Will The Working Class Ever Reach Class conciousness?

What do you mean exactly?

Are you asking two seperate questions - one: can we ever achieve class consciousness, and two: can you have a revolution without leaders?

Are you saying no uprising has ever been revolutionary? Or just in this country?

Class consciousness always fades in times of prosperity, if theres a deppression or the oil crash mentioned elsewhere in a few years, there will be a surge in class consciousness.

Yes we can. If I didn't believe that I'd stop doing what I do.

Its possible, but i somehow doubt it will actually happen, the truth is though what choice do we have, we can either a) work for class struggle with the long term goal of revolution in mind

b)put our faith in the bourgeoisie, or the state capitaliststs or just sit around moping about it

In the words of Rosa Luxemburg, there are two alternatives for humanity, socialism or barbarism, and within the next 100 years that pretty much is the case either the proletariat wins a great victory of some sort in the class struggle, we all go extincy or due to the environemental meltdown caused by capitalism most of us die off and the remainder live a barbaric existence in constant competiton for the sparse resources of a dying world.

To be honest, i think there is a fairly high chance that most of will waste a good part of our lives pathetically in search of the revolution that will never happen, but it could be a lot worse and given our 'fortunate' (if thats the right word for it) position in such a large imperialist power, not to try for it would be a gross betrayal of the human race.

To summarise, no we're probably fucked, but so what

john

I totally agree, but that won't happen for well over a decade at best

john

But although ive lost almost all revolutionary faith, i havent been turned off anarchism. You look at what the big anarcho unions achieved in their heyday, it was worth it without the revolution. Even being proud of your class and it's culture is a little victory in itself i think.

Besides, anarchism has always been better at recognising the achievements of the individual!

No mate, sounds reformist to me

Capitalism is an unstable system, anarchism provides us with a non-compromising alternative, and like it says elsewhere the only thing that changes the world is like minded people banding together

Perhaps, perhaps.

more to the fuckin point will any of u useless snivelling anarcho liberals reach revolutionary conciousness! what a pretentious fucking topic.

Look at the thread that goes "anarchy + amger = destruction"

na we'll still be pathetic tho, afterall despite the revolutionary sloganeering this is an internet message board

john

Er Revol, do you feel like a big man coming onto internet message boards and being rude? I don't get it, did you not learn simple manners as a child? Is this how you talk to people face to face? Fair enough you disagree with what people are saying but you've got two choices:

1) Put your own point across and try to win people over to your way of thinking (while leaving yourself open minded enough to feel that there may be things that others can teach you)

2) Not give a fuck. Who cares? It's just a silly discussion on an internet message board.

Overall, you gotta remember mate that Enrager is an anti-authoritarian resource and community building project. When you're being arsey, you're not doing a very good job at the community building. I mean, what new person to Anarchism is gonna want to ask questions if they're worried they'll get their head ripped off by some seasoned Anarcho-old timer?

Im glad someone else was coming to that conclusion.

look my point was that we are talking about the working class as an object something external to be acted on by us good concious proles. The implied elitism is disgusting.

im just increasingly fed up with people on this board implying that the working class needs to listen to us and everything would be great. The masses aren't a homogenous blob of matter waiting to be introduced to some great idea for them to act.

a prime example of this kinda thinkin is in posts talkin about how we should speak to the working class, we are part of the working class. Whether it is people implying that we need to act like working class caricatures or mimic the pseudo professionlism and respectability of lawyers and politicians it all points to a form of elitism.

as for being an old timer well im only 22 so thats bollox

Good post revol. The only quibble I have is when you say "we are part of the working class" I think there are certainly some anarchists who are not and can't shake of their patronising attitude.

Yeah revol, I 100% agree with you. In fact, out of every single post I've ever seen you put up, I don't think I've EVER disagreed massively with the content. It's just that I don't see why you've got to be so arsey about it. I doubt very highly you'd get so aggressive in a face to face discussion so why do you do it on these boards? I mean, if we were in the pub and we disagreed over the role of reformist TU's in the class struggle, would you flip out? No, of course not. And if you would then I don't want to meet you really...you sound like a nutter!

