especially hate this obsession with close shots) but I fear that it gets close to essentialism. One could sit and deconstruct shoe fetishes but really who the fuck would want to, and what purpose would it serve, espeically cos I imagine it represents many different thinks to many people and often contrictary thinks to the same person.

I don't beleive we can have a pure untainted sexuality, Im rather more interested in allowing every sexuality the chance to express itself (aslong as it remains consentual). I think there is great dangers in pathologising peoples sexualities, by trying to give a marxist critique of S&M or Scat or whatever other shit people get up to.

As for porn being related to rape, i think more of our everyday sexual experiances have more parralels with rape. The lights off, him on top and her "doing it for him", like it's a duty. Porn on the otherhand is often premised on the women being hypersexual, it could be seen as an alienated attempt to bridge the contradiction of women having to be available for sex, yet at the same time they shouldn't be enjoying it.

Anyway this whole debate is really false cos it comes down to me understanding porn as an essence, of sexuality represented through media and others equating it with it's appearance in an exploitative hierarchial society.

Hey thanks for the replies. I really am dropping out tho, because I want to practice what I preach (no, not to watch porn!!!)

I really think that in my last two replies the answers to Revol and John's questions are there, if only implicitly.

cheers,

chris

And a nod to random and Wendal, who had the fortitude to stick to their guns in spite of apparently being 'frigid, sex-hating, authoritarian femiNazis'

Chris

except thats wank, no one accused them of being frigid, what we did accuse them of was patholgosing peoples sexualities.

I like how you raise your subjective interpretation of a very narrow type of porn into some sort of historical truth. It's about as useful as denouncing music cos of britney spears.

Do you accept that porn is in it's essence representations designed to arouse?

Do you think porn by it's nature as a representation is the hyper specularisation of sex?

Do you think that Dworkin and MacKinnon were right to push through their ordinance. An ordinance they were well warned would be used to persecute gay, lesbian and queer porn?

Whether or not some twat whose read to much situationists see's porn as the ultimate commodification of sex is not the issue. The issue is about whether individuals have the right to make that analysis themselves.

nope, will back revol up on this one. noone said that. i thought it was quite a dignified civil conversation. random, myself and revol actually managed to not rip each others faces off for once. was interesting too...

8)

no, noone used those exact words. but revol did mention something about anti sex uptight feminists... and john did mention puritanical anti sex feminists... i cant be bothered to go past page four.

and its not all been on this thread. those anti sex and repressed jibes have come out here before. not feminazi, yet, but its probably only a matter of time. there have been anti feminist comments made.

its like when you made the generalisation about all feminists being porn obsessed lucy, and zobag has said before that radical feminists put her off feminism. these are dangerous things to say when people are reading/listening who dont know much about feminism, and who trust and respect what you both say. i think sarcasm, irony, and exaggerations, are all quite dangerous online on a political board.

revol, that goes to you too. there are obviously people here who actually look up to you, and sometimes maybe they take you seriously when you dont mean them too. i think you need to be more aware of that.

dont get pissed with me for saying that you three. im not trying to be horrible. i just think maybe people in positions of respect should be a bit more careful when theres a danger theyll be misunderstood about important things.