Why DO so many lame men rely on prostitution and porn in order to "connect" with women/their sexuality..

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Lone Wolf
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Dec 13 2006 05:38
Why DO so many lame men rely on prostitution and porn in order to "connect" with women/their sexuality..

Hi peeps

OK, lets go for it!!!

Why IS prostitution the oldest profession??

Why do such a substantial minority of men find themsleves unable to engage sexually or emotionally with a woman unless it takes the form of an upfront financial transaction (as opposed to the "subtler" variety.. young women marrying rich old ugly guys etc etc - alto this IS a related issue)

In what ways and how has our society produced such a number of sexually, socially and emotionally inadequate and illiterate men)???

(To clarify - I am not talking here about men who have limited experince of visiting a prostitute - as an adolescent rite of passage for example - but those who appear unable to function without these visits on a regular basis and who appear unable to engage in a meaningful relationship/sexual encounter...)

Why are some men SO terrified of women they can only engage with their sexuality via porn (Again - to clarify - this is not referring to otherwise functional men/women/couples who use this occasionally..before I get the "enjoyment" argument or the "more and more women" one..Besides, it was feminism that spoke in a meaningful way of the need and ability of women to enjoy sex not the flipping commercialised sex industry...!!!)

Why why why......I have some theories... tongue

And just to fling this into the mix.. remember the thread on drunken "consent" to sex.. someone gave a link which had a great quote along the lines of.."The real question we should be asking is why so many men want to have sex with drunken, comatose women lying in a pool of vomit.." Good fucking question!!! It is always the women whose behaviour is questioned, never the men.. I think both Arf and RedTwister made this point before or backed me on the point I made..

But yeah.. prostitutes etc do so to earn money and because there is a DEMAND!!

Why is the demand so great????

Why are so many men sooooo lame??????

And what solutions are there??? (Temp. one perhaps, before the Revolution.. wink )

For example what do peeps think of "john schools" - it seems that a minority of men CAN be educated.. obv, drastic measures are needed with the dyed in the wool misogynists etc who will abuse the women badly..for example when a few middle-aged men have it pointed out to them that their daughter could fall into the position of prostitute -and be hurt badly - that tends to broaden understanding..it helps to bring home to them that these are real people they have been using..(and no, this doc I saw - a moral stance was NOT being taken so much as a reality check one...i.e this is what this business is REALLY about)

Over to you peeps

Love

LW X

powertotheimagi...
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Dec 13 2006 08:06

I suppose they go for different reasons, but alot I would say would see it as a powertrip, 'i've paid so i'll do what I want' type of thing. I'm sure there is some relation to commodities and all that but i'll leave it to someone else, I just think most of the people are lacking something in their lives and so need to assert some power oversome else (and this dosen't always need to be in a sexual context).

ticking_fool
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Dec 13 2006 08:29
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but those who appear unable to function without these visits on a regular basis and who appear unable to engage in a meaningful relationship/sexual encounter...

From what I've seen, and obviously any research on this is going to be a bit dodgy, this isn't the demographic. It isn't people 'unable to function normally', sad ass bastards in plastic macs I guess, it's ordinary people in relationships and out of them with 'normal' sex lives. Anecdotally and superficially, living in an area where prostitutes work (there's a 'curb crawlers will be prosecuted' sign right outside our house), this seems to be true of the clientelle I see. You get posh cars and clapped out bangers, tracksuit and trainers and shirt and tie.

The question isn't 'what's wrong with these fuckers', the question is 'why is this ordinary'? The radfem analysis of heterosexuality as a system of power is extremely persuasive here, and is the only analysis I know of that's prepared to accept the extent and 'ordinariness' of abuse, but there are serious problems with it. It's either based on a monolithic idea of 'ideology' which can't account for differences in reception and interactions with competing or complimentary doctrines, or it gets stuck with the idea of 'privilege', which is again based on universalising a very narrow white middle class experience. These problems mean that while I think the analysis has some merit, when put into practice it ends up doing some pretty dodgy shit (treating cottaging and soliciting as part of the same problem, or attacking sex-workers groups and unions and so on).

So while I think there's milage in seeing the dominant idea of male sexuality as about the fetishising of power difference, it's not an adequate description of what's going on. What would be though, fuck knows.

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Steven.
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Dec 13 2006 09:46

Aren't most men who use prostitutes married or in relationships already? (Rather than say being "social inadequates"/really shy who can't get laid or whatever) And I'd imagine for them it's mostly for some sort of power trip.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 13 2006 09:57

i think it may have something to do with the fact that a lot of blokes find it easier to think clearly with their dicks than their brains!

