Why DO so many lame men rely on prostitution and porn in order to "connect" with women/their sexuality..

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arf
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Dec 13 2006 21:02

yep, thats exactly the same thing.

twat.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 21:03

Hi

Quote:
most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

It's "especially" rather than "even supposedly" there. Anyway, fire away, in me your prayers for a dashing hero have finally been answered.

Love

LR

arf
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Dec 13 2006 21:10

let me ask you this revol, if it was a similar situation, if the murder and rape of irish people was occuring daily all over the world, if generations of your family members had been raped and beaten by the english who "loved" them, if most of your irish friends had at some point been raped or attempted raped by an english person, if if if if if,

and if you were discussing this right now, and some english person came into the conversation and said the equivalent of this:

"yeh but not all english are like that, and really the problem is your own attitude, and the attitude of all you pro irish fascists"

wouldnt you be just a little fucking bit fed up? wouldnt you think that the comment was just a little bit ignorant and irrelevant? and if it happened every single time you tried to raise the issue of violence against the irish, wouldnt you beginj to feel that it wasnt an isolated incident, and perhaps these people, who are supposedly on your side, supposedly pro irish, are in fact not on your side, and are actually doing everything in their power to stop the conversation from happening, and therefore are really putting effort into an anti irish agenda?

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 21:12
arf wrote:
i think this thread can be summed up thus:

most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

Yeah, but to be honest, that's mainly because rape and spousal abuse is such a turn on.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 21:16

Hi

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"yeh but not all english are like that, and really the problem is your own attitude, and the attitude of all you pro irish fascists"

Ha ha. That's the sort of thing that revol68 would say though. Fair enough too.

Love

LR

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 21:19
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
OK so instead of taking me up on my points and pushing the debate forward, you and Belfast have focused on ensuring that you "win" an argument by dragging up what someone said. Excellent. ;)

Are you arguing that I shouldn't drag silly things like what people say into debates? Genuinely baffled here :?

Quote:
Moving on, is the necessary material exchange involved in any sort of romance/courting a part of the social relation that supports prostitution, or is that a load of libewal feminist balls? Moreover, why automatically present the woman as the victim in this scenario? Anecdote: my mate's currently seeing this girl who apparently won't take the tube, so he rinsed £90 on cab fares when they went out on Friday. Of course she didn't contribute a penny. On my reading that kinda looks like she's milking him a little. Who's the victim there?

I'd argue that the problem with regarding the relationship between a man and a woman in a mutually consenting relationship as being the same as the one between a prostitute and a john goes far deeper than looking at who is the "victim".

It assumes that there is nothing more to male sexuality than the desire to "get some", that men are solely driven by sex. It regards the socialisation of men as something absolute, something inescapable over which men have no power. This ties into the victim thing though, which is where the Leninist roots of rad fem come in, false consciousness and all that.

It robs both parties of all agency, casting the woman as an unthinking victim and the man as a brutish slave to his own lust.

arf
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Dec 13 2006 21:20
madashell wrote:
arf wrote:
i think this thread can be summed up thus:

most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

Yeah, but to be honest, that's mainly because rape and spousal abuse is such a turn on.

and thats supposed to be funny to who? to people who havent been raped? wheres the joke madashell?

madashell - yet another fucking ignorant and totally insensitive twat.

i could sit and quote stats at you all fucking day to give you some evidence that, clearly, a lot of men do think that rape and spousal abuse is a MASSIVE turn on, because they keep doing it, over and over and over. they never seem to get tired of it. and other men never seem to get tired of defending them, or at least hiding what theyre doing by continuously changing the subject, blaming the women, or making funny little rape jokes.

it's such a turn on, isnt it? tosser.

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 21:24
arf wrote:
and thats supposed to be funny to who? to people who havent been raped? wheres the joke madashell?

madashell - yet another fucking ignorant and totally insensitive twat.

i could sit and quote stats at you all fucking day to give you some evidence that, clearly, a lot of men do think that rape and spousal abuse is a MASSIVE turn on, because they keep doing it, over and over and over. they never seem to get tired of it. and other men never seem to get tired of defending them, or at least hiding what theyre doing by continuously changing the subject, blaming the women, or making funny little rape jokes.

it's such a turn on, isnt it? tosser.

You've really got a fucking nerve, coming on here and saying shit like this:

Quote:
most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

Which is tatamount to accusing such men (which of course you knew this thread was full of, which is why you said it) of being vile misogynists at best and rapists at worst, without the slightest justification. Vile, offensive, essentialist shite.