As for being an old timer, I was refering more to experience rather than actual age. I'm only 18 but I've been involved in Anarchist activity for over two years now and I know that sometimes even I can be intimidating for people who've only just started to think about possibly getting involved. How many times have you been at a meeting where it's been all the regulars chatting, discussing, using in-jokes and activist words to make their points all the while new-comers are just sitting in the corner, wide-eyed, silent and baffed by everything that's going on around them and then never turn up again coz it's all too innacessible? You see what I'm getting at?

Basically, I'm just saying you've got great politics but you don't have to be an arse, it doesn't make you more working class

Peace

Dear WTY,

Yes, the working class can achieve class consciousness. Indeed, as the only revolutionary class the proletariat is the only class that can become truely conscious of its position in class society and of its historic mission.

However, the process by which the class comes to consciousness is tortuous and by no means easy! You may find the following texts produced by the ICC relevant.

The 'Perspective of Communism' series (particularly Part 3)

http://www.internationalism.org/specialtexts/WR025_poc.htm

Point 16a of the ICC's Platform also deals with the question of Class Consciousness

http://www.internationalism.org/plat/icc_platform.htm

The ICC also has a pamphlet on this question, aptly entitled 'Communist Organisation and Class Consciousness'. Details here:

http://www.internationalism.org/contact_icc/iccpams.htm

Any comments on these are welcome, either here or by e-mail via our site.

Fraternally,

WR,

Section in Britain of the ICC.

A word from Guy Debord here, paraphrased as I don't have the text to hand;

The revolutionary thinkers may believe that they can use aspects of society such as mass media to bring about change, but this disregards the fundamental nature of such institutions, which is to give orders.

From 'notes on the society of the spectacle' 1986.

The reason the masses are so hard to communicate with on such issues is the very nature in whch they have gained information in the past, ie from an (implied or otherwise) 'higher power'. The challenge is to show people that no higher power truly exists, which cannot be achieved by preteding, in whatever form, to be superior to those you would educate.

True change can only be affected by appealing genuinely to reason, and not attempting to subvert it.

Aye this is a subject I've been thinking about a lot. I feel that "the masses" cannot be in control because they are systematically conditioned to be ignorant stupid and greedy. This is done through manipulation of the ego/animal consciousness. Until more people understand how the mind works then, yes the "revolutions" are just resetting the capitalist meter and swapping the ruler. We look for leaders as a part of our animal thought processes - we have to rise above this individually and help others do so.

Good luck.

i think its good that the ''masses'' as you put it are 'greedy'

If every worker just sat back and said ''oh well thats my lot then'' its hardly likely that we'd ever over-throw capitalism is it. People need to demand MORE than what capitalism can give them not less.

''we look for leaders accrding to animal thought processes'' that means nothing without context

Anarchists have figureheads and key activists, we might not call them leaders but they fulfill something like that role in revolutionary situations.

But i'm talking about people like goldman, haywood, makhno or durrutti not internet losers like most of us lot .

I think what happens materially is far more important than what happens in idealist terms.

john :red:

a couple of points which may have been touched upon but i'll add anyway:

-Is anyone here class conscious?

-If so what action do you take which elucidates, furthers and displays this class consciousness?

- Revolutions/uprisings tend to occur when all the 'experts' and economists are saying how well everything is, ie how smoothly and profitably the system is working. Eg Paris 68, mexico 68, the anti-capitalist uprisings in argentina, mexico, globally after francis fukuyama pretentiously and falsely pronounced 'the end of history' ie the end of class conflict.

-it follows from the above that despite all the pathetic whimperings of careerist lefties, you cant sit back and calculate the exact historical point of uprising or revolution and just wait for it to happen.

There is far too much ideology concerning revolution, patronising and moronic 'debates' about when the revolution will HAPPEN (i'm not refering to anyone on this page).

We need to ask what WE'RE doing, we need to communicate ideas in the workplace, in the street, the community, we need to organise and act on our principles, it is only through one to one communication and action that consciousness can be elucidated, not through vain marxist forums and teach ins.