But yes, i'm sure some sort of desire for power and control over others as a substitute for the lack of power over their own everyday life probably plays a large part for some.

also i dont get this "too shy to speak to women who arent willing to sell themselves" stuff, surely if you were shy you'd have quite a job going up to a women and giving her money for sex!?

fruitloop
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Dec 13 2006 10:07

The original question seems pretty damn loaded! I mean, prostitution has been around for a fair old while now, and it's not the sole preserve of social rejects to use money and power to get more sex. Given the atomisation of society and the amorality of capitalist ideology as regards financial transactions and what is and isn't commodifiable, it's not that surprising that men who have money and want sex are prepared to use the one to get the other.

Given that the average male falls into both of these categories most of the time it's mostly surprising there's not more of it.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 13 2006 10:31
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it's not that surprising that men who have money and want sex are prepared to use the one to get the other.

Given that the average male falls into both of these categories most of the time it's mostly surprising there's not more of it.

can we pressume that this is due to at least some men having a bit of moral rectitude and social conscience? hence not all men fetishise women to the point whereby they would be seen be a means to an end! I'm sure most blokes don't think "i could really do with a shag, hhmmm, wheres the nearest cash point?"!

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pingtiao
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Dec 13 2006 10:33

Fruitloop is right, the OP is extremely loaded and unsophisticated in its analysis of men's motivations, and collapses a multitude of possible and actual pressures into a single one.

I would imagine that for many men it is a method of assuaging their guilt while still managing to meet their biological/psychological urge to sleep with multiple women. Boredom with a partner or lack of sexual interest can be offset with what in many relationships leads to "cheating" with another woman in another relationship context- but they may perceive visiting a prostite as different.

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Dec 13 2006 10:41
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
can we pressume that this is due to at least some men having a bit of moral rectitude and social conscience? hence not all men fetishise women to the point whereby they would be seen be a means to an end! I'm sure most blokes don't think "i could really do with a shag, hhmmm, wheres the nearest cash point?"!

Hmm, I don't think prostitution has quite that level of moral stigma with most people (towards the clients anyway).

Honestly, I'd say that the stigma associated to the clients of prostitutes is usually one of sad innadequates who can't 'get' a woman without paying. Not that this is necessarily the case, but that's the way it's often shown in popular culture.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 13 2006 10:50
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Hmm, I don't think prostitution has quite that level of moral stigma with most people (towards the clients anyway).

fruitloop was stating surprise at why there wasnt more prostitution/use of prostitutes than there already is. I wasnt talking about the morals of clients but the general male population.

odd
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Dec 13 2006 10:56

i agree you can't pigeon hole,the why's,i mean who called it a profession in the first place.on an issue like this i could only speak,for myself.i ve been with prostitutes in the past for a variety of reasons,ranging from excitement,boredom,phsyical need,wanting to experiment/explore my sexuality.these are my reasons and others will have theirs,i never thought of it as a commodity as i was not aware of things like this until i was aware of political thought/theorys etc.
When i wanted to explore my gay side i was able to go to gay saunas where i didn't have to pay to explore things,perhaps if sex wasn't,so wrapped up in love,marriage,commitment,moral values,etc,there would'nt be the need or supply of sex services.

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 10:58
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
fruitloop was stating surprise at why there wasnt more prostitution/use of prostitutes than there already is. I wasnt talking about the morals of clients but the general male population.

Honestly, I don't see that there is a generalised moral stance against prostitution in most men.

fruitloop
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Dec 13 2006 11:03
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
Quote:
Hmm, I don't think prostitution has quite that level of moral stigma with most people (towards the clients anyway).

fruitloop was stating surprise at why there wasnt more prostitution/use of prostitutes than there already is. I wasnt talking about the morals of clients but the general male population.

Well yeah clearly there are a lot of men that feel that way, I wasn't trying to excuse the clients of moral responsibility or whatever. My point was just that if you take as given that even the most socially conservative, even outright repressive societies throughout history have prostitution, and then combine that with the historical trend towards a commodified sexuality from which we are increasingly alienated, a sexuality that's almost inherently for sale, then put it in the cultural melting pot with a kind of spectacular sexuality that originates in the media and celebrity culture, what you get is huge social issues around sexuality of which porn 'n prossies is very much the tip of the iceberg. It just seemed to me approaching those issues from the viewpoint of there being some lame (for which read 'old') men who aren't in touch with their sexuality, whatever that means, isn't gonna be particularly revelatory.

Grace
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Dec 13 2006 11:15

Yeah I do think the original question is a bit leading but probably just playing devil's advocate eh LW?