And then you have the chutzpa to go off on one at me for reacting with sarcasm? Besides anything else, the implication of the comment is that rape and spousal abuse are fucking awful, the laughter is aimed at you and your half-witted politics, not the victims of sexual violence.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 21:34

Hi

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a brutish slave to his own lust

One day, this shall be my tag line.

Quote:
and thats supposed to be funny to who?

I wouldn't assume mad's trying to be funny here. If this is how you react, it's no wonder men won't answer your questions straightforwardly.

Quote:
And then you have the chutzpa to go off on one at me for reacting with sarcasm?

Come on, you like 'em spunky. I know you do.

Love

LR

arf
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Dec 13 2006 21:40

read the thread, you vile, misogynist fuckwit.

there's plenty of justification for how i feel, four pages of it so far. be as angry as you like at me, i dont give a toss, its obvious that a vile misogynist is going to take issue with me calling him one, i wouldnt imply it if i didnt expect that.

however, you have no justification whatsoever to be making rape jokes. thats just another illustration of your status as the previously mentioned vile misogynist. you can try and excuse it by calling it sarcasm, but it makes no difference to me whether it was a hold my fucking sides joke or a sneaky sarcastic dig joke. the misogynistic intent is obvious to even us half witted female victims of sexual violence.

now fuck off, twat.

arf
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Dec 13 2006 21:41
Quote:
If this is how you react, it's no wonder men won't answer your questions straightforwardly.

at least madashell can troll successfully. what sort of pathetic attempt is that?

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 21:44
arf wrote:
Everybody who disagrees with me is a sexist!

You came on here and basically blamed men in general for rape and sexual violence, are you really fucking surprised that pisses one or two people off?

Grow the fuck up roll eyes

arf
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Dec 13 2006 21:59
madashell wrote:
arf wrote:
Everybody who disagrees with me is a sexist!

You came on here and basically blamed men in general for rape and sexual violence, are you really fucking surprised that pisses one or two people off?

Grow the fuck up roll eyes

so who is to blame then, genius?

i never blamed 'men in general'. thats your own personal little spin.

as for whether i piss you off or not, who cares? i'm not here to keep you happy, to agree with you, or to keep quiet when you're being a fucking dick.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 22:00

Hi

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at least madashell can troll successfully. what sort of pathetic attempt is that?

Bless you. It's not even trying.

Quote:
there's plenty of justification for how i feel

You don't need any though. Tell us more about how you feel, it's fascinating.

Love

LR

arf
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Dec 13 2006 22:01

i take back that madashell can troll better than you, "Everybody who disagrees with me is a sexist!" was the lamest attempt i've seen so far.

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 22:03
arf wrote:
so who is to blame then, genius?

Rapists and people who hit their partners would be a good place to start if you're looking to assign blame.

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i never blamed 'men in general'. thats your own personal little spin.

So what the fuck was this supposed to mean then?

Quote:
most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

Quote:
as for whether i piss you off or not, who cares? i'm not here to keep you happy, to agree with you, or to keep quiet when you're being a fucking dick.

So everybody has to tip toe around the issues that you're sensitive about, but their feelings don't matter at all. Got it.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 22:07

Hi

arf, you've totally ruined LW's excellent thread. So much for sisterhood. You must be very proud.

Love

LR

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madashell
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Dec 13 2006 22:09

Not sure how serious LR is there, but that's a good point actually.

Sorry if I offended anybody unintentionally, what I said was uncalled for (though I stand by what I intended by it). I have a tendancy to lose my rag a bit sometimes and go off on one. Probably best to cut it out before this descends into a flame war.

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Devrim
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Dec 13 2006 22:28

I really don't understand the motivation of some people on this thread. I mean, it seems like some people think that being/going to a prostitute is morally wrong. As if it is any different than being/calling a plumber. It is just another form of wage labour, and if people hadn't bee bought up within a Judeo-Christian-Islamic anti-sex morality possibly wouldn't be seen that way.

Are these people saying that prostitutes are 'bad'?

Are the saying that the punters are 'bad'?

I have never been to a prostitute, nor have I ever called a plumber for that matter (I can do both of these things myself when desperate), but also I don't make moral judgements about people who do go to /call them, or people who do this, or that job.

The whole idea that prostitutes are particularly exploited stems from the idea that 'normal' wage labour is ok. It seems to suggest that there is not a problem with the fact that people are destroyed daily by the inhumanity of enforced labour, and say that there is something particularly degrading about selling your body for sex, as opposed to ruining it in a factory for eight hours a day, five days a week for your whole life.

Yes, women are exploited, and particularly so in Islamic countries. Gender relationships are deeply fucked up, but is prostitution a reflection of this fact, or is it responsible for it.

Is sexual violence a characteristic of the deep alienation that effects all of humanity under capital, or is it just because men are evil?