I don't think the stereotype of men who use prostitutes as unable to 'get any' or engage in relationships is entirely fair; as others have already said, a large number of clients are in relationships, and to be fair if you just want a shag it's not that difficult to get for most people, so I really don't think that in most cases it's a case of purely wanting sex or power since it's possible to get both without paying if one's that desperate. I reckon the aspect of "I've paid so I can do what I want" must play a role in the demand for prostitution, whether it's because of a desire for power or because of a lack of openness in relationships - perhaps if the guy's afraid of asking his partner to do 'unusual' things sexually or to have sex more often or whatever, for fear of rejection or causing problems in the relationship or something, whereas with a prostitute there's no emotional relationship to jeopardise and although I'd imagine most prostitutes set limits on what they'll do there wouldn't be so much fear of them not consenting since consent has already been bought. There must be a myriad of emotional issues behind it and more complex than men being power-hungry wankers, although that could just be me wanting to believe that men are nice really and in real terms I'm just speculating.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 13 2006 11:29
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Also I think considering the commodity society we live in, a better question would be, why do people still have issues about buying and selling sex?

If you have no qualms about people having to sell their time and labour in order to survive, having to act in a way that is a complete negation of what they want to be doing, having to repudiate their basic desires and be completely miserable in doing so then why would you object to someone selling their body in order to survive.

Is that what your saying?

powertotheimagi...
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Dec 13 2006 11:30

I think the sterotype is silly, its like the one of pedos hanging around childrens parks in macs and oversized glasses handing out sweets to kids. The truth lies closer to a huge social range of men, inc. your average DM reader, well who can blame them, conservatism dosen't seem to abhorent to paying for sex.

fruitloop
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Dec 13 2006 11:39

Personally I reckon there are elements in the new-ageish monogamy-oriented beautiful soul sexuality that seems to be the ideological norm for the under-30's that are just as reactionary as some Tory twat banging on about the marvels of family-centric Victorian social customs.

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Joseph Kay
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Dec 13 2006 11:42
fruitloop wrote:
new-ageish monogamy-oriented beautiful soul sexuality

whats that? it's triggering all my blind hatred keywords angry tongue

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 13 2006 11:44
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I mean the fact that mothers send their darling sons off to the wholesale slaugther of war raises less eyebrows than if you sent your daughter out onto the game.

yeah but you get to play with bigger guns in the army embarrassed

there is an absurd contradiction in being willing to send your kids off to kill or get killed and being morally outraged by people selling their body for sex. Perhaps if the government could introduce a "Fuck for England" scheme whereby a share of each payment to prostitutes went towards providing entertainment for the troops or was handed over to british companies to invest in markets abroad then it would become more acceptable to the conservative right?

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 11:44
Joseph K. wrote:
fruitloop wrote:
new-ageish monogamy-oriented beautiful soul sexuality

whats that? it's triggering all my blind hatred keywords angry tongue

Well, you see, there's vibrational energy in water which resonates on a quantumn level with the area of the brain known as Shatner's Basoon...

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 11:46

Okay, my post seems to have disappeared.

Odd.

Admin - there it is 2 posts up, dummy (re-post deleted)

Well it wasn't there before angry

fruitloop
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Dec 13 2006 12:10
Joseph K. wrote:
fruitloop wrote:
new-ageish monogamy-oriented beautiful soul sexuality

whats that? it's triggering all my blind hatred keywords angry tongue

Excellent. tongue

I guess it's a whole cluster of ideas, starting with the conception of sexuality as something that's simultaneously extraneous and natural, something pre-existing within yourself that you just need to 'connect to'. People who find dominance/submission, or unfamiliarity or whatever arousing are obviously disconnected somehow from their native sexuality, which is essentially pure and selfless and uncorrupted by capital and enculturation. Not that it wouldn't be fantastic if it were true, but unfortunately it's just more normative balls.

It's actually quite like Victorian sexuality in that the ideal tells you a great deal about what the reality isn't, in the sense that they had all these notions of propriety that masked all manner of perversion and near-institutionalised peadophila, whereas we have lots of ideas about the natural, 'brute fact' essence of sexuality that's not something that is just a construction of culture and the symbolic order, that's it's almost a physical fact like having two legs or a cock and as such is completely independent of capital and the spectacle.

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Dec 13 2006 14:16

Ping and Revol

Oh dear - you guys CAN come across as being a bit pompous at times..tongue

Grace has got it right!! I am playing Devils Advocate a bit tbh, and am teasing in my use of the word "lame" and it worked..watch Revol go..!!

In an OP, my aim is not to provide a sophisticated analysis as much as to open the floor and stimulate debate and yeah I may use a bit of irony to do so..

However in response to Pings point that i am suggesting just one reason for prostitution when there are several...I guess where I was coming from is that my particular interest is in the men who really can't function in any other way...THAT sub-section of men..so this OP COULD in theory end up focussing on either all causes of prostitution incl. this one OR a debate on male sexuality that focusses purely on why a certain sub-section of men suffer such terrible probs with sexual and emotional intimacy...

Love

LW X

Caiman del Barrio
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Dec 13 2006 14:29

So LW, you don't really believe that going to a prostitute necessarily entails being incapable of emotionally connecting with a woman? I'm not convinced...I hate it when people make controversial assertions and then attempt to cloak them in humour.

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Dec 13 2006 14:37
revol68 wrote:
i come across as fucking pompous?

I meant more Ping with the pompous bit tbh but I WAS right this wound you up.. tongue

I'm not the one who sets themselves up as the resident fucking conseullor

I haven't set myself up as anything..

and then spouts reactionary, sub loose women shite about the reasons men use prostitutes.

I offered one reason.. and there ARE some pretty damaged men who fit into that particular category..

maybe your just not as right on, and understanding as you think?

Maybe not!!!

But what you gotta realise is I don't think I know everything tbh - just my "bit" - when i start a thread it is genuinely cos i wanna share ideas and insights.. NOT cos i feel i have it all sussed..i feel i have a lot to learn... and a lot to teach/share..

Love

LW X

dara
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Dec 13 2006 14:39

as far as i can see, masculine heterosexuality generally functions around 'ownership' of women's bodies. i can think of people trying to get into the pants of a girlfriend by buying them dinner, gifts etc., which is basically trying to purchase sex/intimacy. Prostitution seems like a once-off and more simplified version of this.

Odd's points were very good, since he related prostitution to generalised discourses of sexuality. Sometimes people want to have sex without committment, but it can seem difficult when there exists a strong normative (& monogamous) relationship ideal.

I think calling people who use prostitutes emotionally insecure or whatever misses the point; both johns and prostitutes arise out of specific forms of sexuality, and are hardly just weird exceptions. (it seems that) Women are often encouraged to think of their bodies as something to be sold, and are simply encouraged to sell shrewdly, while men are encouraged to think of women's bodies as something to be purchased, the form of exchange varies (chocolates, flowers, jewellery, dinner, 50 bob for a handjob) but exchange remains the rule.

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Lone Wolf
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Dec 13 2006 14:44
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
So LW, you don't really believe that going to a prostitute necessarily entails being incapable of emotionally connecting with a woman? I'm not convinced...I hate it when people make controversial assertions and then attempt to cloak them in humour.

Alan

To clarify

No no I didn't say it entails that..at all..reread the OP - - i said I wasn't referring to the more casual client base but those who really don't know of any other way to connect..

It is quite interesting that peeps have gone into the issue of other reasons why men go to prostitutes and not looked at this one.. even tho the OP WAS about this reason..but hey I am happy for this to lead to a more general analysis as well..

powertotheimagi...
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Dec 13 2006 14:46
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chocolates, flowers, jewellery, dinner, 50 bob for a handjob

Sounds like a nice xmas list, although the last one is quite expensive.

dara
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Dec 13 2006 14:49
powertotheimagination wrote:
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chocolates, flowers, jewellery, dinner, 50 bob for a handjob

Sounds like a nice xmas list, although the last one is quite expensive.

i actually have no idea about prices on any of the things listed above.

Caiman del Barrio
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Dec 13 2006 14:52
dara wrote:
as far as i can see, masculine heterosexuality generally functions around 'ownership' of women's bodies. i can think of people trying to get into the pants of a girlfriend by buying them dinner, gifts etc., which is basically trying to purchase sex/intimacy. Prostitution seems like a once-off and more simplified version of this.

Well yeah kinda. You could extend that more generally to guys who buy girls drinks on nights out in the hope of them repaying them later on with some sort of action. Moreover, some girls are aware of this and use their sexual allure as a means of controlling men and acquiring what they want/need off them. Feminists who present the female as the submissive victim in every scenario ignore the complex nature of gender relations in, *gasp* I'm gonna say it, postmodernity.

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Devrim
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Dec 13 2006 14:53
powertotheimagination wrote:
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chocolates, flowers, jewellery, dinner, 50 bob for a handjob

Sounds like a nice xmas list, although the last one is quite expensive.

50 bob is £2.50. A bob is slang for a shilling, which is 5 new pence. If that seems expensive, how much do you usually pay?

Dev

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