The latter view falls in line with al of the Islamic-Judeo-Christian hatred of women, and offers nothing to those who are struggling for a liberation of humanity.

Devrim

Caiman del Barrio
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Dec 13 2006 22:29
arf wrote:
i think this thread can be summed up thus:

most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

OK fuck you. I was wondering how long it'd be before you came out with this kinda shit.

lem
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Dec 13 2006 22:33

I don't like arf sad

arf
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Dec 13 2006 22:36

yeh, you lot were really taking this thread seriously. thats the first laugh ive had on this thread so far.

madashell- im not asking anyone to tiptoe round any issue. if i make you mad, then so be it, at least ive raised some emotion in you. but there is a difference between disagreement and shouting and arguing, all of which can be positive and lead to positive outcomes, and what you did, which was just really insensitive and unnecessary.

but you have apologised and thats fine by me. i also say dumbass things when im angry, as you can probably tell.

and this quote

Quote:
most men, even supposedly humanitarian or socialist or "enlightened" men, will find a million pathetic and petty ways to avoid answering difficult questions about why they and other men treat women like dirt.

means exactly what it says. i dont take it back. ive had these arguments a thousand times and in my experience what has happened here is typical. i did say 'most' men, not all men, not men in general. i didnt blame most men for rape, but i do hold them responsible for deliberately ignoring or avoiding dealing with the subject of violence against women. that is not the same thing as calling them rapists. maybe you think its all semantics but im not as negative about men as you seem to believe. if i were i wouldnt be here having this discussion, id be doing my own little seperatist thing as sometimes i am sorely tempted to do. but i havent lost faith in men, and thats why watching threads like this descending into pages and pages of excuses and avoidance upset me so fucking badly.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 22:48

Hi

Quote:
I mean, it seems like some people think that being/going to a prostitute is morally wrong. As if it is any different than being/calling a plumber. It is just another form of wage labour, and if people hadn't bee bought up within a Judeo-Christian-Islamic anti-sex morality possibly wouldn't be seen that way.

Good old Dev. What a guy.

Love

LR

lem
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Dec 13 2006 22:48

Just a couple of questions arf, cos I feel the same way about you as you do about most people on these baords (in terms of engaging with them, I mean: "a million petty ways" etc.). But this is my own fault for not reading any feminism.

If one can draw a line down relationships like that, and the majority of men are responsible for the rape and abuse of the majority of women, how do you explain the level of false consciousness of women. That question isn't loaded, and doesn't sound it.

I guess I have behaved unacceptedly towards a women. Why is this an attack on all women? Because radical feminists say so, because they aim to proselytize them? Btw, I have no need to justify that behaviour, but I do feel that you aren't very convincing. The only point of substance you have brought is a list of oppressions, which one can do for anything.

smile

lem
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Dec 13 2006 22:55

Sorry, what I mean to be saying is that I have no need to make excuses, partly because I am not part of any socialist netowrk, and that I accept that some of my behaviour is wrong. But I genuinely dobn't find you very convincing. Shrug.

lem
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Dec 13 2006 23:07

Hmmm, Now everyone is going to think I'm a rapist confused

As I understand, I can see how radical feminism might be good for women, with a agenda that uncritical how could it not be! But why should I consider radical feminism more imprtant than the messianic phenomenological socialism that I care for; sorry to be so crass but why should I care for it more than, say, third worldism (?), or any number of oppressions, say war?

Pepe
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Dec 13 2006 23:23
Caiman del Barrio wrote:

Moving on, is the necessary material exchange involved in any sort of romance/courting a part of the social relation that supports prostitution, or is that a load of libewal feminist balls?

no, its radical feminist balls.

Pepe
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Dec 13 2006 23:25
Jack wrote:
Oh and one other thing, this out of more curiousity.

The thing about prostitution being the worlds oldest profession is balls, isn't it?

Midwifery, I heard. I suppose it depends what you mean by profession.

Pepe
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Dec 13 2006 23:30
Devrim wrote:
The whole idea that prostitutes are particularly exploited stems from the idea that 'normal' wage labour is ok. It seems to suggest that there is not a problem with the fact that people are destroyed daily by the inhumanity of enforced labour, and say that there is something particularly degrading about selling your body for sex, as opposed to ruining it in a factory for eight hours a day, five days a week for your whole life.

But wouldn't there still be factories in a communist society? Would there still be prostitution? I won't mind toiling for the common good, but I'm not going to sleep with someone when I don't want to.

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Lazy Riser
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Dec 13 2006 23:37

Hi

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I won't mind toiling for the common good, but I'm not going to sleep with someone when I don't want to.

But how do you know what's for the common good?

Love

LR

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